Clare Muscutt talks with Chelsea Costelloe about Caribbean CX and dispelling customer journey mapping myths.

Episode #410 Show Notes:

Clare :

Welcome to the 10th episode of the 4th series of the women in CX podcast, a series dedicated to ‘real talk’ conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, re-live the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects.

I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today’s episode, I will be talking to one of our community members, a seriously fabulous lady from Trinidad and Tobago.

Let me introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, she started her career in digital marketing and went on to hold a number of roles with Diageo, Phillips and Fresh Media before Co-Founding Caribbean based customer experience agency, EXCO, alongside two other brilliant women in CX where she’s now their Chief Excitement Officer. She’s on a mission to advance the Caribbean world of CX. Specialising in Customer Journey Mapping, user experience, and CX design.

 Please welcome to the show, Our CX sister, Chealsea Costelloe de Souza.

Clare:

Hi Chelsea.

Chelsea:

Hi, Clare. How are you?

Clare:

I'm amazing. How are you, girlfriend?

Chelsea:

Oh, so good. It's so good to be here and chatting with you again as always.

Clare:

Well, welcome to the women in CX podcast.

Chelsea:

Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.

Clare:

And welcome to everybody who's listening along as well. And we've got a super action-packed show for you today, listeners. Chelsea's going to be giving us lots of insight into CX in the Caribbean and specifically, we're going to be talking about customer journey mapping and restoring the journey mapping reputation. So, first off, I'm just going to ask you the question that I ask all of our guests, and that is to let us know how you found your way into Customer Experience, but also importantly, co-founding the Caribbean's first all-female-led CX consulting agency.

Chelsea:

Yes, thanks Clare. You know, I studied Consumer Behaviour in university and when I came back home to the Caribbean, we live in Trinidad and Tobago, that's where our business is based out of. There wasn't a lot of opportunity out there in the consumer behaviour space. So I did go into digital advertising and while I was there, my co-founders, Samantha and Sasha, approached me with this idea. They said, we really need to do a customer experience agency. There's nothing else like it in the region. The one-stop-shop really focused on just customer experience and they themselves had seen what customer experience can do in their past corporate lives. So, I mean, it was a no brainer, closed my eyes and jumped into the deep end and here we are, we founded EXCO (The Experience Company) and we are celebrating four years this month. So we're super excited about that.

Clare:

Congratulations. And you've got a pretty cool job title, right?

Chelsea:

Yeah. I'm the Chief Excitement Officer. So we're all about exciting and delighting our customers. We have a Chief Experience Officer, the Chief Evolution Officer, a lot of Chiefs, but our titles really stick to what we do for our customers.

Clare:

Oh, amazing. So tell me more about being the Chief Excitement Officer. What does that mean?

Chelsea:

So I actually focus on the arm of the business that's around customer journey mapping and designing experiences. So I really do spend a lot of my time in workshops, exciting customers and their teams to really get involved in Customer Experience. And I think one of the toughest parts of the job is bringing the non-customer experience folk along with us and really getting them excited about Customer Experience. So, yeah, it's a good time.

Clare:

And we'll talk much more about journey mapping shortly and the excitement that can be created through things like workshops, but I'm super interested just to understand a little bit more about the Caribbean itself or Caribbean, as you say it. So where is CX at maturity-wise? You said, you know, there's this need to create this space and be the first to move, having seen the success that it had had on other parts of the world, through the companies that particularly Sam worked for, but kind of what was the story there? What is the evolution? Where is the Caribbean at?

Chelsea:

First of all, there's no wrong way to say it. Caribbean, Caribbean. It just depends on where you're from. So we say Caribbean.

Clare:

It sounds so nice how you say it though.

Chelsea:

There's really been a huge shift in Customer Experience in the region. And when we first set out to open EXCO, we started by just trying to find Customer Experience titles. We said, look, we really are on our mission to drive Customer Experience. So first we need to educate, we need to empower. We need to find all the CX people in this space, empower them with certifications, with seminars, with all the information they need that is super specific to the region. There's a lot of content, information, mentorship available out there internationally, but it was fairly difficult at the time to find region-specific information that could support that. Even benchmarking is a challenge in the region, right? But for us in the last four years, we've seen a major shift, a lot more CX titles. When you type in on LinkedIn, you see so many more Customer Experience focused titles in the region, in Trinidad alone.

Chelsea:

And it's amazing. We held the first Customer Experience Summit two years ago, pre-pandemic. And that's where we really, probably for the first time, all of the Customer Experience titles came together. And we had a lot of those who were not yet exploring specific roles or resources around Customer Experience, but it felt like the foot's in the door. And since then, we've seen a lot of those companies who attended, assign a role that says Customer Experience, that assign a Customer Success Officer. So we've seen a lot of change and a lot of shifts in a positive way in the region.

Clare:

Amazing. And obviously, you've been in the community for about a year now. What's it been like to be part of Women in CX?

Chelsea:

Oh, for us, Women in CX is a game-changer. We came across Women in CX during the pandemic. Our borders were completely shut for almost two years, I think. And there was very little opportunity for us to network with other people in our space, especially other women in our space who probably experienced so many similar things to us. So when Women in CX came on our table and we met you, we met your team. It was a no brainer. We joined the first intro session and we left there and all of us, we just closed our laptops and said we're joining. Absolutely. And since then, we've seen not only the community grow, it's unbelievable how large the community has gotten, especially all over the world. We've seen other people in the region join, which is amazing for us to even connect with other people in the region who we would never have connected with without Women in CX.

Chelsea:

And we've actually recently started a piece of work with someone that we've connected with through Women in CX. So for us, we are really seeing returns on the investment on the time. And it doesn't even talk to the emotional support you get from your team. It's sort of like a constant therapy session with the Women in CX. And it's amazing. It really feels like a two-way community. And I think that's a testament to you Clare, you've done such a great job. It feels like, you know, you give and you get, it's not a one-way street.

Clare:

Oh, that's so nice of you to say. It's been an absolute pleasure having you ladies along as well. And I just love being able to do stuff like this as well. The kind of content creation partnerships in collaboration and yeah, huge. Congratulations on signing the deal with the contact that you met through Women in CX as well, round applause. So I just wanted to explore that kind of women in the region, you mentioned that a couple of times there, you know, kind of making connections through WiCX with other women locally, but what is it like to be a woman working in the Caribbean? What's the kind of state of play for gender equality over there? I know we've seen a lot of stuff in the news recently.

Chelsea:

Yeah. You know, in the space, in general, in Trinidad, especially, and I know other Caribbean islands face this, there are a lot of instances of gender-based violence. So in general, even just the safety aspect of getting to and from work for a lot of women, regardless of where you work in the field, there are a lot of safety challenges around that. So women are facing a lot more when they come into the workplace, there's a lot that's happening in the region before they even get into the workplace. Everyone is facing challenges and affairs. And I would say I've been blessed that, you know, I've been safe and all of that, and I love the Caribbean for so many things. We do so many things well, but I feel like we have a lot to learn still when it comes to gender equality and especially in the workplace, especially in corporate space and we've come a long way, but we still have far to go.

Chelsea:

And I think that's something that anyone who's ever worked in the Caribbean has experienced, or we all have our own little stories. Right. Me personally, I have experienced, you know, some comments here and there where I'm shocked. I'm like guys, we're in 2022. I can't believe that you think this way. So I do think that we are a little behind in some areas, and I know there are other regions around the world that feel very similar to us. And sometimes I'd be on calls with, you know, a colleague in Kenya who will say, oh, I feel the same way. I've had the same experience. So it's a blessing and a curse when you can relate to other women with the same thing, because I don't ever want other women to experience the same thing. But you know, it is sort of an understanding that, okay, there are some regions that have really taken that needle and pushed it and pushed the envelope and broken those barriers for women. And there are some, like us, who still have some way to go.

Clare:

Yeah. Do you have any examples from your own experience?

Chelsea:

Oh, my favourite, we had a great client who actually called us his "Charlie's Angels" and it was such a strong client relationship that it was one of those things where, you know, we thought that the lines got a little blurred, but every time we walked into the office now a lot of other team members would say, "oh, Charlie's Angels are back." "Oh, Charlie's Angels are here to look good and oh wow." "What are we going to do without Charlie's Angels looking good on the floor?" And you know, there were some comments like that, that I thought, wow, this is still the mindset happening here. And I think, in their defence, I guess I probably should have said something like, it's not okay or that doesn't make me feel comfortable. So, you can't blame anyone for not knowing, but it was a shock to me and I think it is a testament to what really happens and you know, not sure what really actually happens when the curtains are closed.

Clare:

Yeah. I think it's still, even in countries where big progress has been made, those kind of gender stereotypes or, and, basically let's just call it is, sexist comments about our appearance or our value is based on how we look. It happens consistently across the globe. And I know that feeling of the male gaze in a work environment, I've been in meetings where the guy has been talking to my boobs the whole time, not even hiding it and the eyes flicking up and down but being in the same kind of, feeling of, I feel like I should say something, but I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how to deal with this. Yeah. Feeling incredibly uncomfortable, but you know, kind of tolerating it and we shouldn't have to do that. Right. Women shouldn't have to experience that kind of gender-based discrimination when they just want to show up to work and do what they do with their brains.

Chelsea:

And in the Caribbean we do, and especially in Trinidad, we have this sort of friendly nature about us and to get in the workplace just out there, everyone is friends, everyone is a family and you know, that's an ongoing joke. They shout everyone is family, family, family, family. So we do have this warmth and this Caribbean warmth, which I love about it. And I don't ever want to remove that element of our nature. But I do think that there's a lot to learn on what the line is and where to draw the line and not to blur them at all because I'm talking about one very gentle experience that there are women out there that are facing extremely harsh circumstances. So when we allow one line to be pushed a little bit, the lines keep getting pushed until it's over the edge.

Clare:

Yeah, I totally agree. And it's something around respect, isn't it? And what starts as wolf whistles and, you know, kind of banter, lack of respect for women, over time and in different environments can become something, as you said, that is, much more dangerous and insidious and the problems that, globally, women face around gender-based violence, I'm sure at the start of any misogynist's journey, it wasn't something, you know, quite as horrific as actual acts of violence, but it starts with lack of respect and treating men and women equally. Right. And you wouldn't be staring at a man's chest during a meeting, as was my experience. That's super helpful kind of context and thank you for raising awareness of specifically the protests and stuff that are happening over in Trinidad right now. So, yeah, so talking, I guess, a bit more about other challenges you faced as a woman in Customer Experience, what's one of the bigger challenges you've had to overcome in order to become the woman that you are today?

Chelsea:

You know, one that really stands out to me and not as much now, but when I first got into the CX space, I was about 25 and I was a young woman fresh into the Customer Experience space. And I feel like I had to face a lot of questions around, you know, "does she really know what she's doing?" "She's so young", "but, oh, she came from social media" because there's a big understanding of digital advertising here equating to just social media and, oh, "she's just Instagram and Facebook and she's so young", "what do these young millennials know these days?" And I feel like I probably had to change that conception or misconception a lot. And luckily I feel like I've spent a lot of time always having to prove, you know, I'm good at what I do. I know what I'm doing.

Chelsea:

And of course, we're always learning. I take a course every single year because everything is changing constantly. And I love all of these masterclasses that you have because of that reason, I feel like there's always something new to learn from a new person, a new outlook on your mindset, but I definitely faced a lot of that perception around, oh, this is a young girl coming into the office to tell us what's wrong with our customer experience or how to fix it. And I'm sure that still happens behind closed doors. And there's probably some whispers out there around it. And I'm sure there's a lot of people who face that when you first enter the workforce and it's always that ongoing thing, you want someone, all this experience, which you want someone with, you know, this credibility and this smarts and this knowhow.

Chelsea:

And sometimes it just takes a while to prove your words. And I feel like I've definitely gotten there, but it was a challenge at first. And maybe some of it was my own insecurity in that sense. Maybe some of it I was projecting onto people's conception. So I would tell anyone out there, try not to project your own insecurities. So maybe my own was that I was young and I was trying to prove myself. So I can't say for a fact that that was everything. That was the biggest challenge and my biggest uphill battle but it was something that definitely, I might have played a part in.

Clare:

That's such a female thing to do is to blame yourself for that.

Clare:

Yeah, obviously, well I'm 40 now, so it doesn't really happen so much anymore. Apart from last night in a taxi, I was coming back from the airport, I had a cap on and maybe I just looked young cause it was in the dark. And this taxi driver was saying "oh, there's no way, kind of at your age, you can't have been doing all this." Cause he'd asked me what I did and I was talking about Women in CX and I was like, "well, how old do you think I am?" And he was like, "oh, you can't be more than your mid-twenties." And I was like, I'm 40. Thanks very much. But again, kind of just that conception of you can't be young female and good at what you do and successful. Well, why not? But yeah, I do.

Chelsea:

Absolutely.

Clare:

Yeah. I do remember it, when I was in my early twenties, I kind of got accelerated straight into senior management in operations. I was a General Manager of a hotel and restaurant at 23. And everybody that was at my level as a General Manager, they were all, well, 90% white, middle-aged men. So, there was me, all fresh-faced and young. And I really remember having that feeling of I have to prove myself here. I have to prove myself constantly just to be taken seriously. And actually, you know, kind of hide more about who I am and dress in a certain way to reduce my femininity or look older. I even remember going through a stage of wearing glasses, just to try and be taken a bit more seriously.

Clare:

In my early twenties. So I thought maybe that might help, but, you know, I just love being around women in CX with so many, you know, young women in their early twenties now coming up through the ranks and being part of this community and, you know, being able to exchange those stories about kind of the millennial experience of working in business and encouraging them not to change and to continue to be themselves. Because I guess we didn't have so many female role models and mentors that remained feminine and true to themselves. So rather than having to mask and try to be someone that we're not in order to be taken seriously, now I advocate just continue to be yourself, no matter what, don't change and stay true. And actually, the confidence that you'll build in yourself means that you won't fear having to prove yourself quite so much. If I could tell myself that, if I could go back in time, I would totally do that. Anyway.

Chelsea:

You've just given an example that made me remember when I was coming in the airport once and we still have these forms here where you have to fill out every detail, your occupation and everything. And I filled out my occupation and it says that I'm the Director of the Customer Experience company. The guy looks at it. "This is you?" So I said, yeah, what's the question? And he says "you're a director", I said "yes. I started a business with, you know, two colleagues and whatnot." Hmm. "Is this like your dad's company?" And I was like, no, this is my company and oh, okay. And he was so sceptical to let me go through and you know, you're always a little nervous in immigration. You're already a little high on nerves. And I'm like, uh, yeah, that's me. And I started to doubt myself and what I wrote I'm like, what did I write on that form? Gosh. And you know, I looked back walking off like that is insane. Like the scepticism on his face and just the questions he was asking, he absolutely 100% did not believe me at no point.

Clare:

That's awful, isn't it? Yes. I am the director of my own company that I co-founded with another two incredible women. Thank you very much. Let me through. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just creating my crown as I walk past you. But yeah, it happens all the time though, right. And I think that the further away you are from the stereotypical definition of success in business, which is, let's face it still thanks to the patriarchy, a middle-aged white man, the harder it is. So, for women that are even further away from the kind of, you know, male standards, so women of different races or sexual orientations, it's even harder to be taken seriously in the workplace, to receive the same advantages. So absolutely, I do recognise my own privilege in that as well.

Clare:

So, talking about journey mapping, back to the kind of the main topic of discussion today. So you're going to be coming back to the community next week to deliver your masterclass on customer journey mapping. And I'm super interested because the title that you put forward for this was about restoring the reputation of customer journey mapping. For the audience's benefit, do you want to tell us a little bit more about where the topic has come from and a bit more about where this loss of reputation seems to have appeared in journey mapping. Let's have a chat about that.

Chelsea:

Yeah, for sure. The, you know, journey mapping is something that we so believe in at EXCO for so many reasons. And sometimes I feel like when we talk journey mapping in so many different spaces, we're not necessarily talking about the journey maps that we know and that we believe in the word journey is honestly, truly used and abused. And so it's in so many different conversations. Now you're having them in the commercial rooms, they're in the marketing meetings, they're in your technical discussions, they're in your web development teams, they're in so many different discussions now. And there were journeys used in so many different ways that there's now this conception of, well, you know, what even is a journey map and what's the point of it. And I feel like a lot of people that we speak to will start by saying, we really need to accomplish these goals. We need to drive culture change in the organisation around CX. We need to understand the experience that our customers are going through and we need to change it. We need to make some change in action, somehow some ideas and we'd say, okay, great. So the tool to use to accomplish all these things are journey maps, but people don't consider it in that way. Journey mapping is a tool to accomplish your goals. People sometimes look at journey mapping as the goal let's map a journey.

Clare:

Yeah, a silver bullet that's going to solve all of the problems within the organisation. Yeah. That's definitely not true.

Chelsea:

And then they'll come to us and say, "Hey, we've mapped, we've mapped six journeys. And nothing's happened in three years, what to do." And so many times we'd say even the conception around what journey maps are and why you're doing them is the biggest problem. And one of our favourite stats are that 80% of companies admit to having a map and only 20% feel that they're using them well. And that's a testament to the misunderstanding and the bad reputation that journey maps have. And I do feel like in a sense journey mapping, if not done right, can cause a bit of burnout. And I've experienced that myself when you're in a never-ending, probably loop of journey mapping. And you're not seeing the change. You're not seeing the action. You're not measuring the impact. You can feel like a lot of wasted effort and expelled energy and excited teams to then fall flat. And that can be a cause of burnout if you're not doing it right. So I try to encourage everyone when you're doing journey mapping, have a reason for doing it. Don't just do it for the sake of ticking a box and then you'll avoid burnout in that way and you will see change for your teams and you will see change for your customers.

Clare:

So, yeah, I'm still a massive fan, always have been, of journey mapping, but I agree with you. It is one of a number of tools that can help you to uncover. I love it, especially for looking at as is experiences. So being able to bring people together, it's like another massive bonus of them, through things like workshops to collaborate around a journey mapping framework where probably they're only responsible for a small part, but then being able to see that expanded end-to-end view around the other stuff that happens. And those light bulb moments when someone from finance is talking to someone from procurement and they're like, oh, look at this pain point, we could just fix that by, you know, sorting that out together and the immediate quick wins that kind of rise from there.

Clare:

But I think you are right, this kind of journey mapping overwhelm when they're being, the tool is being used with a far too overreaching goal orientation. I'm a massive fan of just picking off single journeys or parts of journeys to start with and really getting into the detail of a small manageable section. Obviously, my background working in kinda big retail and stuff. If you try to map the customer journey of an in-store supermarket shopping experience and all the possible, you know, different variations that you could take through that you would drive yourself crazy. In fact, I think I did do that to start with, I think I did go down that path, but you know, being able to take something like checkout, as an example, and just really focus in on a key part of the end-to-end experience and kind of figure that out is really beneficial.

Clare:

Also, I'm a massive fan of future-facing journey maps. So being able to kind of say, well, you know, we've really understood what we do today, where the pain points are, where the opportunities to change things are, we can establish quick wins and we've got people together, got them excited about the prospect of improving customer experience. But even with WiCX now, we are just constantly in this state of innovation, of test and learn and figure out with things like onboarding, collecting up the lessons and going, okay, well let's just creatively design a target experience based on what we've learned. And we work in UXPressia here all the time, figuring out, based on our learnings, these different configurations and building people, processes and systems around those target experiences. But I'm still kind of at a loss as to why the reputation has got so bad other than a bit like customer experience generally.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Clare:

It's been taken as a term like you say, you know, a catch-all for everything and then yeah, productised, I don’t know if that's the right word, but like customer experience is kind of turned into a product that technology companies or other companies try to sell or big four consulting houses. We have this thing called Customer Experience. It's a product, we'll come and do it and it'll fix everything. And I think journey mapping to some extent is the same, or like journey mapping that becomes process mapping. It's not, it's not actually related to Customer Experience at all. And then, as you said, the disappointment when people have spent or invested a lot of money in systems technologies or consulting that hasn't delivered the outcome that was promised, that it isn't a panacea. Customer Experience isn't a panacea, nor is journey mapping. But that's the bit that's got a bit confused in the middle. What do you think? Where do you think the bad reputation came from?

Chelsea:

I think that's a big part of it in the productisation of journey mapping. And I do see why different fields, different technology companies, they do a form of mapping, certain types of journeys, but when it comes to customer journey maps, that's not necessarily what it is. So you will see some technology companies selling an out of the box journey map, and then someone will buy it and then they'll say, oh, well,

Clare:

Or a software to do it actually.

Chelsea:

And it's like, "oh, you're done. You're good to go. You've got it. You're on your way to mapping the journey and success." And I feel like that's where it falls flat. Right? It's like, you're biting off a little more than you can chew with blinders on. And it's sort of like if I gave you a pen and I said, okay, this is how you're going to write with the pen, from the bottom end. And then let me know how it goes.

Chelsea:

You've given me the tool, but I have no idea how to use it. I have no direction and nothing's happening. Oh, these pens are a waste of time. I'm going to throw the pen. I'm never going to use it again. So I do feel like that's a lot of what's happened with journey maps and we've seen it, especially in the tech space, when it comes to seeing, oh, we have a journey map and it's actually a user flow or it's a process flow, or it's a touchpoint map, which are all great things, but it's not going to accomplish your goals. So I keep trying to take it back to what is your goal. And I think that that productization of journey mapping that you mentioned is absolutely one of the key reasons. And another one that we see a lot on, you know, a lot of customer journey members touch on is the fluffy aspect.

Chelsea:

It's just like you said, if you try to map every single thing, you may not get to the detail required to be successful. So it's similar to what you would do in the retail checkout experience. We've literally just mapped billing, just billing, reading an invoice, paying an invoice. And one of our maps in billing alone were 18 stages. And people are like, but it's three steps. Get the bill, pay the bill, get a receipt. And when you map it, you look at it sort of from this micro angle, you do get into those details. So I think that's another bad reputation is exactly that trying to do too much, not clear on the goal you want to achieve. Not really clear on what the business's overall strategic alignment and direction is because there are so many instances where there is some internal disconnect. You have one stakeholder who wants to map a journey. The rest of the business is on a mission to improving some of the area of it. And this journey is focused on another side. We're saying, the business is on a drive to, you know, really enhance the delivery experience and we're over here mapping the billing experience. So I think that so many different things that can probably cause this bad reputation, but I do feel like it is just the use of journey maps overall, how we're using it or misusing it.

Clare:

The misuse of them. I totally agree. And I think that is a really, really important point actually. What are you actually journey mapping? And is it in line with something that the business is trying to fix or solve or drive forward? And if it isn't, you really shouldn't be journey mapping that thing, it needs to be a priority organizationally and a priority in terms of actually having something to make better. I know when I was kind of doing the consulting side myself, I was talking to a client, I'd be like, "oh, so you're kind of journey mapping, what have you done with that?" And they were like, "look, it's on the wall. Here's my journey map". But what actually do you do with it?

Clare:

Or have you taken from it? Oh, nothing like, "you know, we just know what it is" and having not, you know, used it to drive actual change. And the last thing, one of my gripes is, you know, the amount of investment that goes into the journey mapping tool or the journey mapping consulting or whatever, means that there's no money left to actually fix the problems. So I think you can actually do a lot with not much cash investment. And you know, when I was on the business side, literally I would just get these giant rolls of paper. We had a really great printer at our office, so I could do them on Excel first and it literally would be a case of post-it notes and this big piece of paper, and we would, you know, be able to take insights that were generated through things like the contact centre and establish what the pain points are and the team could take those away and then size them around.

Clare:

Well, how much is that costing us at the moment to be fixing constantly and then be able to go back to the business with like, here's a business case for why we need to fix this experience and that costs nothing. There was just, you know, a positive will in demonstrating the value of bringing people together around a framework and doing that. So, yeah, that would be my piece of advice for listeners, make sure that the investment is actually going on fixing the problems rather than identifying what they are. So, what would your top takeaway for the listeners be then if you could give them like a 1, 2, 3 on either journey mapping or being women in CX, what would you like the listeners to leave with today?

Chelsea:

Well, I'd say because the topic today is intended to be around journey mapping, if you can join me next week at our masterclass, we're going to touch on three key things, because obviously, we're talking about why the bad reputation, but there's no problem without a solution. So, I'm going to tell you a little bit about how to restore that reputation, how to do it a little better and that's around three key areas, which is your people, your action and your outcomes. So there's so much to be had with journey mapping. And one of the best things we always say is that, oh, you know, we have a lot of clients that come to us and say, we want to really drive some customer experience culture. We want this customer-centric mindset. And, I heard this in another podcast and I use it a lot, and I say, you don't do culture. You take action. That drives culture and journey mapping is one of those amazing tools that can be that culture driver, can be that mindset shift. And I feel like that is how you really get to that cultural shift and that customer-centricity, by doing those cross-functional workshops, bringing everyone along the journey and really seeing some change and driving some action and measuring some of those outcomes and seeing the impact that your teams can have and yes, avoiding journey mapping burnout.

Clare:

Yeah. I love that. And yeah, totally with you there, doing customer-focused systems and processes like journey mapping is what changes your culture, using journey mapping to make the systems and processes that face your customers more customer-focused makes you a more customer-focused company. It's not a strat applying or a vision statement, it's action that really does change organisations to literally have customers at the heart of stuff. Not just say that they do. So, this has been super fun, Chelsea. Chatting to you as always. Yeah. If anyone who's listening wants to catch that webinar, you can come and enjoy a seven day free trial of WiCX and see Chelsea's webinar. Or if you'd like to join us later. We actually store all of our webinar content in the Women in CX academy, which is available to watch on-demand, at any time. So, little tiny plug there for the Women in CX community as well. So yeah, that's it, Chelsea. I hope you have an awesome experience with your masterclass next week. I can't wait to see it and yeah, just thank you so much for joining us today.

Chelsea:

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure

Clare:

And thanks to everybody who listened along at home as well. That's it, see you next time. Bye.

Clare:

Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the show, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you are listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world’s first online community for women in customer experience, please check out www.womenincx.community and follow the Women in CX page on LinkedIn.

Join us again next week where I will be talking to one of our community founding members from Germany about the future of Customer Experience, Web 3 and the Metaverse.

See you all next time!