WiCX Talk Trends: From Trad Wives to Trailblazers – Can Women Have it All? with Jill Donahue
Episode #002 Show Notes:
Clare:
Welcome to the second episode of the first series of the ‘Women in CX Talk Trends’ podcast, a new series dedicated to bringing you the latest news and insights from female leaders in CX and technology.
On a mission to ensure women are at the centre of important industry conversations, join me, Clare Muscutt, and my inspiring guests as we debate the hottest topics and explore current trends, helping you to stay ahead of the curve of the latest developments shaping customer, employee and women’s experiences.
In today’s episode, sponsored by CallMiner, I’ll be chatting with Jill Donahue, Senior Director of Business Strategy & Analytics, about the question: Can women really have it all?
We’ll explore women’s evolving choices around marriage and children, the ongoing wage gap, and shifting attitudes toward social and economic issues.
We’ll discuss the critical need for investment in their career development, the "broken rung" hindering women from stepping into leadership roles and now as women are being asked to return to the office, the impact that the loss of flexible working will have on the future talent pipeline.
Clare:
Hi Jill, welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX Talks Trends podcast. How are you doing today?
Jill:
Great! How are you, Clare? It's good to see you.
Clare:
Yeah, I'm good. It's Friday afternoon here in the UK and we've got sun for a change, which in October is rare. Yeah, I've got plenty of layers on today. And also welcome to everybody who's listening or watching wherever you are as well. So, just to kick things off, Jill, I'm sure the audience would like to get to know you a little better. Can you tell us a bit about how you arrived at where you are today and your role at CallMiner?
Jill:
Yeah, I've been there in October. So yes, I remember.
Sure. I took a very circuitous route to get to CallMiner. I had a lot of jobs early on in my career that were the only company to do what they did. And so when I would go interview for a different company or a different job, I couldn't just say, I am an accountant, or I am a this, I am a that because they were different. So I always had to focus on what my skills were and things like that. I was working in things like…
…telecom and mortgage-backed securities and finance recruiting and process consulting and operational audit and all kinds of different things. But about, let's see, I'd say six or seven years ago, I found myself in the customer experience industry. I was working in consulting and consulting customers on their customer experience, and I loved it. I just I think it's a fun industry and it touches everybody. I mean, everyone's a customer of something.
While we were doing some projects and some things like that, I became aware of conversational intelligence and tools like CallMiner and got to know some of them. And then CallMiner was looking, you know, for- I started off at CallMiner running our BPO team because I had come from a BPO. That's where my consulting experience was.
And so, looked over here, got the job, over the last two years, I would say, I've been running our professional services organisation over here, so all of the business analysts that our customers can utilise to help them unlock the value from CallMiner they all roll up to me. And it's been really fun. It's a really talented group of people. So I'm enjoying it immensely. I know we might talk about it in a minute, but we just got back from our customer conference down in Dallas, Texas. And it was great and so fun. Yeah, that's how I ended up here.
Clare:
Yeah, and day one was the Women's Group Conference, So, well, the Women's Conference. Yeah, which leads me perfectly into my second question, which is actually I going to ask you to talk a little bit about CallMiner's Women Employee Resource Group, what inspired it and how it's grown since you started it. And I'm sure that will include in-person events for your customers as well.
Jill:
Do you want us to women's summit? Yes. Yes.
Absolutely. So when I was at a company, it's a different name now, but it was a telecom company probably about ten years ago. I first heard about employee resource groups and this company had a lot of different ones, you know, veterans and LGBTQ plus and a women's one. They had, it was kind of neat. They had a day where you could go down to, we had a cafeteria on campus, and it was a large campus company, and they had, you know, each one had sort of a booth to say, hey, here's what we do.
And I thought that was so neat. And so I walked up to the women's one and said, what is all this about? And they talked about, you know, connecting with women and supporting them and bringing in speakers and things like that. And so I joined the one at that company. And at that time I was still, you know, I was probably like 10 years into my career. So, it is somewhat still early, and I loved it. I found it incredibly helpful. It was great to meet women and especially ones across the different areas of the company that I didn't normally interact with.
And so they had different perspectives and it was nice to get to know people that weren't in my immediate work group. So when I joined CallMiner, we had kicked off a DEI council and I was part of that as well. And one day we decided to discuss, should we do some employee resource groups here?
And so we decided each one needed a sponsor, someone who was going to run it and was passionate about it. And I immediately raised my hand. I want to do a women's one. The one that I was able to be a part of was so impactful to me. And I wanted to create that and be able to do that here. And so we have, and we're the longest-running ERG that we have at CallMiner, and it's been great. And to kind of parry it into what you were asking about too at our conference.
We've been running a women's summit now for the last three years. This was our third year on Monday. Thank you. Yeah. And before that, and before, now, our conference used to be in person, and then the pandemic and we had some virtual meetings, much like everybody else. So back when it was in person before that, they'd wanted to do, and this was before I joined the company, they wanted to do a women's thing, but it kind of ended up being more of like a happy hour and just kind of people getting together and chatting.
And so three years ago was the first full women's summit and someone at our company named Lauretta Campestre has been on this podcast, too. She really spearheaded the creation of the first one, and it was outstanding and ever so, and of course, I attended that very first one when I was new to CallMiner and said, my goodness, I want to be involved in this. And then, you know, I was super involved last year and this year, and this was our third year, and we all agreed this was the best one yet. We had the most diverse audience. We had a lot more males attending.
Clare:
Yasss!
Jill:
We had a panel on allyship that just kind of brought down the house. There was standing room only. And so it couldn't have gone better. And we're just so excited to continue to expand it and bring it to the CallMiner Conference each year.
Clare:
Well, that's amazing. And I know, having been in the CX Tech Space event rooms as a speaker myself, usually it is predominantly male audiences, isn't it as well? And I know talking to women at those kinds of events, they say actually a lot of women have put off coming because they know it's just going to be wall-to-wall guys. So being able to create that safe space for women, I think, is a sign to say, you know, what you're wanted here, we're going to put something on the Monday, especially to welcome you, to be part of this bigger event.
And a lot of companies don't do that. Yeah, I talked to a lot of women, and they definitely feel excluded, particularly from like the data and technology-type events more broadly. And all the speakers are always men and like, just water or guys.
Jill:
Yeah. And, you know, I think what's been helping too is being able to show the value of it to attendees so that they can go back to the people that are approving their travel and things like that. Because I think in the past, you know, sometimes, the women that were coming to our conference, the people approving their travel would say, well, there's a couple of workshops at that same time. We need you to go to the technical one and make sure you're doing everything you can to learn how to technically use our software.
But you know, the rest of the conference is all about that. You can attend a ton of breakout sessions. And this year, we talked about things like overcoming perfectionism, you know, leadership styles and things like that. That improves people's performance at work no matter what role you're in. And so I think that the secret's out, and that's been getting out, and that's been allowing, you know, more people to be able to get that extra day, come early and attend the Women's Summit.
Clare:
Yeah, and get so much more out of it in terms of your own professional development too. That's so cool. And you mentioned this allyship panel that brought down the house, which again, perfect segue into my next question, because I know allyship is a subject that's super close to your heart. And I'm going to bring in some stats here, which is according to the latest global gender gap report, it can take up to 134 years for women to achieve equality to men. That's almost five generations.
Jill:
That's it.
Clare:
And that is such a super daunting timeline. It's clear that something really has to change now. I know allyship particularly, male allyship is a real big focus for you. As you mentioned, you already had that panel and sharing that not only thought leadership, but bringing people together to discuss it. I know that it's a big focus for you. So why exactly do you I think it's so critical for men to actively support and advocate for gender equality? And how do you I think male allyship can help to accelerate that progress? Big question.
Jill:
Yeah, lots of pieces. So first of all, in the allyship panel that we had, we were super excited to have our CEO join the panel. And the best part was when we asked him to join, he said, I'm so honored. I'll clear my schedule. I'll do anything I need to do to be there. And that was outstanding. So we had three people on the panel, a woman program owner who'd been working with us for quite some time, an analyst, and they've actually been an analyst for two different customers of ours and then our CEO.
And, you know, he said during it as well, and what I think is why it's important for males is because there's this amount of privilege. And, you know, he said the first thing you have to do is reflect on what kind of privilege you have, you know, because people have it and that that's okay. So reflect on it, accept it, and then use it for good.
So I think that, you know, in corporate America and especially in our industry, like we talked about, it's still pretty male dominated. So we need the help of those individuals to help women and other, yeah, other minority or marginalized groups. Yeah, I was going to say it's funny, yeah. I used to say minority when I had been trying not to because I'm like,
Clare:
…minorities…not a minority right we're 50 % of the population!
Jill:
A lot of these groups are starting to be the majority of people, but still marginalised, which again, you know, a whole other subject. But I think, you know, a lot of them are on boards and in leadership and, know, so using their help is really helpful and them being self-aware enough to recognise the privilege they have, and then use that for good for things like this. Like our CEO, right? You go to a conference and you want to hear the CEO speak. That's amazing, right?
And so he identified this location is doing so. And then we were able to bring up things that, you know, a lot of men aren't aware of. I would say, you know, one of the most impactful moments in that panel is our analyst, they brought up a question and they said, you you can, you never can really put yourself in someone else's shoes, you know, but you can listen to them and try and understand what it's like.
So they used an example and they said, for example, ask your sisters, daughters, grandmas, mothers, what it feels like to go to the doctor and not be believed. And you should have heard the room. Every woman was like, yes, absolutely. And most men, if not every man was like, what? That's a thing? I mean, some of my analysts on my team came up to me afterwards and they said, I had no idea that was a thing. I've never experienced that. Can you tell me more?
Clare:
But, yeah.
Jill:
And I said that. And so I think that, you know, just learning and expanding your experiences is helpful in being an ally. And especially when men have some of the ear to the leadership or the boards and things like that within companies, you know, use that for a positive influence.
Clare:
Yeah, so that's true of any privilege, isn't it? Not just in a male sense, but yeah, how do you use that for good? That's really powerful. I was just reflecting on the fact that I suppose like gender equality is not something that women can solve alone, right? We need equality in that conversation and for it to be a shared agenda, because women fighting on their own for equality is not really gonna shift the dial. So yeah, I definitely agree...
Jill:
Absolutely.
Clare:
…that we need to work together on equality. And for me, I think allyship, particularly in the workplace is critical. And, you know, I think it's more than allyship, isn't it? It's that actual active sponsorship, actually like actively promoting the achievements of women. I know in big corporate where I worked, there were a lot of occasions where I was the only woman in the room and men that were allies would interrupt someone who just cut me off and said, hang on a second, Clare was speaking.
And even just like small gestures like that, where they recognise typical dominant behaviours and actually speak up and say, hang on a second, Clare was talking. Like the impact that that had like on me and my confidence was absolutely huge. And then to have, I suppose, male advocates and sponsors, like you said, quite often they're closer to the top table, right?
And being able to help to open doors for women. And I know talking to some men that they feel worried about doing that because of how it might be perceived. And also, yeah, so I think being able to have that role model and those examples of like strong, confident male leaders who aren't afraid of what might be said about that and to make their intentions clear. I support and advocate for women. We need more of that. So having your CEO clearing his diary to make space for that conversation, I think is a really powerful sign, isn't it?
Jill:
Well, and I love that you mentioned sponsorship, because one of the concepts that we've discussed in our monthly meetings of the Women's Employee Resource Group is mentorship versus sponsorship and how you can... Absolutely. And I think that, you know, for a long time, a lot of people thought it was just the same thing, but the more we talk about it, it's not. It's, you know, mentorship being, yeah, I'm going to give you my advice and, you we talk and I'm going to kind of sponsorship is really, you know, advocating for you when you're not in the room.
Clare:
Yeah, it's different. Yeah.
Jill:
And I felt like that was always the best description that I'd heard of it. And most decisions about your career get made when you aren't in the room. You don't, you don't get to have that conversation about what type of raise you're going to get necessarily with the people who are deciding it. You get to have it with your direct manager a lot of times, but you know, with the finance and the HR people that have to, you know, pull all the levers and put all the numbers in the spreadsheet, you don't say things about promotions and things like that. So truly having an active sponsor makes such a bigger impact, I think, than a mentor. Not saying mentors aren't great. There's a role for both in multiple of each, but it is a difference.
Clare:
Yeah, no, it's important to draw that distinction, isn't it? So I've got some more data here, some more stats, and it's actually, it's actually a LinkedIn from this year, and it shows something really scary, actually. And it described a continued erosion of women in leadership. So in 2022, the global hiring rate for women in leadership roles was over 38%, but that steadily declined each year, and is now at 36%. So 2 % drop.
Jill:
I don't I think that.
Clare:
And this drop, though it may seem small, really shows a significant step back in the fight for gender equality, especially at a time where progress should be accelerating. So I just thought I'd ask you, why do you think we're seeing this decline in women's leadership roles? What do you think some of the causes might be?
Jill:
Oh my gosh, I think there's so many. think one of them being, they're kind of two, but related to each other, would be the pay gap and the rise of dual working households. So when, you know, things like the pandemic hit and certain things like that, if you have a dual working household, and let's say for all things being equal, if you and your partner or spouse, you know, have the same job, the same stress and all that, if women are making 70, what is it typically 70 to 80 %? on the dollar as the men, the person who's making the less money is going to be the one that steps back to take care of the household or the children when in the pandemic there was a childcare issue. And so naturally, if you're just looking at the numbers, that makes sense. And that's unfortunate because think that's driving people away. think there's sort of a new move to under consumption.
Jill:
You know, I think both you and I were like, rising up through corporate America in the like 90s and 2000s and 2010s. And it just kind of was this go, go, go, climb, climb, climb, and just kind of got swept up in it, you know? And so it was, let's be a leader. Let's try for as hard as you can. And a lot of people, not just women, but I do I think that this is affecting women as well, of course. And probably mostly after the pandemic took a step back and said, what do I really need? You know, do I really need all these things?
Do I really need extra or what do I really need? And sometimes I think that, you know, the leadership is losing out. It's hard work. And some people, men and women, are looking at it and saying, hmm, I don't know if that's what I'm really looking for right now. I have what I need. And then in the leadership positions themselves, I mean, you know the feeling, it's more work. So if you're looking at that leadership position and you're looking at the peers that you might have.
The male peers and you're like, okay, so we're going to have the same job, the same stress, the same authority, the same, but we're going to get paid significantly less. You know, no, thank you. And so think that for me, the biggest difference is the pay gap, but I think it is showing up in so many different ways. And that is what people are doing. I think the second piece of it is that's the largest one. And then the other one too, is I think that, you know, men and women, women,
are different in how they approach things. And I think that, you so many researchers and people are just looking into these things constantly. And one of the things that has always stuck out to me is men will typically ask for what they want or go after things when they I think maybe like they're 70 or 80 % qualified. They'll look at all these things and be like, I've got most of it. Let's go for it. Let's go for that leadership role. Let's go for that. You know, and women tend to make sure we're a hundred percent qualified first.
I was talking to somebody in our women's employee resource group and we were talking about this and she said, yeah, there's this job that I really want to go for, but the one thing is it's a travel position and I can't travel because of, you know, responsibilities I have at home. And I said, is that the only thing? Is that like, are you qualified for the rest of it? And she said, yeah. And I said, well, let's, let's go. I want to help you. Let's go for it. Let's at least see.
You never know unless you ask, know, apply for it. And a lot of companies anymore, you know, there's so much remote and we're doing this across the Atlantic Ocean. Yeah, there's so many opportunities now. I just want to be like, you know, just because it says that don't let that hold you back. Go for it. And sometimes I wonder if, you know, that is having, you know, kind of holding people off too. I mean, I remember it's another travel thing, but we used to post…
Clare:
Yeah.
Jill:
…at an old job I had and it was up to 50 % travel. And we would joke between us who had the job, like, do you ever travel that much? No, do you? Why are they putting that on the job description, right? Well, how many people probably didn't apply to that job because they couldn't do 50 % travel and it turned out that that was not accurate anyway. So I think there's a lot of that. Now, the third thing I will say is I always say you don't have to be in a leadership role to be a leader.
Jill:
And I think another reason that maybe, you know, so that's talking about leadership roles and jobs and things like that. But if you're just talking about leadership in general, I think sometimes women shy away from it because it really puts yourself out there and, know, puts yourself out there for like ridicule and things like that. And, I mean, it's, that's true for any person, but I think that, you know, that's a hard thing to do. And some people are.
I think some women just say it's not worth it. And how hard it's been for us historically, it really takes some amazing people to break through that barrier. And I think too, that part of it can be very demoralizing that we've been doing this for so long and trying so hard. And it's still, like you said, what, five generations to get to equality? Sometimes you hear some of those statistics and just I think, you know, what can I possibly do?
So hopefully anyone who has thought that is listening to you and I, it's like, keep going. You can do something, you know? And I would love to like share that message. Every little bit counts, you know, take that step into leadership. Find, a mentor, find a sponsor, find both. They're different. You need both. You need multiple. But I do I think it's a lot of things like that that might be happening.
And then, you know, top down, just the system itself. When companies are starting to tighten the belt, which they have in recent times with the economy, DEI really takes a hit. And I'm sure you probably have a whole nother list of stats from the articles that say the same thing, that unfortunately, know, DEI initiatives and support and awareness, all of those take a hit when companies are tightening the belt. So, you know, there's things that we women can do to help it, but at the same time, you got to change the system.
Clare:
Hahaha
Jill:
There's only so much we can do and we shouldn't have to be the ones that change it for us. I want to change it for ourselves, but we can't do it like you said by ourselves.
Clare:
So much to unpick there. Gosh, where to begin? So I might start from the top. So we were talking about the reasons that this 2 % drop had happened over the last couple of years. So I agree there's a lot to do with the pandemic in that societally, there is still a greater expectation on women to take the lion's share of childcare.
So even if Mum and Dad have equal pay, as in they're earning the same amount, they've both got high pressure jobs. The expectation is still that Mum would do the lion's share of the caretaking. When the schools all got closed and the lockdowns are happening, were far more considerably impacted by those changes.
And I don't know if you've heard this as well, but like I heard a lot of women talking about like losing their confidence during that time because they had to have such a shift in being like 90 % Mum in the home. They lost like a piece of themselves during that time when they had to do the homeschool and everything else. And I don't know whether like now there's this rush to bring people back to the office where a lot of women actually found a good middle ground by being able to be that present parent and go for the school runs and because they weren't in the office or they weren't being expected to travel so much. And now a lot of big companies are like, no, we want you back. And for women or the caregiver, let's say that could also equally be the guy, like losing that flexibility also is going to have a significant impact, isn't it?
So I think there was probably like two years where women stopped progressing because they were trying to full-time parent and full-time work and then kind of coming out like how some of those more inclusive ways of working and now being pulled back again. And I think that's kind of have another further, further impact going forward. So I can anticipate maybe that's going to continue to drop until things even out again. And something else that you mentioned was something that often used to get called a glass ceiling that now I think is becoming a glass cliff. So women getting promoted into these senior roles where they've broken through the glass ceiling and then end up being put on a glass cliff and effectively being put at risk of being pushed over. Have you heard of that term? No? Glass cliff? Yeah, talked about it in relation actually to mainly to like female politicians in the UK but definitely for like senior women and…
Jill:
I was just going to say, this is interesting.
Clare:
…leadership as well because of the difference in like male and female leadership. There was something that happened recently, I saw it on the news, where like a woman captain of a ship, the ship sank and it became all about the fact that she was a woman captain. So gender being used... never ever. Yeah.
Jill:
…because no ship has ever sunk before.
Clare:
But business is going through difficult times or there being like challenges and there's a woman in charge. It then being her gender that's being brought into it is because she's a female leader. So yeah, I think it's interesting to see that transition from glass ceilings now, because there is so much, I suppose, like equality being built into law, particularly in the UK, like discrimination against women is written into law. You can't do it. So more women have made progress, but then get put on these glass cliffs now broke through glass ceiling onto glass cliff and off you go, which is really worrying. And then I thought it was really interesting what you were saying about the change in the way people perceive success and life. And I think it's kind of that capitalist culture. And I know when we've caught up previously, we were talking about things like trad wives emerging as a trend, like, yeah, so…
Jill:
My gosh. Yeah.
Clare:
…like women on Instagram actually adopting the 1950s role of motherhood and being home to like cook your husband dinner and looking after the children and actually fully embracing that as like the answer to you know that question.
Jill:
Yeah, I think, yeah, my issue with the tradwives, know, the hashtag tradwives or traditional wives, you know, I don't like trying to tell other people what to do with their time and how they want to live their life. That's fine. But I think it's the, like, the social media of it all and like making it this cool, fun thing and like trying to gather others into it. You know, I think it makes it just feel like we're going backwards.
Clare:
No, of course.
Jill:
You know, it's like we've had all these, leadership and empowerment and, you know, go after yourself. And now these people are saying, come be in this cool thing called hashtag tradwives, you know? And again, like if a person wants to be that in their relationship, power to them, but to try and recruit almost and like seek out and say like, this is a new movement, ladies, let's all do this. That's the part that to me just feels so backwards. Like we're going, you know, backwards.
Clare:
…try to buy this.
Jill:
With so many different things. And I know, you know, in the US the repeal of, you know, not to get to politics, but the repeal of Roe versus Wade, there's just a lot of different facets all of a sudden that feels like we're going backwards. And it's, and that can just be so demoralising, you know?
Clare:
Roe vs Wade.
But it's interesting though, because you also mentioned, you know, kind of like the naughties 2010s. It was all about Cheryl Sunberg, lean in, wasn't it? It was all about boss babe and girl boss. like you said, you know, being kind of pushed into being women that have it all. But they weren't saying, you know, have a career and marry someone who'll stay home and look after the kids. It was like, you can have both. And the reality is, this is another statistic that I think is really interesting, like having kids.
Takes up 60% of your attention. Having a career takes up 60% of your attention. Having a marriage or a partner takes up 60 % of your attention. And there's no physical possibility that any one single person can do all three of those things simultaneously and have it all. And I don't know whether like this, things like the Trad Wives movement is kind of like a counter to that to say, actually, I'm gonna choose one thing and we're gonna put 100 % into it.
And it just so happens that this is more societally acceptable than if I was a woman choosing to put 100% into my career and not choose that to be the children. Do you know what mean? Even when I say it out loud, like, but men don't have that challenge, do they? Like they get to be 100% career. And nobody bats an eyelid, but if a woman makes that choice, makes that decision. And another interesting statistic is I read on the news this morning actually that by 2033, it's going to be 38 % of women are going to be unmarried and not having children in the US.
Jill:
That's terrifying.
Clare:
But it's terrifying, but also like interesting, right? Because like women are also now exercising their right to choose not to have children or follow that traditional route and just avoid all of those problems. So we can focus on whatever we want.
Jill:
Yeah! Yeah, well, I only say it's terrifying from the perspective of population and things like that, because it's not like someone else can step in to do that. But I think you're right, they're making their own choices. with tradwives, the system and the patriarchy isn't common for tradwives. I haven't heard them beating down the doors, like, don't do that, right? But if there was hashtag…
Clare:
Yeah, declining population. No.
Jill:
…be single, don't get married, work on your career and don't have kids, you know the system would be coming for that movement, you know.
Clare:
Yeah, interestingly, like a lot of women are now choosing to have solo parent as in like, the increase in like IVF of single women is shooting up massively. So it's just interesting how like this is all now disaggregating from the traditional societal stereotypes. And I think we just have to go back to, you you talked about like the systemic level, because it's not women's role to change the system. shouldn't be women's role to educate men necessarily on what they need to be doing differently.
Jill:
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
Clare:
But that recognition that there are so many barriers and challenges that are at a level that require governments and change to happen at such a different level than it is within our control. But I think a really important message that you delivered earlier on was to say, keeping on fighting the good fight, doing what we can, encouraging things like really positive allyship with our male counterparts and creating I suppose enough noise to want to not necessarily, break the system but let the system know that it's not okay. In the UK we've had so much legislation passed that I think women are in a more secure position ever than from a legal standpoint but I don't know whether that's filtering through into the US particularly when you talk about things like Roe vs Wade being overturned and what might happen as a result of that so yeah so yeah scary times.
Jill:
Although I would say one trend that I love that I'm seeing and it was something we discussed a little bit in our Women's Summit last year is, you know, at first it was more about like, if you want to change it, we had to change ourselves. Like, women in leadership, you want to be there, then be more like this. You need to do this. You need to go do this.
And now I'm finding it's more, yeah, it's be yourselves and work on changing the system versus yourself. And so we talked about something called mirroring versus modelling and saying, for a lot of folks, especially myself early in my career, you would see males in leadership and you'd mirror how they did it. You know, like, okay, so this guy, you know, as an example, yells in meetings and cuts people off. He had, you know, and everyone respects him and he's in this high... So I'm just, guess I'm going to have to go through that exact same thing, right? That's the mirroring. But I think what's happening now and what I…
Clare:
Yeah.
Jill:
…try and foster too in conversations that I have is more of the modeling. Okay yelling, meeting and cutting people off. Don't do that. That's probably not the best example, but like, what is the underlying concept that's showing? That's showing confidence in what they're saying and being proactive maybe. So now look at yourself and say, how can I exhibit confidence in being proactive? Not in that way, but in my own authentic way.
And I think that that stuff is now being more recognized and like, you know, at first it was women just act like males to get into those leadership roles. And now it's more act like yourself, identify what some of those needs and leadership roles are and how do you fulfill those needs without doing it the way someone else did. And for me specifically, I find myself currently in my career, being able to be more authentic than I've ever been able to be in the past because of those things and saying, you know,
I am in a leadership role and I want to do it my way, not the way that was working in the past. I'll find the good pieces and model after that, but I'm not going to mirror what I've been seeing and just say that's the only way. And so I think that is a good trend that is starting to happen.
Clare:
Yeah, and it's such an important point to emphasise what you just said there. Like the change is not about women trying to change themselves, but about women and men collaborating to change the system. And the naughties and the tens, it wasn't that. It was all what you need to change about yourself to succeed in the world and be able to have it all and balance all of those things. And here's what you need to do differently about you.
Jill:
Mm-hmm.
Clare:
So I definitely agree with that. And I have so much faith in Gen Z, the most of my team are Gen Z, like they're just such different animals. Kids, raised by millennials. It's like our generation raising children, that I just love seeing how authentic and free the younger generation feels, especially women.
Jill:
Thanks. I was just listening to a book last night about talking, you know, about it.
Clare:
I know they've got lot of other challenges with social media that perhaps we didn't have in our early teens because we were analogue. And still have to phone people on actual phones back in the day. But actually there are some really positive trends coming through, particularly from young people.
Jill:
Yeah. It is. And I think women and the younger generation of women as well, moving into those leadership positions, that's what's going to change the system. And I think that that's how it's for both. It's the individual, but also that's what's going to change the system because now the decisions that are being made will include and be inclusive of those…
Clare:
Yeah.
Jill:
…diverse approaches and thought patterns and hopefully that will start to shift everything to being more inclusive in general is what I hope. But as long as you've had the same type of people at the top that have the same approach and the same opinion, it's been hard for that system to change. But I think there's a lot of, they're starting to be more and more, yeah, that are changing the things.
Clare:
Hope. That's the answer isn't it though to this 500 year, sorry I can't remember how many years it was that we quoted, how many years it's going to take to get to equality but it's the pipeline now right. like I know in customer experience we see this thing called the broken rung as in 80 % of the workforce are women but only 38 % get into management and only 12 % get into leadership.
Jill:
Right.
Clare:
And it's that first rung that's broken. So, you know the focus is always on like, how do get more women at the top, like the CEO and C-suite level, but actually to get any of those women coming through to have a chance of being at the top, actually, we really need to be focusing on that first rung and supporting as many women as possible to take that first step into management and supporting them, sponsoring them, bringing them through into leadership.
And it isn't, you know, focusing on things like I don't know, chief, obviously, we know them as an organisation, you know, senior women supporting other very senior women. It's how do we reach back and give hands up to support women making that first step? And I know for me, like I started out as a waitress, and I worked my way up into general management through multiple layers in the frontline of hospitality. If I hadn't have, you know, been encouraged and had that support and been talent spotted, like there's no way I would have, you know, ended up being the head of customer experience at an absolutely gigantic retail company.
That's where it starts, isn't it? Those talented, driven women who have potential, how do we help more of them to make that first step, which is critical, I think.
Jill:
And I think kind of what you're saying is it's that reach, it's that for those who are making it and have finally made it, it's reaching back down and bringing those additional women up. Because I think too, in the previous decades, it was that feeling of like, well, there's only one seat at the table for a woman. I want to go get it. I want to go get it, you know? And then there was like this sense of competition. But I think that that competition was being fueled by, again, I think the patriarchy in the system. Because if you compete, then you're just keeping the one…
Clare:
Yeah, so protect it with your life. Yeah.
Jill:
…seat at the table, but I think that what I've been hearing a lot of women leaders say that I love lately is that we can all get here. There's room for all of us. There's room for everyone. It isn't just this finite thing. So come join me and bring people along.
And it doesn't have to be me or you. It can be me and you. And I think the more people that have that perspective will help, raise the rising tide, raises all ships and we can get everybody up there. At our conference, there was some karaoke, of course, but it's a staple of the CallMiner conference so you know if anyone wants to come. If you love karaoke, this is the conference for you. But there was a Taylor Swift song, right? And I love how she always says like, hey, we all have crowns. Like we just realized we all have crowns. So everybody, chill out and let everybody be up there. And it isn't the, well, I'm going to get there and I gotta push down other people.
There's room, there's a seat right next to me and there's a seat next to you. So let's grab everybody. Exactly, let's grab everybody because for the few who have made it, what have you learned? What's the great thing? What can we bring and how can we just get more representation and more inclusiveness into every facet?
Clare:
Pull out that chair, like that.
Yeah, and yeah, that's kind of my final reflection on that when you said about mirroring, remembering what senior female leaders look like on my way up. Typically, they'd cut their hair really short, they were wearing pantsuits, they'd abandoned their femininity, they were aggressive, dominant, yeah, basically behaved like men to get there. And in my kind of like middle stage career,
I experienced a lot of the, that kind of, there's only one seat here, you're definitely not going to come and sit next to me. Competitive, if anything, of toxic female leadership, which was one of my inspirations for Women in CX, and I want to change that. So, you know, talk about the seat at the table. I was just like, thought, why don't we just build a bigger table? We'll build our own online community. And we'll just make it happen. Yeah.
Jill:
Okay, well I love that. There's got to be a book out there with that title somewhere, right? Or if not, you need to write it.
Clare:
I'll put that on my list today. But Jill, listen, we're out of time. It's been absolutely amazing to hang out with you. I'm sure we could carry on talking all day long, but it's absolutely fantastic. You know, we might need to do a part two or yeah, hopefully if I see you in Texas next week for our own conference, we'll get to talk a lot more.
Jill:
Yeah. Yeah, hopefully we'll see you. Yeah.
Clare:
But yeah, just like, know, congratulations on starting the Women's Employee Resource Group at CallMiner. CallMiner have been an absolutely amazing support to us here at Women NCX. We wouldn't have got where we've got without the support that you guys have put behind us. just huge thanks for spending time with me today, being part of our community. And yeah, just…
Jill:
Thank you. And shout out to all the women that I work with that, you know, plan to the Women's Summit and they come to the monthly, because, you know, everyone gets busy and it's hard to carve out an hour, but every time that we meet, we're just like, this is so great. I wish I could start every day this way. And so, you know, I really just appreciate all the women I work for, all the men that support us, you know, CallMiner, it's a good place for women, it's getting better every day and so I love being able to be a part of that and I'm just very grateful. So and grateful to be a part of Women in CX too. You have a great organisation. It's been so fun and I really appreciate this opportunity, too.
Clare:
Love! Thank you. I'll see you next time Jill and take care everybody. Bye for now. Bye.
Jill:
Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the ‘Women in CX Talk Trends’ podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. Continuing our mission to amplify the voices of women in CX and technology, sharing diverse perspectives on the latest trends shaping our industry, we’d love to hear from you! If you’d like to be featured on the podcast, please get in touch with our Head of Content, Sabine Groven, at partnerships@womenincx.community.
