From Redundancy to Reinvention: Turning Setbacks into Success, with Katie Costello
Episode #801 Show Notes:
Clare
Hi, Katie!
Katie
Hello, how are you?
Clare
Well, I'm good. Welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX Podcast. How are you today?
Katie
I'm really well. Thank you for having me.
Clare
I'm so excited for this episode, and listeners, you're in for a treat today. So Katie, let's just jump straight in there because I'm sure audience would love to know a little bit more about you and how you've ended up where you are today.
Katie
Thank you. Okay. I'm quite well versed in this question at the moment because I'm on the open job market. But okay, a bit about me. So, I've had quite a long and progressive career at Waitrose across a number of different roles. And so a big chunk of that has been at the heart of leading and operating our branches in Waitrose. And I suppose I really found that rewarding being a branch manager, leading a team.
Katie
I love focusing on continuous improvement, be at the heart of an operation, really at the cold face with the customer. It's amazing what you can learn and feed that back in. So I loved my time as branch manager, but I made the move over into the centre just over 10 years ago. And I basically went over to set up and establish the store development program. So this was orchestrating all the activity across planning, design and concept development with other stakeholders. So at its peak, that program was looking after 100 projects worth 70 million pounds of capital investment. So it was quite a project and quite a program, but thoroughly enjoyable.
Katie
I then moved more into sort of innovation roles, both as a proposition change lead and a proposition lead. So being involved in leading projects around helping customers shop more sustainably, but also how to work with John Lewis to increase brand presence across both the brands. So that was really interesting. And then Natalie, my sort of last role within Waitrose was within CX as sort of management and planning. And I suppose really it was a role where I was learning constantly, but I really made it my goal to not only sort of embed a CX management approach into Waitrose but also to really shine a light on what the 'As Is' experience was and really, I suppose, show that you need a vision to work towards. So a real sort of reward for me at the end was that I was the interface to an external consultancy that's helped Waitrose set out what that 'To be' vision is.
Katie
And I've talked about learning, I've done a CX Academy diploma, obviously found you guys, which has been absolutely amazing. But I have made the decision, I did leave Waitrose in January, I've spread my wings, and I'm on the market looking for a full-time role, but I have been freelancing, which I never thought I'd do. I never thought I'd be doing that if you'd asked me this time last year, but thoroughly enjoying it. So yeah, that's kind of a little whistle -stop tour of me.
Clare
We've got so much in common. And I know you and I have talked about these things at great length, but I also started my career in operations as well.
Katie
Yeah.
Clare
I was in hospitality. And yeah, my experience is a general manager of an operation and then moving into head office, it gives you such a grounding, doesn't it? In reality, that is literally priceless.
Katie
It does, yes. Yes, it does.
Clare
And we're both retailers. So, I was previously head of CX at Sainsbury's. We did quite similar roles at times, like looking after the propositions and the experience design. But again, like the value that like people in head office who'd run the stores or worked on the shop floor brought to every single conversation was, was absolutely, it was just priceless. I would just say that word 'priceless'.
Katie
Absolutely.
Clare
And you say 20 years at Waitrose?
Katie
It is, it is, yeah. It's a little bit more, actually.
Clare
More than 20 years.
Katie
It was 25 and a half in the end, yeah.
Clare
You must have started when you were five years old.
Katie
I was just before my 16th birthday, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Clare
Yeah, but that's a long tenure, right? And like to have worked in one organisation that has like amazing values, really, you know, it's a partnership, isn't it? With the colleagues and the culture, and obviously I love Waitrose as a shopper, you know, really like prestigious proposition in the retail space. It must have been quite hard, I guess, to walk away.
Katie
Yeah, it was hard. It was really hard to walk away. And six months on nearly, I don't have any regrets, and I never have. I wanted to be brave. I wanted to, some people sort of say, scratch that itch, and I did. And I don't have any regrets. There's definitely a tinge of sadness still, I won't lie, because it's such a massive part of my life. And I loved working for Waitrose, but I knew that if I wanted to grow the best thing for me was to do that outside of Waitrose, which is what I've done.
Clare
Yeah, yeah, just incredibly brave decision. And yeah, I guess I also really feel that too. Like I was only five years at Sainsbury's, but that's the kind of place where you could have a job for life, isn't it? And move up the ranks and stuff and to walk away from like the shiny job title and the prestige of working for one of the UK's biggest brands. There is a bit of kind of redefining your identity, isn't there?
Katie
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Clare
After being so intrinsically linked to such a big and well -known brand. But we thought it would be a great opportunity for you to bring some of your, I suppose, experience about being open to work and being in that kind of process now or like figuring out…
Katie
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Clare
…what I want to do next and who am I now, and what kind of role do I want? And obviously there are the logistical challenges of some of those things along the way. And obviously I've been with you kind of behind the scenes, hearing all this stuff myself. And I just thought it'd be really powerful to share like what's going on for you and your experience with other women, which at the moment there are a lot in the job market, especially women.
Katie
Yeah.
Clare
That have been in the tech space with the huge amount of layoffs that are happening. And I know that we've had this really big influx of women on scholarships who are in transition, career transition at the moment. So I think this is a really important conversation and one that we've not had before. So thinking about our audience that either are at this moment looking... open to work or those who might be considering making those kind of big, brave moves and seeking something different from their careers.
Katie
Yeah.
Clare
How would you advise them to really maximize their opportunities whilst being in that transitional period? So I'd love to share, I'd love you to share a bit more about the job search itself, but also some of the more emotional points around, you know, staying strong, keeping motivated and invariably what happens in recruitment processes is I suppose dealing with rejections, right?
Katie
Yeah.
Clare
And I know that previous times when I was searching for jobs, not even getting your foot in the door with an application. It'd be brutal, yeah. And obviously with someone that's got your incredible experience and credibility, that is definitely their loss, but it would be great to share, I think a little bit more about that journey. So I'll shut up and let you talk.
Katie
Yeah, it could be brutal. It would be great to share, absolutely, yeah. Thank you, no I'd love to share because you know well like 12 months ago, it's coming up to 12 months and suddenly I found myself in a - me and my whole team in a redundant situation and it was quite a shock. And so I suppose yeah you can find yourself in a situation for lots of different reasons and I suppose my position was, I kind of already made the decision that I did want to go. But then suddenly the carpet was ripped out from under my feet and suddenly, gosh, I'm actually now facing into this.
Katie
So I suppose I do come from it from a, I suppose I was quite lucky and I had a long notice period and I had time and I suppose I really appreciate that not everyone's in that situation. So I'm mindful of that when I sort of speak to you guys today, that when I've spoken to other people through WiCX and elsewhere in my network where, you know, they haven't got the time that I've had and I'm very grateful for that, but I appreciate that it's... not everyone's in that situation. But I just wanted to kind of talk through some of the things that I've learned because I've never been in a situation before and, you know, I suppose just things that have stuck with me that I wanted to share.
Katie
And I think first thing first is kind of...how you sort of come to terms with knowing like, who am I? And like, what have I got to offer? And what have I got to give? And just kind of understanding that in yourself so that you can be confident in sharing that. And I made the decision to get some help with sort of articulating that.
Katie
So, and I know this is, I've quickly learned that not everyone is too like pro- this, but I did get some help with having my CV written for me. And it was not one of these funny old style where you plug into a computer, you don't speak to a human and suddenly something pops out the other end. I had an amazing experience with this lovely lady called Jenny, who runs a company called Interview Fear. And it was absolutely fantastic from start to finish. And it very much felt like a collaborative process.
Katie
But what she did for me was able to kind of bring outside pair of eyes into something which I was so engrossed in within Waitrose, of not really understanding how I could be perceived externally. So that really, really did help me. And it gave me the confidence to kind of know who I was and what I wanted to do. And I think, you know, that really helped me sort of speak to my network and speak to the wonderful ladies within WiCX around actually, look, I'm thinking about doing this and, you know, this is what I'm thinking and it's amazing how quickly your network can then grow and grow and grow just from having conversations like that.
Katie
I also was connected quite early on - and you're amazing with this - with some recruiters, especially around within CX space and a lot of them are within WiCX, which is amazing. And each of them offered me something different in terms of advice, you know, really giving their time to sort of share what they could do to help and it was a really human experience and one in particular, Sudale, it's a Kerry Sudale.
Clare
So we all love Kerry!
Katie
Yeah, it's amazing. She's just this fireball of energy. I really, really like…she has given me so much time. Even if it's just to ring and say, hello, how are you getting on? But she said to me early on, and this is like something that really stuck with me, is like, write down what it is you're looking for in your next role. Like what is really, really important? Like what do you value? And I have to say, like, I've stood by that. I did that and I stood by it. And that has massively helped me through my job search process. So I'm very grateful to Kerry for that amazing advice.
Katie
And what the recruiters will say is, you do have to adapt your CV for every job that you're looking at. And you do need to do that. You need to tailor it. And I think if you've got confidence in knowing what you've got to offer and like what you're looking for that really helps you with that process and investing that time in doing that. And then I would say like being ready for the interview process because I was so rusty. I mean, I'd never been on the open job market. I've been, you know, obviously interviewing within jobs within Waitrose and John Lewis, but never like externally for a long, long time. And, you know, I was totally rusty and I suppose I don't want to get myself into that position again.
Katie
So I've kind of got a technique now where hope I want to my, you know, I'm being true to myself. I want to keep that, you know, I suppose up to date and relevant so that if I'm in a situation that I found myself in again, I'm ready. And I'd really recommend people to do that. And I did do some interview coaching. And I also spent time sort of understanding what kind of questions were going to be asked at the interview, both competency questions, but also non- competency based questions, like all those horrible questions that come up. And if you're prepared for them, like it makes you feel so much more confident. So I've had the question, talk to me about Katie on like a really bad day.
Clare
Haha
Katie
And I'd like, If I hadn't prepared that, I'd have been like, my goodness, I have no idea. Because obviously, you know what you're like on a really bad day, but you don't want to tell a prospective employer.
Clare
You don't want everyone to know what it is.
Katie
So I suppose what that coaching did was face into some of those horrid questions that you do get and own them and say, yeah, well, actually… and what I'd like to do, if it's OK with you guys, is I've got that original set of typical competency and non -competency based questions. So I'd love to share that for the library on WiCX. If anyone else would benefit from seeing those, it's certainly helped me. So I'm more than happy to share those after this.
Clare
We would absolutely love that. What a great resource to add to the library.
Katie
Yeah, they're brilliant. And I mean, the good old star technique and all and the like. But one other thing I will share on when I post this is I had an interview, I was in an interview process, it's quite a long one with this amazing hiring manager. And she gave me some amazing feedback afterwards in terms of not that the feedback like was completely all amazing, but the time she gave me because that's rare that you get time and she gave me some really constructive feedback, but for me, that was amazing feedback because it was so rich for me to then use and adapt my approach, et cetera. And she called it competency bingo. And she basically had like a series of like little sentences or little few words that she would always try and get into her star techniques. So like, you know, situation, task, action, results, and that's amazing.
Clare
Result, yeah.
Katie
Like doing that, like I went from one interview not doing that and then another one doing it and it really helps you really...
Clare
Made a difference. Can you give us an example?
Katie
Yeah. So I'll happily share that. So I've…I've demonstrated my leadership style by... or I've created a data-driven decision by... and so real sort of like snappy - I took ownership by... but it just helps you.
Clare
Action words.
Katie
Cut the waffle
Clare
Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Yeah. And do you pick, do you pick those like kind of competencies from the job description? So you're like pulling out the same words.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah.
Clare
Because I remember working for a very big company and basically that, you got given a sheet and it was like bingo. So you'd be like literally like which words you want to hear. And then you'd be like scoring like the relevance to the job description and the competencies that are the requirements of the job basically. Once I understood that I was like, my god, any interviews I'd ever done I was doing them all wrong. To know that it was like, you know, the scoring process in people's minds. And the more you replay the words back, right, the more assured they'll be if I'm hearing that competency or that leadership skill or that like specific example of the experience we're looking for, they can tick those boxes in their mind or on the paper or whatever it is.
Katie
Yeah, totally, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Clare
But sometimes I think we approach these things in how we want to tell a story, don't we, rather than how somebody needs to receive that story. And whether we're in like stakeholder meetings where we're trying to pitch something or client conversations where we're trying to help them understand the approach like we have to not make it about ourselves necessarily. And they are in the interview process, you are talking about yourself, but still trying to think about what is it that they need to hear from me in that instance.
Katie
Yes, 100%. Yeah.
Clare
That's a really, really good one. So thinking about, I guess, more of the emotional side of coping with being open to work and this kind of being in career transition, you're giving some really amazing examples of, you know, spending that time to get to know who you are, what you stand for, what you value, being able to help, you know, navigate that job search from a place of confidence about who you are and what you want. I think it's such brilliant advice. Talked about reaching out for help, networking, meeting recruiters, getting feedback, invested in coaching and CV writing. But there's the mindset bit, isn't there, that you can't really get help with, except perhaps with therapy. But there's a huge amount of resilience required, isn't there, to kind of stay positive and in a good space when there's so much uncertainty.
Katie
Mm. Is it a huge amount? Yeah.
Clare
Could you share with the audience a little bit more about what that part has been like and what advice you have for navigating the emotional side of the career search?
Katie
Yeah. 100 % yeah, you're absolutely right. And especially when, you know, when you're looking for a job, you know, it's quite a big percentage of the reasoning for that is that you, for some reason or other, have not got the job you're in before. And, you know, I'm talking this my own experience, I had quite a lot of emotional baggage I've had to make peace with.
Clare
Hmm.
Katie
Because you know, my situation and I think the other thing I wasn't prepared for is how patient you have to be. So I left Waitrose in January and if someone was to tell me, like at the end of May, like you still won't be employed. I'd be like, my goodness, like I kind of like it but I'm fine. Like I'm freelancing. I've...I feel okay about the situation, but I understand that that's not everyone's situation.
Katie
And I think that's the importance of understanding and going into this, that you have to be patient. And that's hard. When someone says, we're going to go really quick with this job, we're going to interview, and then literally three months later, you're still in the process. You're just like, but I thought this was going to be quick. And it's about three months later.
Clare
Mmm.
Katie
And I think that's why I really sort of thought I need to do something. I was getting bored and I sort of then went into, okay, let's do something. Let's do some freelancing and like I'm really enjoying it, if I'm honest, and learning loads whilst also they're fully appreciative that I am looking for employment like full time on the books as such is my preference.
Katie
And so, yeah, I think the other thing is, and early on, so this is before I was freelancing, like, I used to like drop the kids off at school. And then I used to sit at the computer, I'll be like, my God, I haven't got a job. What do I need to do now? And I've only got this many applications in and you could just spend the whole day, like just scrolling through LinkedIn. And so what I did, I read this amazing book, which I'll share the share post this bit, it's a guy called Simon Grey wrote it, and it's called... like, I suppose executive job search, like top tips for an executive job search and it was an amazing book it was really really helped me kind of ground myself into like what I was facing into and what I loved about it is it it helped sort of give you advice on how to like spend your time looking for a job so almost for me I needed to kind of give permission to myself it's okay to go and spend a day in London with my mum.
Clare
Hmm.
Katie
Like I don't have to spend five days a week sitting, doing various things. So I kind of split my time and I had, and this thing is just how I like to work. I like to feel that I was personally myself, but you know, like, okay, the morning I'm going to spend time doing some networking, speaking and having some coffee with people. In the afternoon, I'm going to put that application in. I'm going to have that chat with that recruiter. And I just sort of split my time.
Clare
Mm.
Katie
So it made me feel comfortable that I was doing everything I can, but also I enjoyed the opportunity that I wasn't working as well. So yeah, so that's probably things that come to mind when you ask me that question.
Clare
Yeah. Yeah, since there's so much judgment and pressure we put on ourselves, though isn't there. When we make transitions and, you know, really redundancy situations or, you know, when it's not been a hundred percent your choice, not in your case, for example, necessarily, because you'd already made up your mind, but that feeling of like a rug being pulled when you put into a redundancy situation. It happened to me like earlier in my career.
Katie
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Clare
When I was working, I'm not going to say for who, but the, you know, when they do like the restructuring and like two roles go down to one and there was me and someone else who did something similar. They were going to have to choose between me and my work bestie about who was going to get the job. And I remember going through, you know, the whole redundancy consultation process. And I was only in my early twenties and just feeling so vulnerable through it.
Katie
Yeah.
Clare
And then, when I got the news that I wasn't going to be picked, the feedback that I got from the head of the department was, I'm an ideas guy. And actually I don't need more, like I don't need some more smart women in my team going forward, any people that are just going to get on and do the job. So I was like, what am I supposed to do with that?
Katie
Yeah.
Clare
And the knock to my confidence that I experienced after that, I think, you know, now, almost 20 years later, I'd be, I'd approached it completely differently, and I'd feel completely differently about it because I've developed that kind of like maturity and self-assurance that I never had at that time to have seen that for what it was. And actually, it became my biggest opportunity. Like if I had stayed there and got that job, I don't think I'd be where I am today.
Katie
I'm ready. Yeah.
Clare
It was the catalyst that enabled me to go and take my first job with customer experience in the title. Bearing in mind it was a long time ago, these jobs were rare. Because what I was trying to do was basically create strategies for customer experience in a company that wasn't ready for it. So you only get to say that, don't you? It was a gift to be made redundant or to have lost my job or whatever. Like retrospectively, once you've got to that next stage, but I guess I would just encourage the openness of mind to say like, not to judge those kinds of situations as necessarily bad because what comes next, you don't know yet, but what comes next and the steps that you take following a loss like that could actually be the catalyst for a better future that you never could have imagined if you just stayed where you are.
Katie
Totally. Yeah, absolutely.
Clare
And even with Women in CX, it came from a loss; it came from my consulting business, going down the pan in the pandemic when we were no longer able to travel, and I'd created this life for myself where I was a digital nomad and all my clients were in Australia or New Zealand and places like that, that physically got taken away from me. But it led me to starting this podcast, which eventually became starting an online community that's now a huge, amazing organisation making a difference all over the world. So if anyone listening is out there right now and feeling that way of, I'm going through this bad thing, this is bad. There must be something wrong with me. It's just to remember that actually not to judge the situation as bad right now because who knows how long but you'll be looking back and going that was the thing that led me to where I am today and most of the time it ends up being a positive story doesn't it those difficult moments in life.
Katie
100 % completely agree, yeah.
Clare
Just throwing my 10-pence worth in there. So thinking about, you know, the lessons, I guess that maybe you'd taken from spending such a long time working in one company, is there anything like specifically that you've brought with you into the job search from your long tenure?
Katie
Yeah. Yes. Yes. And so I knew I wanted to leave. And like, probably about six months before, like, the announcements all came. And so I'd already sort of focus on like, I knew I needed to get more confidence. And so I spent like time investing in building out my network, learning, reading lots of books, meeting lots of people, going to lots of like, free events, just like feel part of the conversation and feel more confident. So although the redundancy process was very, very hard, and it felt quite personal at times and it hurt definitely, I kind of had to make peace with that.
Katie
But I think I had to kind of show the positive of working somewhere for a long time. And I think that's what I felt was like a disadvantage for me. So I'd only work for one company. And I suppose doing the like coaching, interview coaching, it kind of started to me to switch it to actually has been a positive working for an amazing company. I've had so many different opportunities, which I've jumped out, I've learned so much. And this is who I am now as a result. That it kind of gave me the confidence when someone said, you know, and pretty much every interview is like, so why have you left Waitrose? And, you know, why have you only done that? And to be able to say, well, and I own this, and I know my answer to that question, because I'm prepared. And I think also what helped is like, some amazing people, and I've got a few names to shout out actually.
Clare
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, do it, do it.
Katie
But I'm going to like the open network events…and I love the ones where you go and you say like, is there anything to talk about? And I, you know, we had one and I just said, I'm feeling like this because I'm about to be leave Waitrose I'm like, I'm quite scared about it. My gosh. It's like the, like emotional support, the advice that came flooding through. And I met a lovely lady called Mary Ann King.
Clare
From, you mean the Women in CX networking events, the ones that we host on the platform.
Katie
And we, yes, yes, yeah, yes, yeah. The ones you all got…
Clare
Yeah, sorry. Got you. I was there. I was there, I remember. Yeah.
Katie
You were there, I know. And she went, "I worked for Microsoft for 25 years and it's fine Katie, it's fine". And you know, we've, you know, we've met up and gone for lovely walks and just, but it's so lovely to speak to someone who like has done that. And I can always remember conversation - you rung me Clare and said like, it's okay to like grieve, leave, leaving and Waitrose. Tros. And as soon as you said that word, I was like, my God, like, I feel so sad about it. So like that has just summed up exactly how I feel. So that massively helped. So thank you.
Katie
But speaking of like, I spent some amazing time with Susanna, who's part of WiCX and doing strengths analysis.
Clare
Susanna Simmons, she's brilliant. Yeah, love her.
Katie
Like she's done an amazing, I was her guinea pig, apparently. But I was just like, my goodness, what I've got out of this is utterly amazing. Yes, absolutely brilliant. Ellie, my past colleague at Waitrose, Faith…when I've spent so much time talking to each other, we're doing very different things, but it's just great to have that person just to kind of talk to. And I suppose it got me to a place of actually, like, I can confidently talk about why I've made this decision. And I think that really helps when you go into an interview. And I don't have any regrets. I have made peace with it all. I do feel a bit sad. I'm not gonna lie.
Katie
Like, I still feel that sadness of now being away from something that I loved so much. But yeah, but I think it is about finding your story of that confidence and the positiveness of being somewhere so long and being able to share that interview and that goes back to being prepared and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Clare
Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask you like, how is being part of a community impacted you personally and professionally? But I think you just answered that one, didn't you? Meeting incredible people who have been so supportive and that confidence boost.
Katie
Gosh, absolutely. So supportive. So supportive, yeah. Yeah.
Clare
So my only other question really, before we sum up was to ask you about one barrier or challenge you've overcome to be the woman you are today. I think that's really beautifully explained one in the context of this interview, but is there anything else you'd like to share about the times that have shaped you?
Katie
Yeah, I think, you know, as I said, I knew I wanted to leave to almost grow. I was so part of the furniture. I didn't like that. I didn't like the feeling of being that. And, you know, I wanted to have the confidence to step out of like the shadows, I suppose, and believe more in myself. And I had this piece of advice that a lovely lady at Waitrose gave me. And she sat me down and she's like, Katie, like, you need to keep your stilettos on, take the slippers off and go. Like, so, and she gave me that advice. I was like, my gosh, like, I don't want to be, I want to be challenged and pushed and feel like, I don't know, like just more motivation than I was feeling at the time. And she said that in that sentence, and I was like, my gosh. But I suppose I've got a lot…
Clare
Katie Costello's stilettos, I love that.
Katie
Yeah. I got a lot from the Impostor Syndrome series that you guys have been really focusing on, I have to say. Especially the one right at the start where the guys that were really kindly sharing their time sort of categorised the different types. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but that's how I interpreted it. And that really helped me sort of break that down. And I think that's really helped me. It's been massively eye-opening. So I think, you know, that barrier challenge has all been about me feeling more confident, feeling my role in terms of the conversation I could be part of. And yeah, I think I don't think I'm alone in that.
Clare
You're not 100 % not. And I remember back to the workshop that was with DeAnna Avis and Natalia was the imposter syndrome kind of intro, wasn't it?
Katie
Yes, Natalia, yeah.
Clare
And I remember that exercise as well where they were like saying that typically you'll fall into these characters that are representative of different types of imposter thoughts and perfectionism.
Katie
Yeah, brilliant.
Clare
So, being like the superwoman that feels like you have to do absolutely everything and be busy all of the time and be the best Mum and the best career woman and the best whatever your situation is. And that everybody needs help all of the time and you're going to do that. And that immense pressure that would come with trying to do everything and for everybody. Or the perfectionist where, and I definitely feel the perfectionist one more than the others, even though I see myself in most of them actually. But that like, it's got to be perfect. I've got to do this task, but it has to be like 110%. And I have to do 110% in everything that I do, otherwise it's not worth doing. And how that leads to like procrastination and the bad thoughts around judging yourself, right? So yeah, and like it's awesome that now, again, as you said, it's in the resource library for anyone who comes next to be able to watch.
Katie
I really recommend that.
Clare
But yeah, but I think my reflections on this conversation are definitely...there's a lot of practical aspects to being on the job search. You shared some really practical, tangible advice around taking that time to think about who am I, what do I stand for, what do I value, what am I looking for? So you can be as selective as possible on the job search. Thinking about getting help where you need it, whether that's joining a community shout out any women that are currently out of work. You can join Women in CX for free for three months, and we'll support you like we did Katie to help you through career transition. But also like, if you can afford it to invest in coaching CV writing, those things really make a difference.
Clare
But like managing your emotions and being kind to yourself during what is a period of maximum uncertainty and not knowing why you're going to end up. Remembering to try not to judge whether the situation that you're in is bad, because it might be the thing, the catalyst that leads you to the good. And that advice around patience, because some of these processes take such a long time, right? And if you're in a place of judgment with yourself and pushing, like you said, you were to be like, my God, I have to get a job immediately after I leave another company, or it says something about me. Abandoning those kinds of thoughts is the only way that you can healthily get through the more challenging times when we're dealing with uncertainty. So I think that's been hugely valuable.
Clare
Thank you so much. I've really appreciated it. And the time to reflect and Katie, I know you're in the process for all kinds of things now and enjoying the freelancing, but whoever gets to have you in their team next are going to be a seriously lucky leader in a lucky organisation. So yeah, ...
Katie
Thank you. I would just say, Clare, but if anyone's watching or listening that is not, like, in the situation, but they know someone that is, like, just, like, reaching out to them, like, it makes such a difference because I'm sort of a strong believer of paying it forward. So I'm now, when I was in the original redundancy situation, I lent a lot on people that had been in the situation 18 months before me. And now there's another massive restructure going on in Waitrose at the moment. And I've got, you know, colleagues and friends of mine that are now in the situation I was in 12 months ago. So I'm a strong believer of paying what you take, what I've taken from other people's advice forward. So, yeah, I really recommend, recommend that.
Clare
Yeah, and that was an amazing part in words to finish on. And yeah, I think it really is a reflection, isn't it, of the kind of spaces that communities like Women in CX bring, or all those women who are all paying it forward to one another on a number of different topics. And when someone receives that help, they're all then off paying it forward to the next person. The impact just...
Katie
Absolutely, yeah.
Clare
…reaches so far and so wide, doesn't it? And I love the way you gave so many shout-outs to incredible women and...
Katie
I had to because they've been amazing. I've missed loads as well.
Clare
Yeah, for anyone who didn't get mentioned, I'm sure they would have been in your thoughts as well. When we post your announcements of this episode, you can tag them all. And you, and you, and you, and you. So that's it for folks. Thank you so much for listening today. Thank you so much for joining us today, Katie. It's been amazing. And we'll see you all next time. Bye for now. Bye, Katie.
Katie
100%. Yay! Thank you for having me. I will see you all next time.
