Clare Muscutt talks with Jeannie Walters about CX , inclusivity, resilience and adaptability.
Episode #207 Show Notes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Hey, Jeannie!
Jeannie Walters:
Hey, Clare! So good to see you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
How are you doing today?
Jeannie Walters:
I’m doing great. How are you doing?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, pretty awesome. This will be airing a couple of weeks after I’ve shared the news, but I’m celebrating today because we got the funding to start the Women in CX Community.
Jeannie Walters:
That’s such fantastic news. Congratulations!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Thank you. So, yeah, really buzzing today.
Jeannie Walters:
Very good.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And whereabouts are you joining me from?
Jeannie Walters:
I am just outside the city of Chicago in the United States. So, I live in a place called Oak Park, which some people know because Frank Lloyd Wright, the architect, lived and worked here, so we have a lot of houses designed by him.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Oh, amazing. You’re my first woman in CX from Chicago, officially.
Jeannie Walters:
Oh, nice! Nice. Represent.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah. And how are things going in America? It’s only a few days until the election at the point of recording.
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot I could say there that I probably shouldn’t.
Clare Muscutt – host:
No, that’s fair enough. You don’t have to. I’ve been speaking to a lot of people in America this week. Tensions are quite high, right?
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah. It’s an interesting time, for sure. For sure.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Well, anyway, so we’re here to talk about your amazing journey into CX and get your insights into your perspective on the challenges of CX. So, I’m going to start with my first question, which is – quite simply – how did you make your way into the world of CX?
Jeannie Walters:
Well, like everybody else, we all have these crooked paths to get here, right? Because there wasn’t really anybody in kindergarten who woke up and said, ‘I know what I want to do,’ back then.
So, I actually was in fundraising and marketing right after college, and I was partner at a marketing firm, and really it was just the time where we started looking round, realising that all of a sudden we had this amazing ability where we could speak directly and interact directly with customers for the first time, in some cases, ever. And I worked for a consulting firm, and one of our clients was a large insurance company here, and they were trying to design a website that interacted with customers, and we were part of that team. It was really kind of an ‘Aha!’ moment. I looked around the table, and I thought, ‘You know, there is nobody here representing the customer at all.’ There were people from compliance, and legal, and marketing, and sales, and it was just this moment of clarity, like, ‘Okay, now we’re dealing directly with customers, we’re going to have to think differently. We’re going to have to really stand up for them and advocate for them.’
And so, my partner and I at that moment decided to be a customer experience firm and learn everything we could and started guiding our clients in different directions based on that. Then, in 2009, I started this company on my own, and just kept learning and going and figuring it out on behalf of customers.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s so interesting. I don’t know if it’s maybe changed over time, but why was marketing not assuming the role of representing the customer? You’d think that they would need to kind of have a handle on that.
Jeannie Walters:
I mean, I think part of it was marketing was also changing, where instead of having one singular focus, they were figuring out like, ‘Oh, maybe we need a direct marketing team, and we need a digital marketing team,’ and all these different things. But really, I think their job was to get people into the sales funnel. That was how they were judged; that was how they were accountable. And so, they were focused on that because that what’s they were judged on, and once somebody got in the sales funnel, then they were sales’s problem. And then after that, they were product’s problem, and it just kept going. So, I think that really thinking through, ‘What is that customer journey?’ The conversation was so young at that point. People weren’t talking that way.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So interesting. Yeah, I think we just have to reflect, don’t we? Really, it’s such a new discipline…
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… we’re at 20, 25 years at most since the very beginnings of that word being uttered as customer experience, and it’s exciting that there’s still so much that – now with technology evolving the way that it is – how that dynamic is shifting again, and how much opportunity there is to shape the thinking around that kind of thing.
Jeannie Walters:
For sure.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, that was a great example of you recognising the opportunity, adapting what you did to this new need of being able to represent the customer. I just wondered where you first discovered your ability to adapt to new situations, and what were your biggest learnings from that experience?
Jeannie Walters:
I love this question – and it’s something I haven’t thought about that much, I’ll be honest – but I grew up in the same house that I was born in and lived there for most of my life. And then right after college, I got an offer, a job offer, to go to Las Vegas for a fundraising position. And I literally knew nobody; I knew nothing; I had never bought my own car; I had never rented an apartment; all these things that suddenly I was just dropped into this new place. And it ended up being really challenging, frankly, because I had a boss who was pretty challenging. And then, they shipped me off to Minnesota a few months later, and I had to kind of adapt all over again. And then, they brought me back to Las Vegas. I think it taught me a lot about, ‘You know what? There are times that get tough, that get lonely, that get sad and scary, but if you can just focus on where you’re going and know that nothing is forever – nothing is forever – and so, if we can focus on that, then you can really get through that.’
And I think that was such a great way to build my confidence in knowing that I could try new things, and I could take some risks. And at the end of the day, some of them work and some of them don’t, but you still end up sleeping in your bed. You still end up doing what you need to do every day.
So, I think that’s what I look back to as kind of that moment of building that ability to look around and adapt and just rely on my own resilience, really.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Mm. I think that’s the key word, there, isn’t it? Resilience. I can’t remember the right saying, but it’s something to do with like everything begins at the end of your comfort zone…
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… and when you’re dropped into those new situations and you have no option other than to sink or swim or adapt and succeed. I think it’s something interesting that you raised there: some things work, and some things don’t. I personally had a really good run early on of pretty much everything – after college, university, Master’s degree, first kind of roles – had this huge experience of success, and when I had my first failure, it was probably quite a lot later than most people, and it knocked me for six because what I hadn’t developed is that experience of failure and everything being okay…
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… or having that attitude of: ‘I’m going to sleep in my bed tonight no matter what.’
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, that’s a really important learning, I think.
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s really important to know that it’s okay to fail, and to know that you always come out with something, and even if it’s really painful – and I am not a person who says, ‘Everything happens for a reason,’ I think that’s kind of bunk – but I do think that if you have that growth mindset, which is something I talk to my kids about a lot, maybe you’re not going to succeed the first time, but that doesn’t mean that you’re a failure; it means you’re trying to take risks. There’s a famous quote about – I think Theodore Roosevelt – who talks about ‘being the man in the arena’, right?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yes!
Jeannie Walters:
It’s really easy to throw stones when you’re in the crowd, but when you’re ‘the man in the arena’ – and the woman…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Woman in the arena, yeah.
Jeannie Walters:
That’s right. Then, you’re sticking your neck out. You’re taking risks. And there are benefits and there are real risks to that. So, you have to kind of figure out where your comfort zone is, and where you can push yourself just a little – within reason. I don’t want anybody doing anything crazy. But I think it’s an important thing to learn and to share. Some of the most amazing successful people failed a lot before they got there.
Clare Muscutt – host:
But no one ever talks about their failures, do they? They just appeared on the earth as this massive success, but no…
Jeannie Walters:
That’s right.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… when they tell their stories, there’s a huge amount of experience that was going through things not working out.
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That just reminded me of another one. I decided to learn to snowboard at 30…
Jeannie Walters:
Nice.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… never been on a mountain in my life. Like, most people start by skiing first, don’t they? And then they move into snowboarding. But I was determined that I was going to learn this new skill. I always remember the instructor saying to me in French – well, in his French accent, and I’m not going to try and do it – but I was scared of falling over, and he was saying to me, ‘The falls are part of how you get the experience to learn how it feels to be able to turn when you’re going down the mountain.’ So, he said, ‘If you’re not falling over, you’re probably not trying hard enough.’
Jeannie Walters:
There you go.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, I always remember that.
Jeannie Walters:
That’s great advice. Did you learn?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m still terrible, but 10 years…
Jeannie Walters:
That’s okay.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… I still go every year apart from, obviously, this year.
Jeannie Walters:
I didn’t start running until I was 41, and I’m still like the slowest runner ever, but I just decided, ‘I’m going to do this,’ because my kid was running and I thought, ‘Why wouldn’t I do that? Why wouldn’t I just try that?’ And so, I think that’s really – and my dad took up skiing at 50. He had never been on a mountain, and he became this, like…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Great skier.
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah. He loved skiing. So, it’s one of those things. I think you’re never too late; it’s never too late to try.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, I think running is an even better metaphor, isn’t it? Because you can’t run very far or very fast very quickly, especially if you’re starting from zero, and it takes a few steps of running, a few steps of walk, doesn’t it? And so, you build up your fitness to be able to do it. I think that’s also similar to career journeys and CX…
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah. It’s true. It’s true.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… not being able to, as I say, expecting to do it all at once. So, given that we’ve just talked about resilience, adaptability, and change – I mentioned the current climate when I said I couldn’t go skiing this year – but what changes are you seeing in the world of customer experience and business more broadly?
Jeannie Walters:
I’m actually – this is a weird way to answer this because here we are towards the end of 2020, which has been a year unlike any other, and people have been suffering. And I just want to acknowledge that because this was a really hard year for a lot of people.
I think what I see right now is innovation that is based on the right reasons, and I get very excited about that because I think it’s very easy for brands to kind of drag their feet, to consider something not important enough, even when it’s really important to customers; even when it would serve them more; even if it would make their day a little better. And in the last 10 months, what we’ve seen is brands are realising like, ‘Oh, this isn’t a nice-to-have anymore; this is really important. Our customers need us to innovate around how we deliver their products and services. They need us to provide more communication channels and not fewer. They need us to stand up for them, and to show our values.’
I think that’s something I’m really excited about, and I think that the next generations that are coming up are pushing values more than ever, and that will be a game-changer, as well, and it already is. They’re starting to buy based on, you know, ‘Is this really environmentally friendly? Is this really supporting the social justice movement?’ All of these different things that are incredibly personal and meaningful to people, they’re starting to apply that lens to the customer relationships that they have. And I think that brands are realising, ‘This is not something we can ignore. This is not something we can act like it’s not happening. We have to actually step up, and live our values, and show our values, and innovate on behalf of our customers, not just for innovation’s sake.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s interesting. It’s like brands are getting woke, kinda.
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah. That’s a good way to say it. I mean, they really are. And you know, thank goodness they are! Because I think a lot of people have been silently seething about some of these things but didn’t feel like they had another way. And now, there’s enough momentum and there’s this critical mass of people who are willing to say, ‘You know what? We’re not going to do this. We’re not going to participate in this way as customers unless you really show us who you are and live up to that.’ And I think that the transparency around that, and the authenticity around that, that will continue to be something that will grow and expand.
I mean, people will put their money where their heart is, right? And I think that’s really compelling for, not just customer experience, but kind of for the human race, you know? We’re all in this together, and we need to figure out, ‘How can we take care of one another?’ And I think that’s kind of exciting.
Clare Muscutt – host:
There’s two words that particularly resonated with me when you were talking then, about being ‘genuine’ and ‘authentic’ in this. I know we saw a lot this year brands being performative allies to causes – and you mentioned social justice, so Black Lives Matter this year; even Pride – and nobody buys it anymore if it isn’t real. They want to see the proof. ‘Show me: where did the rubber meet the road where you actually did something to make a difference?’
So, for example, I know there was a company whose CEO stepped down in order to allow a black colleague to take on his role or her role, and that’s true evidence of making a difference. Whereas some companies have been posting like ‘Black Out Tuesday’ social media, but the colleagues that work for them were speaking up and saying, ‘Hang on a minute. We’ve got institutionalised racism happening right here.’
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah. Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’ve had – I’ve been subject to bias and speaking out on social media. So, I think that’s the really important thing. Yes, brands taking a stand and a step forward in their ethics. And that ‘leading with heart’ – customers putting their money where their heart is – I absolutely love that. I think that’s a fabulous thing. I’m going to coin that. But it has to be real, and there has to be evidence, and the experience is a great place to do that, right?
Jeannie Walters:
Well, and I would just add to that that I think one of the things customer experience still has to work on with this is representation in order to design better experiences for all customers. So, if you serve a customer base that is diverse, you better have diverse people on your customer experience team because otherwise, you’re only getting that one lens; you’re not really reaching out; you’re not understanding some of the biases that happen, some of the stories that we’ve heard from customers that are really scary and compelling because they’re hurtful. We need to own that. We need to say that we need to do a better job of that, and not just Black Lives Matter and things like that, but also customers with disabilities; how are we serving them?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Agreed.
Jeannie Walters:
How are we making sure that our products are providing them accessible experiences? And so, there’s so much around this topic that I think we need to just do a better job talking about it. We need to do a better job asking for that representation when we are in a position to do so. Look around the room and ask, ‘Is this representative of our customers?’ And if not, ‘What are we going to do about that?’
And so, I think that there is lots of room for improvement on this, but I think this year in particular we did see some movement on that leadership. We saw some movement on awareness – I think it’s safe to say people are much more aware that they used to be – and my hope is that we can continue that momentum until we get to a place where we really are representative of our customer bases.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. I totally agree with you. And it’s inclusive design, right?
Jeannie Walters:
Mmhmm.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, anything that excludes people – whether it’s sexual orientation, gender, disability, age – there’s so much we can do if we have the right representation. And it wouldn’t be the Women in CX podcast if I didn’t say ‘patriarchy’ at least once, but from a business leadership perspective, so long as the power resides in the white middle-class male that’s rich, that diversity and inclusion is never going to be truly tackled, but that’s from me.
Jeannie Walters:
I’m with you. I mean, can we talk about ‘manels’? Have you ever heard that phrase?
Clare Muscutt – host:
No. What are manels?
Jeannie Walters:
So, if you ever go to a conference and the panel of experts are all men…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yes!
Jeannie Walters:
… that’s a manel.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s a manel! I’ve sat on so many manels before, then.
Jeannie Walters:
Mmhmm, yeah, so…
Clare Muscutt – host:
The only woman.
Jeannie Walters:
Yes. Yes. Well, then you are helping defeat the manel just by being there, but it is – I mean, we can talk about tokenism too – but the whole idea of women make 80 per cent of the household consumer decisions, in most cases, and yet so many leadership panels don’t have them, or they don’t invite women into that thought leadership role. And so, I think that’s something that is getting better, and I applaud the people who are thinking like this. A lot of event planners are starting to really think through who they’re inviting, and I applaud those efforts, but I think we have a ways to go, too.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah. Some voices do need to be amplified, right? Because of bias or perhaps there just being less people that represent that group in the visible portion, let’s say, of any industry or profession. Sometimes, we have to seek out people to give them the platform that we might have been lucky enough to have and help to do that.
Jeannie Walters:
Absolutely.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I won’t bore anybody on the podcast, your podcast now, but I put something in the newsletter about this intersectional feminism that as white women – I know you’ve got a husband and kids – of straight sexual orientation, we have it a lot easier than a lot of other women. So, how can we acknowledge that, embrace that, and do what we can to help people who are having more challenges – whether it’s age, race, disability, sexual orientation – to find that platform too?
Jeannie Walters:
Right.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’ll just get back down off my soapbox. Hang on.
Jeannie Walters:
It’s an important – I mean, all of these are really important topics and really complicated, and I think it’s easy to not talk about them, in some ways, and so I really am encouraged by some of the discussions that are happening and some of the things that, you know, we’re acknowledging for, in some cases, the first time ever. And that’s no small thing.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I really appreciate you being this open and talking about some of those thorny issues with me today.
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah, they’re really important. I think it’s our job, just like you talked about. We sometimes get platforms, and we’re in the room, sometimes, when other people aren’t, and so it’s really important to start asking those questions and making sure that we are looking out for other people.
I mean, my whole thing with customer experience is it is human experience, right? So, if we are looking around and thinking, ‘Well, this is a small group of humans represented,’ then that’s an issue. And we also have to be aware – like, you and I can’t speak for all women…
Clare Muscutt – host:
We shouldn’t try to.
Jeannie Walters:
Right, exactly. So, we need to make sure that we’re constantly seeking out those voices…
Clare Muscutt – host:
And giving them the chance to speak also…
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I totally agree.
Jeannie Walters:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, I took us off a bit of a tangent there, but I enjoyed it.
Jeannie Walters:
Sorry. I’m good at those.
Clare Muscutt – host:
No, I loved it. I loved it. It really got my chills going now.
But back to this theme of adaptability and resilience. Now, I know we had a chat before we decided to record this and shared some of our stories about how we we’re adapting our lives and our businesses, but I saw on your Instagram today, you were wearing a LinkedIn hat. You’re now a LinkedIn trainer for CX, is that right?
Jeannie Walters:
Yeah, I’ve been a LinkedIn Learning instructor for…
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s it!
Jeannie Walters:
… I think since 2017, was my first course. And so, I’ve done four courses with them. They’re a really fabulous team to work with. They have – I mean, there are so many courses; you can find anything you want on that platform. It’s amazing what they do. I’ve been really honoured and privileged to be there, but the best part is that I hear from people all over the world, almost every day, who tell me, ‘I just watched your course.’ It’s an accessible way to introduce these ideas around customer experience, and so that part I get really jazzed about because it’s fun to hear from people from…
Clare Muscutt – host:
All walks of life.
Jeannie Walters:
… like Africa, Saudi Arabia. Who next? I think that LinkedIn Learning does such a great job with really making sure that everything is high quality but also incredibly accessible. So, yeah. So, they sent me a hat, which I brought downstairs – I wish I had it so I could put it on – but they sent me a hat yesterday, so that’s what that picture was.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Ladies, head over to Jeannie’s Instagram and you can see the hat in full glory.
Jeannie Walters:
There you go. There you go… @jeanniewalters on Instagram.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Excellent plug. Excellent. So, that’s kind of like the training side. Is training something you’ve always done?
Jeannie Walters:
I don’t know if I can say ‘always’ but for a long time now, at least since I started this business in 2009. Because what I found was – I started really traditionally consulting and doing a lot of journey mapping and things like that with clients, and then they would say, ‘This is a great skill. We should have everybody know how to do this,’ so I was like, ‘Great! I’ll teach them.’
So, that kind of started down that path. Since then, I’ve been doing a lot of online training with groups, and at different conferences, I do workshops and things like that. So, I love it. I absolutely love it because it’s – there’s something really special about seeing people get it, you know? There’s something really cool when that happens, and I think knowing then that people use those skills and improve other people’s experiences, that’s what this is all about. So, I really get jazzed about it.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And there’s something about in real life, isn’t there though, compared to online?
Jeannie Walters:
Ah, yes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
When you actually see the lightbulbs come on surrounding a journey map. I miss those days.
Jeannie Walters:
I know. It’s hard. It’s definitely harder virtually, but some of the clients that I work with virtually, I’ve had the privilege of working with them for a while, so we’ve had – you know, my last workshop was the last week of February, and then I flew home on March 1st and I’ve been here ever since. And so, at least I got the opportunity to work with some folks this year, and we’re continuing that work virtually.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, in terms of your business now, is it less consulting, more online training, speaking?
Jeannie Walters:
Yes. I wish I had the perfect formula here, but I think it’s – this year, in particular, there’s been a lot more around that thought leadership umbrella, like keynote speaking virtually and workshops virtually, as well as I do a lot of writing for clients, as well. So, I help them – and webinars and things like that, so sometimes just for their customers. So, sometimes, they bring me in to help their customers if they’re like a software provider or folks like that. Sometimes, I’m doing that kind of for an event, a conference of some sort.
But the writing, I’m doing a lot of blogs and articles and guides for various clients, as well, who put that out as their lead gen and things like that. So, it’s a way to help more people, which I am happy that I’ve had that opportunity this year, specifically.
So, I feel really grateful about how this year has gone and just that I have clients who continue to call me. I mean, that’s a great feeling, but it’s also – again, I kind of recognise that’s not the norm right now, and I feel really grateful that I have some great relationships that I’m happy about.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And do you have – correct me if I’m wrong – I thought I saw on your LinkedIn profile a bit of a niche in healthcare?
Jeannie Walters:
I’ve done some healthcare, specifically around speaking. And that actually was born from a personal experience, where in 2014, my family and I were in an almost-head on collision with an impaired driver, and we were all really banged up. I actually broke my – I shattered my fourth metacarpal on my right hand, so my right hand was shattered. My younger son broke his clavicle from the seatbelt, actually, which, you know, thank goodness! And my older son was fine at the scene but when we came home, he ended up in the paediatric ICU for a couple days because of a reaction to the dust off the airbag; he has asthma and ended up in a really bad state. So, after that experience – because we were on vacation, the closest urgent care or emergency centre was actually across the state line, and then we ended up coming back to Chicago, so we were dealing with the health system in all these different ways.
So, about a year later, I developed a keynote about it. And I had been working with a group that puts on different conferences, and they had a healthcare patient experience one. So, I just reached out and said, ‘I’d love to just try this.’ And then, I stood on the stage and I was like, ‘What am I thinking? Why would I do this?’ Because it’s all the healthcare providers, and I was about to tell them all off, but it went really well. And so, from there, I’ve done that one several times, and then I’ve had a workshop, as well, where I work with various healthcare providers on patient experience issues that are beyond the surveys because here in the United States, they’re very focused on the surveys.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Survey-crazy, yeah. I had a conversation with Diane Magers this week, and she was saying the same thing, ‘Where we’ve gone wrong in CX in the US is this obsession with trying to measure and survey everything, and that being the focus rather than the action to drive change.’
But what a wonderful tip or piece of advice for women in CX: if you’ve had a personal experience that you could turn into a talk, what a great way to get fodder and inspiration for something really powerful. So, that’s really cool to hear.
And as we’re running out of time, I guess that’s my final question, really: in addition to all these wonderful little piles of wisdom you shared today, is there any specific advice that you’d give to women in customer experience to help them develop their own resilience and adaptability now?
Jeannie Walters:
I mean, I’m a big believer in trusting your gut. I think that sometimes we lean into what we think people expect from us. We think that we have to live up to certain things. We think we have to speak the same way as other people. We think we have to rely on the same data as everybody else. I mean, sometimes, you just know, and in customer experience, what a gift, right? Like, I’ve been in meetings where I’ve looked around the room and everybody says, ‘Yes, that’s a terrible way to treat people,’ and then they say, ‘We better send out 20,000 surveys to check.’ No, you don’t! You don’t need to do that.
If you know something’s not right, then fight for it. Fight for your customers. That’s when I feel like I’ve won is when I can advocate for customers in a way that is just the right thing to do, and I think everybody knows that, and so trust that intuition.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Nice. That’s a great final point to end on there, then. So, I’d just like to say thanks so much for joining me today.
Jeannie Walters:
Thank you! This was so fun. Thank you for the invitation. And keep up the great work! Congratulations on the funding.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Thank you so much. And thanks to everyone listening at home. Take care! Bye, now.