Moving From CX-Washing to Real Transformation: Honest, Customer-Centric Experiences, with Joanna Carr
Episode #804 Show Notes:
Clare:
We’re back with another episode of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast! A series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience and technology. For Series 8, we’re raising the bar—pushing boundaries, sparking bold ideas, and challenging the CX status quo. Expect fresh perspectives, fearless discussions, and a celebration of women driving change in our industry.
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt, and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to a seriously super lady from Norway. She is a CX Consultant at Allegro, a tech and communication bureau in Norway. Her expertise lies in shaping strategic CX direction, pioneering CX program development, and optimising B2B and B2C journeys to deliver seamless, customer-first experiences.
Beyond her consultancy role, she’s a co-host of ‘The CXPod’, a contributor to CX literature, and serves on the Advisory Board at IHM Business School in Stockholm. With a passion for connection, growth, and excellence, she’s driving change in the CX space—one experience at a time. Please allow me to introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, Joanna Carr!
Clare
Hi Joanna!
Joanna
Hi Clare.
Clare
Welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast.
Joanna
Thank you so much. It's wonderful to have the opportunity to join you and join you on the Women in CX podcast and not The CXPod this time.
Clare
Yeah, because I came on your podcast recently, didn't I? I really enjoyed that conversation. It was super fun. And welcome to all our lovely listeners wherever you are in the world as well. So as always with our podcast, we're just going to jump straight into the first question about your career journey and how you ended up where you are today. Tell us more about Joanna Carr!
Joanna
Yeah, my career journey, I have…I feel like I've worked in the customer-centric area all my life. Well, since the age of what, 16 or something? Started off in Tesco, so we have some similarities there, but I was simply behind the cash desk at that point.
Clare
Retail backgrounds - very important!
Joanna
Yes! But yeah, I've worked with some great brands, like Estée Lauder and Bobbi Brown, in some awesome stores, such as Selfridges and a short debut at Harrods. And in moving to Norway, which is where I now live - originally from England. I worked for Nordics for Rituals, which was where I would say my journey into customer experience started because I felt that this was a company that truly was not only customer-centric but human-centric. The employee experience - everything was so well thought out. And it wasn't just thought out; the culture was there, the mindset was there, right? Distilled right from the top management down. And I just basically saw an opportunity for very many other companies to encompass this way of working. And realise greater value outcomes of doing so.
So I decided that I wanted to be a customer experience consultant and just started filling my backpack, so to say, with everything that I could from CX Academy, service design, emotional intelligence, all of these sorts of things to...that would make me feel ready and brave enough to jump out and actually take on the role as a customer experience consultant, which I've now done for four years. So yes, that's really the background.
Clare
Yeah, I remember. I think I was part of your backpack-packing, wasn't I?
Joanna
Yeah, you were!
Clare
In the pandemic, or just before the pandemic, in fact, and I remember you reaching out to me and telling me that you were considering making this leap and asking for some advice on how to navigate that transition and look at you now! You did it!
Joanna
I know, yeah, I did. Thank you so much for that. And I think that is one of the awesome things as well with our, I would say, our community.
Clare
Yeah, it is ours. It is!
Joanna
Yeah, is that the people…you know, I've had so many experiences of actually reaching out to people like yourself Clare, and being welcomed almost with open arms and offers of help and advice. And I think that's been, that has been a real difference maker, I would say, for getting me from there to where I am today. So, yeah, thank you, Clare.
Clare
Oh, more than welcome! So, today, we're going to be talking about how customer experience strategy can boost a brand's success. And the fact that many companies that create amazing ads, for example, or have a lot of investment in marketing campaigns, really struggle to deliver on their promises. This is really prompted by a recent post I'd seen on LinkedIn about CX washing, which I'd never heard before. Where you really started to raise that issue of businesses talking like they really put customers at the centre of their brand, but in reality, that isn't the case.
And I know from my perspective, less so on the advertising side, but I guess I see it a lot with my clients when they're struggling, they've got it on a strategy document somewhere. They've got it pasted on their walls, probably, that they put the customers at the heart of everything they do or that they desire to do that. But when you actually interrogate it, it's very little evidence. So, I think our listeners would love to hear a little bit more about this kind of concept of CX washing from your perspective and ways in which brands can boost their success with customer experience.
Joanna
Yeah, I think this is a huge topic, which is a topic I'm just, again, embarking on. But, you know, I've sort of been thinking about this, that we talk a lot about green washing, but what about CX washing? It's where a company communicates, as you say, either on a strategy document or particularly on their website. If you go into their...either their values, what they stand for, or if you go into their customer service portal, you'll see things like "customer- first", customer... "best-in-class customer service, before, during, after”. And this is basically promises that they are publicly putting out there and then actually not, what should I say?
Clare
Delivering?
Joanna
Truly, yeah, truly standing behind these commitments.
Joanna
And I think this is a lack of so many things, but a lack of…for example, management understanding that our brand platform is communicating that we are customer-centric, but what does this actually mean? What does it mean that we need to do with our digital platforms? What does it mean we need to do with training of our employees? You know, all of these things. And I recently had a…gave a talk or a seminar, and in preparation, I did some hunting of some stories. I think John Sills is another person who's great at sharing these CX stories.
Clare
Amazing, yeah.
Joanna
But you know, I had this one from - and I think this is a great example. It's a clothes company, which is huge. It's international. They've just gone over to introducing these self-service checkout desks. There was a customer who had just finished paying for something - got the self-service checkout desks because she didn't want to overlaste - overlaste, that's a Norwegian word. But you know, she saw this... a huge queue. So she thought she would be sensible, use the self-checkout. And when she's paid, she discovers there's a footprint on the blouse and automatically thinks, “Well, that's okay. I'll change it”.
And how many managers did it take to change this one blouse? One, two, three, four? No, it actually took five managers to just change this simple blouse. And I mean, this is where a company has done a product or a service design to add value, most probably to themselves. But, what it ends up doing in is actually decreasing value for themselves, and for the customer because the customer has basically said since then she has then since boycotted this store. And I thought, is this a one-off story, or is it not? No, it's not a one-off story. This company has so many bad reviews of customer experience and customer service, but what do they communicate themselves on their website? Customer first. And it's like, okay, how can you say that when you are delivering something over and over and over again, completely the opposite of what you actually say?
Joanna
And I mean, that's just one story. So there's loads and loads of stories like these. I recently bought a car, Clare, and not many people draw up their customer journey, but I drew up my customer journey. It's been a terrible experience basically because I am now the ‘guest user’ of my car, not the primary user, because I bought the car together with my husband, and you can only have one primary user. To cut a long …
Clare
And they chose your husband.
Joanna
…they chose my husband. To cut a really long story short, it ended up with a communication with them saying that I could not contact them again without permission from the primary user. Now, what do they communicate that they stand for on their website? Okay, they stand for two things: sustainability and community. So sustainability, they've failed miserably at that because they're basically saying we should have two cars. If I want all the functions that my husband can have on the car app, then we should have two cars. And community, I'm kicked out of the community. So they've basically failed on both of their communications that they stand for when it comes to customer centricity. It just infuriates me!
Clare
Are you going to name and shame? I want to know who it is. What brand is that?
Joanna
Yeah, Volkswagen and I am absolutely... and again, this is something that they could have fixed many years ago because I've been in and looked at the app and - well, the forums. And I've seen many people have commented on this, and that's one of the things I commented in my communication, yeah, "I don't understand why you haven't improved this or changed this?" But no…
Clare
It's also the sexism inherent in that as well, isn't there? So there are two buyers of the car, yet they chose the man - the male - to be the primary customer. Maybe go back with that one.
Joanna
Yeah, I guess that was…yeah, I know. I think maybe that's because my husband picked it up. But I mean, if we were thinking about the customer journey, they would have been able to; they should already know that that's a problem. So they should have said to my husband, you know, you can't get…we don't have the ability to give the same functions to primary and yeah. But yeah, I know.
Clare
So there's so much we can unpack in what you've just said. So first, I think we need to kind of go to the first example that you gave, which was about the supermarket. And I think…
Joanna
It wasn't a supermarket; it was actually a clothes store.
Clare
Oh, it wasn't - a clothes store, sorry. When you say…
Joanna
It was a clothes store. I can name and shame them as well.
Clare
Go on!
Joanna
It was Zara.
Clare
Zara, yeah, they've definitely not implemented self-checkouts well at all! Coming from retail, big box retail, like supermarkets myself, when I went and used their self-checkout, I was just like, what the heck? This has not been thought through at all. But anyway, we'll forgive Zara for that. However, I think where this stems from is the failure to blend customer experience and operating model together.
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
So they're considered as two completely isolated things. The ways in which, let's say, for example, stores work, it's very complicated, isn't it? So I can imagine Zara was like, okay, we want to try self-checkouts because we want to reduce our costs, which should reduce our queues, it should be good for customers. But ultimately, it means we probably need to staff less checkouts at quieter times, for example. So the logic is all there, isn't there? There's a business reason. And the operating model of a store, as we said, is very complicated, but there hasn't been that consideration of…if we put in a completely new way of our customers checking out, what does that mean rather than just cost reduction in our operating model? What does that mean we need to do differently in order to address this? And, like you said, what happens when there's something wrong? What happens when there is a return? What happens in these scenarios?
And I think for me, this is where customer experience design is the thing that we're missing in being able to relook at this thing and say, okay, so we want to put self-checkouts in, great. Let's now spend a bit of time - and it doesn't even have to be that long - thinking this through. Let's think about our typical customer using self-checkout for the first time or even this migration of behaviour from manned checkouts in a clothing store to self-checkouts. Let's think of those scenarios where it could go wrong. What would we do within our operating model and also then our processes to be able to resolve and deal with those things. And it just doesn't happen. I'm all for agility, you know, let's test and learn, and, you know, try new technologies. But literally, if you'd spent half a day thinking about that stuff, you would have come out with a different conclusion and avoided what becomes operational problems further down the line, doesn't it? Because, as you said, it takes six people to then be able to return a shirt, in that case.
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
But also you said about culture earlier as well, didn't you? So, I'm going to ask you more about Rituals and how they managed to go from brand promise to the execution consistently in their stores. But it's a culture and a policy thing as well, isn't it? So they could have just gone, “This shirt's got a footprint on it. We'll go and grab the shirt and we'll just sort it out ourselves because we don't quite know how to do it.” And there's going to be, you know, challenge - what a customer really wanted was just that clean version of a shirt. The tag in that - the tag is the same. It's the same stock item. If we could just exchange it and say, really sorry about that. We'll take that one away. We'll give you that one. They can go, and then you can fix it afterwards. There's a mindset thing that isn't there, like the prioritisation of what's important here. Is it navigating the policy in the process? Or is it something that actually is really easy to resolve just by us behaving in the most common sense way for that customer?
Joanna
Yeah, absolutely.
Clare
So, for me, that's three intersections, isn't there? Like not creating customer experience and operating model harmony, and Olga Potaptseva always talks about creating these harmonious operating models with customer experience, because it's got to be able to do both, hasn't it? A good customer experience for your customer that works commercially from an operating point of view.
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
But also then this intersection with behaviour, culture, decision-making, even just thinking in the moment and how critical that is in being able to solve some of those issues, right? And then let's unpick that one that you said with Volkswagen. So you said, for whatever reason, there's this problem that you cannot change a customer as the primary driver once it's been done. Like surely, that is not an impossible thing to fix? But the way that they've handled that with you is basically to say you can't actually speak to us unless you've got your husband's permission. If I was you, I would take a completely different route. I would just be shouting sexism from the rooftops here, but...
Joanna
Yeah, and I was, and I mean, their communication was absolutely horrendous. And it was probably written from ChatGTP.
Clare
Chat GTP.
Joanna
It was a lot of ‘kindly this’ and ‘kindly that and very little empathy. I also offered, of course, being in this branch…
Clare
In customer experience, yeah!
Joanna
I offered the opportunity to…
Clare
Talk to you.
Joanna
…like a qualitative talk to me. They thanked me and they never got back.
Clare
Yeah, which is like all of the real problems of customer experience today, isn't it? And when it comes to contact centres, I think that is a great example. So AI has generated this response for you, probably what they've just got from their knowledge base, fired back out to you. And the intention behind listening to customers, or even if they ask you for feedback, I'm sure you probably got a survey at some point. How do you rate your purchase experience? You're like zero, it's been terrible, but there's no... no one's proactively reaching out to you to say, okay, how do we resolve this for you, and how do we make that improvement for the future?
But one more thing I thought we could unpick there, and I know that I'm working with a client at the moment, and we're talking about customers first at the very early stages of something in transformation for them that's going to be like a two-year journey. And for me, I think it's also about the definition upfront of…well, what do we actually mean by that? What is our purpose? What is our mission? What are our values? If we're going to say one is customer first, how do we articulate that? What does that mean in terms of creating a brand promise that we can deliver? And then how, if you imagine that's at the top of the triangle of business strategy, what does that then mean about the strategic decisions we make? Or the priorities that we have.
Clare
And again, there's this disconnect, isn't there? We just put ‘customer-first’ at the top of something and then just think by ticking that box and having it written everywhere that then that is going to actually metastasise into something where our culture, our product, our service proposition and our values are delivered on a day-to-day basis, which just doesn't work. It just is impossible. It doesn't happen by, like, I can't think what the right word is…osmosis!
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
Statements that kind of somehow miraculously do that. And for me, I think it's a top tip for listeners is then like, how do you turn this into something more tangible? So with a client that I'm working with at the moment, you know, doing all of that work on vision, story, purpose, mission, values, identifying who are we for, you know, having things like really clear customer segments, personas, customer understanding, in terms of the needs of those different customer groups. Where are we going to play in the market, and where are we going to win? Is service going to be differentiated for us? But then, taking that brand promise and going, right, let's create a proposition wheel that articulates if this was really true, if we were delivering that brand promise, what would our customers see, feel and experience? And then using that as a way to, I suppose, like guide decisions, but also like, let's look at measures today. What do we measure that tells us whether or not this is important to customers?
Joanna
Yes.
Clare
So, I know back in my days in Sainsbury's, there were things that we did amazingly well on that really weren't that important to customers. I think sustainability is really important, but in their day-to-day decision-making, they like the brands to be taking care of the supply chain, that kind of thing. But what was really important - and what we were really bad at going back a few years - was speed when it's important. So check out, queues at checkout. That's something really, really important that customers were saying we're really dissatisfied about.
So rather than continuing to do loads…more and more stuff on sustainability communications, how do we balance that with actually, no, we really need to make a step change in that checkout experience and being able to evaluate those things simultaneously? But yeah, so from a brand point of view, customer satisfaction metrics, but also, what are we doing that kind of shows us that we're against what we're saying we want to offer. So you can do a workshop with, okay, this is our brand promise. Let's articulate that as a proposition wheel. Let's get everyone together and say, what do we do today that shows our customers that we're doing this element? And what are we doing that shows us we're not? And actually that can be such a telling experience for leadership and for internal teams to question actually and see that difference that we can see really easily because we're in the field.
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
But actually, when your day-to-day job maybe isn't customer experience, it isn't that obvious in all cases.
Joanna
No. Yeah, I'm 100% behind you there, Clare. I have two exercises that I love doing. The first is initially, when I very first kick off any sort of customer experience project is actually getting them to go scouting after things they're already promising. And they often don't know. So I say, well, go and have a look at your website. And then they find all these sorts of things that they're promising…
Clare
Yeah.
Joanna
…Making clear expectations out of, and then I say, okay sort those… of those that you've listed now, sort them into ‘these are easy to deliver on’,’ these are difficult to deliver on’, ‘these are sort of..’ And just that one exercise helps to get us on a sort of a starting point of, okay we shouldn't be promising them because we think they're really difficult to deliver on. So I love that one!
Clare
Yeah.
Joanna
And the other thing is, and it's very much like your proposition…
Clare
Proposition wheel.
Joanna
Yeah! It is an experience compass that I also developed with one client of mine, which was, again, putting their experience mission or vision in the centre and then looking at the life cycle of the customer journey and saying, okay, well, what do we need to deliver in these different stages of the life cycle that are going to help us towards our mission? And everybody in the company, this was only about 40 employees though, but everybody in the company was part of that workshop. So they were actually there defining, okay, what do we need to do to deliver on our customer, towards our customer vision? So yeah, I think involvement is a huge clue.
Clare
Yeah, collaboration, engagement, having one shared perspective, I suppose, on what these things mean, having that documented, and then it's the fun stuff, isn't it? Then how do you actually make that a reality? So, for me, for example, in one of these projects I'm working on at the moment, is then working on what does that mean in terms of operating model? So, how do you bring in customer needs analysis? How do you bring in current state analysis? How do you build the, I suppose, tools in a way to be able to set out what the future vision would look like? And therefore, what is the implementation planning we're going to need to do, over perhaps the course of a couple of years, to deliver on this stuff? But also, from the strategic perspective, what are the capabilities that we're going to need to develop? In terms of systems, people, processes, and technology to be able to not only architect that vision for the future but actually make it happen.
And so many of those things now in the age of technology, artificial intelligence, and digitisation, it has to be this meeting of worlds: customer, employee, business, strategy, and operating model. I just think there's… I feel like what we're doing in this project, there's a couple of us from Women in CX actually working on this together, is pioneering this new approach to bring in those things together more holistically. Whereas I think we're still stuck in a customer experience a lot of the time. The practitioners are just stuck in this kind of measure, monitor, evaluate, feedback loop and all the investments going on, like very expensive net promoter score type evaluations. And nothing is changing. And the business isn't doing anything with that insight because, actually, the insight doesn't really mean that much without being able to bring it back into strategy.
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
Oh my God, I could go on all day. But I did just want to ask a little bit more about, rather than us just discussing it, I think, you know, talking a little bit more about your experience at Rituals because I love going to Rituals in the airport. I love the sink. I love getting to do the little hand wash, and everything about it is experiential, isn't it?
Joanna
Yeah.
Clare
You know, from the store design to the products to the people that serve you in that space, it does feel that you just walk into a little oasis temporarily. And that is really hard to do, isn't it? To be so consistent, like what your brand stands for, this whole concept of Rituals and actually feeling, even if you're in a really busy airport, you can have a little minute of a ritual in that little sink, in the store experience. So what would you say, from the operational delivery point of view, what are some of the key markers that our listeners should be thinking about? In terms of how you actually make the promise a reality based on your experience.
Joanna
Yeah, so I think 100% it's management commitment. So in Rituals, the CEO, Raymond Cloosterman, is 100% committed to…and when he was asked what makes Rituals successful, he said, “It's not one thing, it's the hundreds and thousands of details”. He understands that, he understands that the experience is made by all of the details transpiring from the design of the shops, from the training, from the culture, from the technology from the products, from the stories they tell. And I think that because he gets that, and the top management actually has a clear vision or mission, they have a mission of turning everyday moments into meaningful, everyday routines into meaningful moments. And that is like a driving force throughout. Everything that happens within Rituals, from when you apply for a job from your first day at work from all of your employee… what should I say, high…meaning… what they called?
Clare
I can't speak Norwegian, so I can't help you.
Joanna
Yeah, I know, like your, sort of, peaks or your meaningful moments in an employee's life journey. All of these are thought out. Even an everyday work meeting, it's how do we turn an everyday work meeting from a routine into a meaningful moment? They even think about what kind of lunch shall we order that can go together with the theme we're going to talk about today. So that is the way they work all the time.
Clare
Yeah.
Joanna
There's a huge focus on training. There's a huge focus on employees that have the right mindset. A huge focus on ensuring that all the employees have the knowledge, the tools and - what should I say - the motivational procedures to deliver against the expectations. Everybody goes through what they call "root camp", which is the equivalent... yeah, root camp. Which is like their two-day training; everybody goes through that from head office down. People who work in head office always work in the stores when they first start, and they all work in the stores at Christmas time. So it's this totality of culture, training processes and a clear vision, clear direction I think, is a huge part to play in the success. And of course, the desire to put the customers first or the humans first.
Clare
Yeah, but I think what you've articulated there is it's more than their desire, isn't it? It's like how…let's move away from kind of operating model for a second, but how intentional all of that is. So, you know, the CEO having that vision for himself, like he gets it, he wants this to be part of everything, but then it takes intentional design, doesn't it? Through the colleague journey, like you said. To get the right people in the first place, to train them properly, to induct them. I was going to say indoctrinate, but that's quite a hard word, but bring them into that culture and investing money into them spending time to do that, into performance management, reward recognition, that kind of thing, into career progression, that link between, as a customer and employee experience, you could have a whole podcast discussing the merits of that.
Joanna
Yes.
Clare
But I think that kind of tangible, designable, measurable set of levers that you can pull. It's a fantastic case study example of that being a reality: measures, metrics, alignment with the vision, not just chasing numbers, but holistic evaluation of experience, those peaks and troughs for employees and customers having been thought out collectively. It just shows actually what it takes to deliver great experiences that definitely don't happen by accident; happen by design. Someone famously said that.
Joanna
Yeah. Somebody called Clare Muscutt!
Clare
But I think this is what we're getting to now, isn't it? There's this evolution that's happening all around us. From a market-shifting perspective, technology is shifting the landscape. There are some really big strategic questions we've got about how we make customer orientation and customer experience thinking and customer experience design, things like that, a real strategic asset to businesses. And how do we help, I suppose individuals and businesses see how it can be done, but also what it takes to really make that happen. So rather than just putting a promise on a website and whether we deliver it or not not being a consideration. Asking that question of ourselves as leaders within the SLT or helping our leaders ask themselves those questions, the workshop examples that we gave to say, you know, is this even true? What evidence do we have to say we're delivering against this or not? To create that step change.
I think the really important point is, if we're not prepared to invest in it, and we're not prepared to do it, we're shooting ourselves in the foot by promising it because all we're ever going to get is dissatisfied people. Because you've set an expectation with this brand promise. Like you said, with the car community and sustainability, if you set a promise and then you have no intention of investing in it to deliver it, then stop saying it is the point, isn't it? So it's not… we all have to make a promise and 100% deliver on it. But if we are, we need to. And if we're not, then we need to not promise it in the first place to manage expectations. That sums it up nicely, doesn't it?
So, before we go, I thought it would just be great to ask you, you know, we talked a little bit about community more broadly at the beginning in helping you take career transitions, but how has being part of a community impacted your personal and professional journey to help you get to where you are today, would you say?
Joanna
Yes, it does. I would say that being a part of the community has been, I would say, a crucial factor, and I think way too many people don't invest in a community and then wonder why they're sort of not progressing or they're struggling, or they're still, you know, they're just mediocre, so to say. And the great thing about a community is that you are always learning, you always have the opportunity to challenge yourself.
You know, in Women in CX, for example, I've had the opportunity to present a case (study) there. And this is how we grow; this is how we get better. We learn from sharing, and yeah, that's my take on it. I think that we're generally… everybody should, you know, if there's a, if you have a passion like we do in customer experience and you want to be a change maker, you want to make a difference, then I think you need to be part of the community because we all know it's such a struggle to try and do these things on your own. So yeah, you hear that I'm a huge fan of communities.
Clare
But only when they deliver their brand promise, right?
Joanna
Yes, only with those, exactly. Otherwise, I'm off!
Clare
Yeah, absolutely. So, we talked about so much today. If there's one piece of advice or a takeaway you'd like to leave our listeners with today, what would that be?
Joanna
I think my piece of advice would be to take a real honest, hard look at your…either yourself or your business. If you are communicating that you want to be a customer-centric company or organisation, then take a real honest hard look at, are we actually that? And you know, you can't do everything, but start by finding out! You know, we're communicating something that we're really struggling to deliver on. Okay. Where can we…how can we start the change? We don't have to take on everything, but how can we start the change? Because honestly, it probably will be a huge transformation. Probably.
Clare
Yeah.
Joanna
But you can't do everything at once, but you know, just start by taking on a hard, hard, honest look and think about, okay, where can we start making a change?
Clare
Yeah, good hard look at what are we promising today? Are we delivering against it? What would it take for us to change? Can we change it? And if we can't, should we stop promising it? Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Joanna. It's been wonderful to have this conversation with you today, as always.
Joanna
Yes. Likewise, Clare, absolutely. I loved this conversation, so thank you for the invite.
Clare
You are more than welcome and thank you to everybody who listened or watched along wherever you are. That's it, we'll see you all next time. Bye for now.
Joanna
Bye!
Clare
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology! Well, that’s all for now! See you again next time.
