Clare Muscutt and Ines Martinez debating their thoughts on boys, babies, and the future of CX.
Episode #003 Show Notes.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Hey Innes
Ines Martinez:
Hi!
Clare Muscutt - Host:
How are you doing today?
Ines Martinez:
Very good. How are you?
Clare Muscutt - Host:
I am wonderful. It's Friday. Yay!!! Welcome to the Women in CX Podcast.
Ines Martines:
Thank you so much for having me.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
No problem at all, and welcome to everybody listening along. So since I met you a while back on Instagram, I've really reflected on how we met and how I immediately had this professional 'girl crush' on you as a fellow woman in CX and just knew I had to get to know you. I was thinking back to that first zoom we had right in the middle of lockdown where we had no idea what the future was going to hold, but I just knew I could feel the CX sisterhood with you and knew we were going to be friends. So today I thought we could go for it and have some real real talk about some of the subjects we touched on in that initial conversation. How'd you feel about that?
Ines Martinez:
Love it. Let's do it. Ready to go.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Okay. So I don't know if you remember, it turned out we had loads of things in common. Yeah. One of which being the fact that we've both got a slightly unusual degree. I'm actually qualified in equine studies. Yep, I have a degree in horses! When I was 18, my dream was that I was going to grow up to be a show jumper, All I ever wanted to do was ride horses, run a big yard and probably have four or five kids. So being 30......something now and having a very different life than I expected, I just wondered if you'd be up for sharing what you wanted to be when you grew up, how you got to where you are now at 35 and if this life is was what you thought you wanted?
Ines Martinez:
Okay. Firstly that's such a British thing to want to do horseback riding. That would never cross my mind in a million years! I Love it. I cannot believe you actually considered that as a career. And how amazing that your life took you in a completely different direction!
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Well, it was a bit of a weird one really, because I had a riding accident and I broke my back. So I couldn't ride for years, but during my equestrian days I actually also became a fully trained horse midwife… so I was like right in there in terms of being very serious about this being a career. I'm sure you're imagining the young equestrian Clare now. But tell me about the younger you.
Ines Martinez:
Well I always envisioned a career as a professor and a researcher, I always loved the university environment and I loved science. I majored in psychology. I was sure that I wanted to do research, but after a couple of years of being a research assistant and then trying to get into the whole universe of research I found out it is too difficult. It's so challenging, so competitive it all started to crush my soul a little. I watched my friend, actually my best friend who stuck with it, get her PhD and is now a college professor. She's very successful. I was privileged enough to see her journey but also all the sacrifice that she made to get there. And I was like, no, I am not built for this type of stress. So I had a little bit of a crisis at the moment. But luckily I found UX and I found that within UX, I could do research which is the thing that I love the most. So I kinda like found my way of incorporating the things that I love into a life that suits me better, where I didn't have to make the sacrifices that, that my friend made. So when I was 18, I imagined myself probably in some campus being a full time professor doing research, being in the lab all day, not interacting a lot with people or maybe behind the mirror it's so much better now cause when I do research I see people interacting and discovering the things that we design it's so much better. I wouldn't change. It.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Outside of work what did life look like in your imagination?
Ines Martinez:
I never thought about children really. I never had the urge to become a mother. If you had asked me when I was 18, I would have probably told you I don't want kids. It's not for me. As I got older, especially when my friends started to become mothers and my sister had two kids and I became an aunt. I found out I loved kids. And I do appreciate the wonders of having a family and being a mom. But I'm still not sure if it is for me. And I'm okay either way. I'm not aggressively saying no. But I still feel like, ah, okay, if it doesn't happen, I'm okay if it does, but I'm not something that I'm pursuing like actively
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Actively pursuing. I like that turn of phrase. I guess when I was a kid, I thought that that was what women were supposed to be like. That if you weren't a wife and a mother as an adult, you probably had done something wrong. But as I progressed through my career, I guess I didn't really think about it either. As you said, it just didn't cross my mind. I was too busy climbing a career ladder and having fun to worry about that. I absolutely agree with you. I had no urge to give up my freedom and all of the fun that I have flying around the world, doing whatever I want with whoever I want.
Ines Martinez:
That's the thing it's such a sacrifice. And I admire the women that make it look easy. For example, Lea Turner makes it look like you could totally have the life, the business, the kid and the freedom. I admire her a lot, but I do feel like I'm sure they have moments that are so tough. And when you're so tired and you just wanna, you know, lay on your bed by yourself or give yourself a bubble bath. Being that selfish, is still pretty alluring to me. Yeah.I admire women that give themselves to the job of being a mom but I'm not sure if I'm ready for it, or if I'm ever going to want to do that, I'm not sure. And I'm okay with that.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Yeah. And I agree with you. Both the guests we've had on Episode 001 and 002 were mothers. One's a married mum of two, one was a single mum of two. So this is my first real talk conversation with someone my age, who is in a similar situation to me, being single and child-free. So I guess it makes for an interesting conversation to question why there is so much pressure to have to make a decision. And I guess at this time of our lives now, like I know I became more aware of it because the media or society has conditioned me to think that it's a problem. So for example, I get asked all the time, 'but what are you going to have kids?' And I think it's the rudest question in the world. You should never ask a woman that by the way guys. I think I've landed on at point of thinking. It's not like I actively want children, but I'm starting to think I might have the fear of missing out if I don't, which is definitely not a good enough reason to have kids, but like, what if I don't and then I regret it.
Ines Martinez:
One thing that I almost did at the beginning of the year and then as everything got shut down because of Covid. I went to a doctor to talk about freezing eggs and the procedure, how much it costs, like all the details. And I was actually considering doing that because, what about if I'm 40 and I regret not doing it. You hear lots of women who have done pretty much the same thing that you and I are doing (focussing on our careers) and they turned 40 or 45 or whatever, and they're fine and they never regret it. But you also know the other stories of people who actually put their career first and then had trouble conceiving. And they really felt taken aback by that situation. So I feel like the same way we plan our a career and we plan our finances, I think it's smart. If you can to go that road and plan your fertility and of course it's an investment, and it's not cheap anywhere. I don't think there's a country where it's cheap. But I do think that as women, it's important for us to plan our whole life and to dream big. And if you feel like 5%, maybe down the road, motherhood is going to be important to you... Plan it, you know, don't limit the chance.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
I actually did the same thing last year. I got the fertility test and I had really amazing results. Like, as if it's a test you can pass or something, but they said, you've got a good few years to conceive naturally. You might be okay. But probably within two years time, you need to make a decision. Whether you want to get that as they positioned it "insurance policy"
Ines Martinez:
It's due to biology. You need to be, you need to do it before 37 I think?
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Well, I'm a couple of years older than you. And they still said I was okay. But what it gets into is then having to make a decision, not whether you freeze eggs, but whether you freeze embryos.
Ines Martinez:
No eggs, for sure.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
No, no, but that's what I'm saying. As you get older, the choices diminish because actually freezing and unfreezing older eggs is less likely to be successful. And that to me felt far more frightening as a commitment to create life and freeze it and then maybe unfreeze it at some point. Well, I don't know, I still might do it. Like you say, you know, planning, your fertility. I don't know whether I'd compare it quite to that planning finances, but I get what you're saying, women can do that.
Ines Martinez:
You know what, I heard a comedian. I don't remember who she was, but a comedian once mentioned it in an interview like insurance. It's like, I have insurance for my car. I have insurance for my house. I have insurance for my fertility as well. So when I, when I heard her speaking about in those terms, that's when I started to take it more seriously.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Yeah. I guess that there are always other options. I know a few of my friends who didn't want children who partnered with somebody who had children already and they created blended families is one other option, obviously there is adoption. There are more choices. Yet I still can't imagine in the short term, like right now, do I see at a point in time where, like you said, not getting to pamper myself and have a bubble bath and you're having to look after a small thing that requires my absolute attention a hundred percent of the time. I can't quite imagine that being something that I'm ready to do anytime soon at all, but I suppose that's the wonder of modern medicine that your chances are extended. If you freeze eggs and embryos or whatever to be in your late forties. But I guess then that's another challenge because I'm talking to my friends, who've had kids later. They've said you get more tired as a parent too. But the ironic thing is I've got other friends who had kids. Well, a couple of friends who had kids really young, I mean really young, like 17, 18, and that kids are now going off to uni, their lives are just beginning. They've got these adults that they produced when they were teenagers. It's just, it's just crazy.
Ines Martinez:
I don't think there is ever a perfect time to become a parent. I think it's always going to be challenging. You can plan for pretty much everything and still it's going to be a huge challenge. So I don't, it needs to feel right for you. What I, what I can tell you is, I'm 35 and I'm just feeling like I'm emotionally ready, if that would happen. And again, it's not something that I'm actively pursuing. It's not something that it's on my mind that I worry about, or it's not a goal. It's not like I'm going out on dates saying, Hey, I want to become a mother. So it's not like that at all. But I do feel like, like maybe a year and a half or maybe six months ago, I don't know. It's just, I had this aha moment when I said like, okay, maybe now I'm emotionally ready. If it happens. It's not terrible. Yeah.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
But not the body clock ticking feeling that some people talk about.
Ines Martinez:
No, no, no
Clare Muscutt - Host:
What are your views on being single. Obviously you're single. I'm single, if I decided that that was a course of action, I did want to take,I'd be doing on my own. Would you think you'd want to have someone to do that with or....?
Ines Martinez:
Yeah, could never, I mean, again, I admire women to do that. Become single mothers. I am so old fashion in that sense, I would love to do it. If I, if I'm going to do it, definitely going to do it with a partner. I wouldn't do it by myself. No
Clare Muscutt - Host:
More traditional and stuff. I think I can imagine, and it is going to sound funny, but I can imagine having a kid on my own more than I could imagine having a husband.
Ines Martinez:
That's awesome. That's awesome.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
But yeah, it's just crazy how things turn out over time, this wasn't what I ever expected to be thinking at this point in my life. My life just happened. Like life just came along and I grabbed it by the.... ( I don’t knoe what I grabbed it by). I just went with the career, the adventures, quit my job traveled around the world, became a digital nomad, you know, and I feel like I've lived. I am living… apart from being in lockdown right now, but you're interested in travel too.. Another thing we have in common, a fellow digital nomad also quit your job and packed it all in gave up the corporate side. What was that experience like for you? And do you feel like you made the right choice?
Ines Martinez:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I do feel sometimes when, like, I know the other day some company posted a really cool job and I do feel tempted sometimes to go back. But the freedom it's amazing and yeah, it's definitely the right path for me. Being my own boss and having my team and it creating something with my fellow partners. Yeah, I would never, I would never change it. It was scary. It was very scary at the beginning, but at the same, and it was very frustrating because I, of course I failed a lot. I tried and tried again and went through different business partners and it didn't work and different teams and it did work, different value propositions and it didn't work. And after I think almost four iterations in like five years I got it right. I now I feel like I got it right. And it's so rewarding and I would not change it.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
And that journey to finding the right team, the right people, the right proposition, the right moment in time is not a failure. What happens on the way there. It just makes you more sure about what you want when you find it. You mentioned team. How many guys did you say you work with?
Ines Martinez:
Well, we are 35 at the company right now and I think we are five women. So yeah. We have 30 guys. Yeah.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Thirty guys. Five women. So sometimes I guess you're the only woman at the table
Ines Martinez:
Most of the time. Yeah. Most of the time, because I am the only one because we we have offices, but we let them choose to work remotely or come to the office if they want. We did that even before Covid and yeah. Most people prefer to work from home. So yeah, most of the time I'd be the only one.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Only woman at a physical table or in a zoom window. What is that like, do you ever feel there's a challenge based on your gender in those situations or in the past had, had it been challenging been working in a predominantly male dominated environment?
Ines Martinez:
It has been on the past and that had something to do with finding the right team. But once I've found my guys,once I found the right team, it's never been an issue. I mean, we joke about it. But no, it's never in an issue. I feel so at home, I'm so valued. We care for each other so much. We are family. Yeah. So right now it's not an issue and they protect me a lot. Actually the first person that they hired, even before I joined the company, was a woman. The four founders of the company when they needed to hire someone, their first choice was actually a woman. And she's still with us today. She's an amazing software developer and so they are brilliant allies for women in tech, a hundred percent.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
That's nice. So they are your Amigos?
Ines Martinez:
For sure.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
It's interesting, isn't it? Because career paths can be unusual. Like when I was progressing from riding horses into marketing, traditionally software development technology was much more of a guys route, but I think we are starting to see a shift, female developers, women in tech. There's been a lot of focus in the last few years, especially in Silicon Valley really raising the profile of women in senior leadership roles in technology. But what do you think tis the next challenge for young women coming up through the roots of tech in UX?
Ines Martinez:
I think it's not just women, I think teach has a huge challenge when it comes to diversity as a whole people of colour LGBTQ community. We do know, like we are creating tech that is racist. That is biased in many, many ways. And that's because we don't have enough diversity in the teams that are developing this technology. So, yeah, women are just one of the many, many groups that are being left behind when it comes to technology. And that's why I feel like it's so important to bring everyone to the table. And I do mean everyone.The amazing thing that's happening right now is like, when you think about tech, you usually think about the developer role, but there's so many other roles and you don't need to know how to code, to be part of the conversation with are parts of the tech world. I don't know how to go still, and I'm not planning on learning. But when you have a diverse team of people contributing to the development of tech of a new product, of a new service everything's better. And we are not going to solve the problems that we have right now. And the problems from us and we are bound to have in the near future. If we made that, that shift is the decisions are always made by white dudes.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Yeah. White, old, rich dudes.
Ines Martinez:
Like the other day Elon Musk tweeted something that I really hated because he, he was talking about one of his companies, which is called Neuro link, which basically works on creating integrations with AI and the human body which is actually pretty cool what they're doing. But he tweeted something like our mission statement is if you cannot fight, join them. And I was like, this is bull because you are creating the problem. It's not like you are accepting something that you cannot control. You're doing it yourself, but you are taking this approach. Like, this something that we just need to accept? And that is going to be it. And that it's for me, it's so lazy. And if you, were someone that actually had more struggle, you wouldn't have that position because you cannot afford to have it. And that's why I feel like diversity is so important tech. And since that's something that we totally need to change.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
It's diversity and acknowledgment and recognition of privilege, right, until that is acknowledged that it even exists still in some places, whatever, going to be able to have the momentum behind diversity and inclusion from a hiring perspective, even from an inclusive design perspective. You can create all the toolkits in the world I've personas that represent people, but it's not the same as having the decision makers actually being diverse and including everybody. So I think we kind of touched on the next thing we have in common when you started talking about AI, which is where both massive geeks!
Ines Martinez:
Yay!
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Yay for the girl geeks! Alright. What do you geek out on the most?
Ines Martinez:
Other than Star Wars? I'm also a theatre geek, like last week Hamilton the film was released. I organised a watch party and everything.But when it comes to tech in science fiction, I always feel like science fiction is what is moving us forward. It's like we are watching it in the movies and we want to have it. And so we're going to create it just to have the cool stuff that we saw in Star Wars or star Trek or whatever. But I do feel like our relationship in general, with machines, with robots, with AI, it's going to be such a game changer. Just as we have changed the way of sitting and moving because we have our phones with us all the time. Having a robot in your house and starting to interact on a daily basis. It's going to be such a game changer.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
I agree. And I know we have geeked out on this before, but for me, Alexa is the first step to having a robot in your home, of having actual conversations with AI. It's the first person I speak to in the morning. She does stuff for me. I constantly talk to Alexa. Yeah. That maybe also means I also need to get a Boyfriend thinking back to the start of our conversation. But the only actual interaction I've had with and actual robot was at Seoul airport.. Where I met the cutest robot on the planet. So I'm a robot geek, but I'm definitely more into R2D2 to style of robots. The ones that look sweet. Do you think that that is perhaps a way of making technology in robot form friendlier and therefore less frightening when they're really cute?
Ines Martinez:
Yeah, for sure. And I think Koreans and Japanese, the Chinese cultures are, they are creating robots that are so cute and teaching us. They are taking everything that we know about why we find babies irresistible and why we find puppies irresistible.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
It's the big eyes, right?
Ines Martinez:
Yeah, and they are bringing it into robot design. And I think that's very important because when you are trusting, I don't know, let's say you have a robot that deals with the care of an elderly family member or a child. You don't want it to look like Terminator.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Haha sorry I just visualised Terminator robots around the house.
Ines Martinez:
Yeah. You're not going to trust it to live with your child and with your grandparents. If if it doesn't look like if it doesn't look cute. And, I think that, again, Alexa, Siri, the pitch of their voices. There's so much more that goes into the experience of connecting with a robot, than just the great algorithm that makes it work. And I think that's a field that is very exciting.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
It's the concept of intelligence. I think that's the more frightening thing that machines are learning and they learn at such pace. They can out-think humans, I guess it's the old Sci-Fi fear of what happens if they take over?
Ines Martinez:
Intelligence doesn't doesn't scare me as much as consciousness because intelligence just means that they can do things faster, simpler, better, but that's it, you know, they're still a machine. And when you talk about consciousness, if they knew that they were doing things faster, better simpler, that's the scary thing.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
You've REALLY freaked me out now. I hadn't thought about it as far robots, with consciousness! The intelligence bit scared me enough. I think to finish on those points robotics, robots, chatbots, bots that come and pester you on social media channels, it's clearly accelerating, right? And we're going to have to accept that it's part of the future. I just hope that with the changes that people like you are going to be able to make in taking a more human centred approach to the design of those things, intelligence, technology, and robotics, that actually the future definitely looks more friendly and more like the cute version of the robot. And it will ally people's fears because know, as long as we can continue to keep the human elements at the centre of technology, we are not going to go far wrong. So thank you so much for joining me today. I know that was a really deep chat about what we think about babies and boys and the future. And I really, really value and appreciate the fact that you shared so much with me. So I just wanted to say, I had a girl crush on you from day one, and I think you're absolutely awesome. You are truly inspiring woman indeed. And I'm so glad that you're in the CX sisterhood with me.
Ines Martinez:
Thank you so much, Clare. Of course it feel totally the same about you, from your hair to everything that you have taught me about how to use Instagram. I was so scared when it comes to Instagram and you do it so well. And so, yeah, I feel the same way.
Clare Muscutt - Host:
Long may it continue Thank you again. So all that is left to say is one more thank you to Joakim and our sponsors at Effectly. Thanks again for joining us, Ines.
Listeners, I hope to see you again next week!