‘Does the customer experience community really need Women in CX?’, with Ian Golding
Episode #703 show notes:
Clare:
Happy New Year! Ready to make it the most audacious yet?
Following a wonderfully festive break, we’re feeling recharged, and we’re back with another episode of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast!
A series usually dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in CX, this series we’re putting some of our awesome allies in the hot seat too!
No longer rehashing the same old conversations, in series 7, you can expect us to challenge the status quo on customer experience topics, provocative discourse, and of course, plenty of healthy debate!
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to one of our longest-standing allies, you might recognise him…
He’s a Certified Customer Experience Professional, Global Customer Experience Specialist, and has spent over twenty-five years in business improvement.
To date, he’s supported organisations and professionals in 59 countries to better understand how to ‘operationalise’ the science of CX.
As well as being the Course Director of CX for the Chartered Institute of Marketing, he was the first person in the world authorised to support professionals in achieving their CCXP accreditation.
A renowned keynote speaker and awards host, let me introduce you to today's incredible guest, it is, of course, Mr Ian Golding.
Clare:
Hi, Ian.
Ian:
Hello, Clare.
Clare:
So lovely to have you on the inspiring Women in CX podcast as one of our first allies to appear on this show. So, we're making history. Ian, how do you feel about that?
Ian:
As always, I am honoured, Clare, delighted, as I was, to be one of only two allies at the conference in October, as well. I'm just delighted that I can continue to support what you're doing, and vice versa, as always.
Clare:
Well, we're absolutely gloriously grateful that you're here with us today and for everything that you've been doing for the Women in CX community. And I'm sure we're going to go into lots of more detail about that on the show today. But also, hello, listeners. I hope you're all doing well. I hope you're excited for this episode of the podcast and the fact that we're now introducing even greater gender diversity into women in CX with this podcast episode. So, I thought, Ian, we go back quite a long way, don't we, you and I?
Ian:
We do. To a cafe very near to the British Museum. I think it was.
Clare:
It was.
Ian:
Is that right? It was near the British Museum.
Clare:
It was. It was Pret A Manger, in fact.
Ian:
Was it Pret A Manger? I don't remember the specifics. But then my ageing brain forgets details like that.
Clare:
Yeah. When was it? 2018, I think.
Ian:
Was it really?
Clare:
Yeah. A couple of years. Pre pandemic? Yes. Do you remember why we first met?
Ian:
I can't remember specifically how you contacted me, but I think you'll have to remind me if I'm wrong, but you reached out to me because you were looking to develop your independent company that you created. And you were very bold, I think, because I think it does take courage to reach out to others, to just ask for guidance and advice and various other things. And as you know, if anyone asks me for help, I will do my very best to give them the benefit of my experience. I was going to say wisdom, but I'm not sure it's always wisdom, but my own experiences, to see if I can help you to forge the right path for you. So I think that's how it all started.
Clare:
It was. So, I had recently left Sainsbury's, had made the decision I was going to start my own agency, or actually, initially, just to go solopreneur, freelance. And I so often talk about you on this podcast and within the community, because I reached out to so many people to ask for help. All the CX superstars, the influencers that I'd seen out there, and you were one of the only ones to actually come back and say, yeah, I'd be happy to help you. Interestingly, at the time none of the women I'd reached out to said yes at all, they just thought, interesting. Yeah, incoming competition. No, thanks. But this became one of the reasons why I wanted to start women in CX, because of that experience of having that help from you.
Clare:
That initial time, I was like, we need more women doing this.
Ian:
And at the time, there weren't really that many women, especially not in the UK.
Clare:
The people I'd always reached out to were in the US, admittedly. But definitely, I was breaking into the CX influencer space as one of the only women from the UK.
Ian:
But I find it fascinating that there is, and it's still to this day because I experienced it myself, that word competition. I find it sometimes frustrating, sometimes irritating, that a very small community because CX is a very small global community in relative terms, people see each other as competition. The world is a big place, there's.
Clare:
A lot going on, plenty to go around.
Ian:
To me, I've always lived through collaboration. And so that's why if someone reaches out to me and says, can you guide me? It's like, well, why? Wouldn't know. It just makes sense to be able to give people the benefit of the things you've gone through. And that's why it wouldn't have even crossed my mind not to meet with you, Clare. And as this conversation today demonstrates, I'm so pleased I did, because it was the start of a long, never-ending relationship, as far as I'm concerned.
Clare:
But so true. And that's why collaboration became one of our core values. And I'm so proud to see how many women in the UK are now visible.
Ian:
Yes, that's true. I mean, it has changed remarkably in all forms. Not just independent consultants, but people within different organisations, and different sectors. And actually, I've said to you before that I would say almost exclusively, some of the best people I've ever worked…
Clare:
You have said this to me before!
Ian:
… have been women. The best bosses I've ever had have been women. And whether or not that's coincidental, who knows? But I think, genuinely, when I look back on my career, I have had so much pleasure learning from and working with women as well as men. But as I say, some of the best people I've worked with have been women.
Clare:
Yeah, me too. Why do you think that is, then? I know at the conference we were talking about women typically having more empathy, relationship-building interest, and longer-term viewpoints. Not every woman, obviously.
Ian:
That's right. And I'm not a psychologist or a sociologist or anything like that, but I think typically it is a generalisation. Women do have a greater natural ability to empathise with others. Maybe that's related to motherhood. Now, I know obviously not every woman is, but whether it's an animal. Mum. So obviously your babies are your horses, Clare.
Clare:
Don't forget my cat.
Ian:
But I think women tend to have that natural nurturing instinct that not all men have. You're right to say, obviously, there are lots of women that don't. But I think in general, women do tend to have that naturally within them. I spoke to someone yesterday and said, it's not a new question, but can you teach people to be empathetic or is it something that's within you? And I think for most it's something that's within you. You can educate people as to what empathy is, but caring about other people is. It's not just important for customer experience, it's important in life. And as we can see right now, with the horribly troubled world we live in, so many humans forget about the importance of caring for others. And that's why if we can be involved in communities where there is an overwhelming majority who want to care for others, whether that be supporting them, working with them, or whatever it looks like, then I am 100% behind it.
Ian:
We need to bring humanity back into what we do.
Clare:
Yeah, amen to that. And then our relationship. So obviously I then started my business. My original one, CMXperience, experienced quite a lot of success. Quite quickly started to move, I guess, in the same orbit then, didn't we? Speaking events and being asked to go onto panels together and being keynotes at the same events and stuff, which was super exciting. But then we had the pandemic, didn't we? And I think that's probably when we got closer, wasn't it? Because you basically had a pandemic CX community that you put together for us to support one another. I don't know if you want to reflect a little bit on that?
Ian:
It all feels a bit surreal now when you look back to it. But I think, again, my natural instinct when the pandemic hit was we need to look after each other. Because for many who were operating independently, it was almost like Armageddon. We went from being incredibly busy to suddenly nothing. Everything stopped overnight. Now, obviously, I'd been operating for a long time by then, so to a degree, my network was much bigger than many. Added to the fact that I was always multinational. So, bizarrely, even though we went into a pandemic while certain things stopped for me, other things actually increased.
Ian:
But it was abundantly clear to me that this was not the case for most people. So, I thought it would just make sense to just, let's bring everyone together so people know they're not alone. One of the things you and I talked about on many occasions is how being in the world of CX is often very lonely. Either on the inside of an organisation, because you're trying to change the mindset of people who don't want their mindsets changed, or as an independent, as a solopreneur. The clue is in the name. You're solo. It's just sudden to go from lots of stuff to nothing. People needed to know they weren't alone.
Ian:
So, we actually started a community that we ended up calling CX Cares. Yeah, it was truly international. We had people from Brazil, Russia and the Far East, all over the place. And once a week, to start with, we would meet in a call and just support each other.
Clare:
That new-fangled Zoom thing that we were just learning how to use.
Ian:
The time, that always made me laugh. If the media said this new Zoom thing that we'd been using for years.
Clare:
It felt new to me. I definitely didn't used to have meetings on Zoom. It was always in person or on the phone.
Ian:
… but I don't know, that time was so important, I think, to just ensure that people knew they weren't alone and that we could support each other. And if we could find a way of generating income for each other, then that's what we would do. Obviously, for some, that was much harder than others. And I'm sure you don't mind me saying that for you, it was tough, it was a really tough period.
Clare:
I'd been out less than two years, and everything was going brilliantly. But where I'd chosen to build my business was all on the other side of the world, because I liked travelling as a digital nomad. So, my clients were in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. Yeah. And everything that I did was in person. Workshops and keynotes depended very much on me being physically present.
Ian:
That's right.
Clare:
And it just dried up overnight, and I had nothing. I went from everything to nothing. A year's plan.
Ian:
And it was bizarre. And I think that's why…
Clare:
I was definitely one of the people that you set that up for, for sure.
Ian:
Well, I wanted to do what I could, and if I could have given money to people, I would have done, but we had to try and find a way of keeping ourselves motivated to keep going. And this, for me, is what makes our global CX community, whatever gender we tend to be. I think the community is so important because there are many people like us who want to support and help each other. There are equally as many who don't. But I think the relationships we developed during 2010 and 2021, those relationships last forever. And I think it was such a powerful time, and I'm delighted that we were able to keep people going, however hard it may have been at the time.
Clare:
Yeah, I would just come with my little updates, wouldn't I, over those calls and had this idea. I think I'm going to start a podcast. I think I'm going to call it Women in CX. I've got nothing else to do. I think I'm going to try and amplify the voices of women.
Ian:
Isn't it funny to think that Women in CX didn't exist?
Clare:
Didn't exist at the beginning of all that it didn't. And I'd come and give my little updates each week, and each week it'd be something more. And by the end it was like, right, I'm going to be launching a membership community. But yeah.
Ian:
It's now coming back. All of the stuff that disappeared, the fact that you're now starting the consulting piece for Women in CX, it is brilliant that it never went away. I think that's what we almost need to tell ourselves. We think it's gone, but it's just evolved. And sometimes you need someone that you can rant at, someone that will just listen, that gives you that strength to find a way of moving forward. And if I was just a tiny bit of that for you, Clare, then I’m delighted.
Clare:
You were a big bit of that, because you also would meet with me, just one to one, and let me talk about the reality of what I was experiencing. So, I was living by myself, wasn't I, as well. I wasn't around anybody and we'd have offline catch-ups as well. But I think I know we talk a lot about safe space community, don't we? And that Women in CX definitely stands for that. And I definitely got to experience that through you and your support, and I'm just so proud that I managed to create an international community that does that. And its exact focus is on kindness and support.
Ian:
It's funny.
Clare:
… definitely inspired me.
Ian:
Well, in business, I think whether it's public sector or private sector, that feeling of being safe, having a safe space, I think many employees don't have that. Many people don't feel that they're in an environment like that, that they've got people that they can reach out to and talk to like we did. And for me, that's a problem. And so the fact that you're creating, you've created a new community that is underpinned by that, that people can come together and talk about anything. They can genuinely wear their heart on their sleeve and not be judged, but actually, be guided and supported is wonderful because the world is only going to get more complex and more difficult. And so I think what you are driving and continuing to evolve becomes ever more important going forward.
Clare:
That's so kind of you to say and thank you.
Sponsor Message:
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We are proud to be supported by Kantar, the world's leading evidence-based insight and consulting company. Kantar CX helps clients define customer and employee experience strategies, better understand their customers via measurement and in turn improve business outcomes, driving true commercial ROI.
To find out more about Kantar's CX practice, please visit the sponsor links on the homepage of womenincx.community. Now back to the episode.
Clare:
I suppose it’s maybe a bit of a cheeky question, but I know you're involved in every single CX community that exists. Is there anything that particularly stands out for Women in CX that's different?
Ian:
I know of most communities, so I'm not actively involved in all of them, but I know of most of them. And my view on all of these global communities is that they need to exist for the right reason. So, the motivation behind them is important. Everyone knows that I have been involved with the CXPA from the very beginning. The reason why I was involved with the CXPA is because it was a not-for-profit association representing people like us who do what we do. And for me, that was a no-brainer. It wasn't commercially generating. Its motivation was all about us.
Ian:
Now, do I think that that organisation is doing a good job is a different matter? Because is it still representing people like us? I'm not so sure. There are other organisations around the world who I am not completely convinced that their motivation is about people like us. I think their motivation fundamentally is about making money. It's not about doing the right thing for its members. And that bothers me because we need somewhere that we can get the right support, the right exposure, the right level of visibility for what we do. Because customer experience, employee experience, the human experience, is still so vague for many organisations there is still a huge amount more that needs to be done that we can't do as individuals. We need the backing of things with credibility. So right now, I think the legacy organisations, if I can call them that, because they're still not that old, I think they are missing what needs to happen.
Ian:
I don't think they are doing a great job of it. Women in CX being the new kid on the block, so to speak. There are newer organisations now, but still a relatively new kid on the block. I think your motivation is very clear for people to see. However, I think there is still, unfortunately, a misunderstanding as to what women in CX is all about.
Clare:
Tell me more!
Ian:
Again, you and I, well, in the spirit of ours. You mentioned my brutal and honest conversations, which are not. It's not a podcast.
Ian:
What I wanted was to have conversations like this with you that others could listen to. And let's stop prancing around this subject. Let's just say it as it is. And a lot of people have said to me, not on those conversations, but outside, what do you need women in CX for? Why do they need that now? 99 times out of 100, it's a man that says that. I just have to be very clear. And I've always found it difficult to respond. What's the right response to that question, if I'm being totally honest with you? How do I answer that? And actually, I needed to immerse myself into the conference in October to be able to answer the question, because I'm not a woman. Okay, quite clearly, just getting it out there, I'm not a woman.
Ian:
So, can I claim to know what it's like to be a woman in CX? No, I don't know. Do I know what it's like to be a woman in business? No. I know what it's like to be a white, heterosexual man in business, which in the UK means that most of the time it's relatively okay for someone like me. Now, I don't overthink it. I don't necessarily stop and reflect. I'm lucky to be a white heterosexual man. But I am now immersing myself in that room in London a few weeks ago. It was very eye-opening for me because I said to you before we did this call that I didn't see a room of women.
Ian:
Now, I didn't mean that to be a derogatory comment, but I just saw a room of people. Because ironically, when I look at someone, I don't see colour, gender, or religion. We're just all people. Now, some might call me naive in saying that, but we are just all people. But I was in a room full of women, and I was, for only a short part of the day, one of only two men in a room full of women. And what became abundantly clear to me as the day went on is how refreshing it was. And I use the word refreshing intentionally, to see a group of people who just happen to be women, talking so openly and honestly, really exposing vulnerability, almost honestly, to the point that I started to ask myself, would I be in an environment with so much natural authenticity if that room was mixed gender? And I never thought I would think that because I didn't have any preconceived view of how I would feel about it. But I saw a room full of people who felt safe to say what they wanted to say without any fear of judgment or any sense that people would ridicule them or look at them with a funny expression on their face.
Ian:
And it made me realise that actually, for people to have an environment where they feel able to be themselves is critical. And I maybe had never really appreciated that. Maybe women in business, women in organisations, can't always truly be themselves. I don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense to you, but this is just sort of what was going through my mind.
Clare:
It does. And that's your perspective on the world, right? And how you experienced what it was like to be in a room full of women. And in your experience, it didn't mean that you saw gender or colour or anything else. But I guess not to challenge you personally, because I know your intentions are nothing but pure. But it tends to be People who are white, men, who are straight, who are nondisabled, who don't see colour, don't see gender, don't see because you don't have to. Whereas if you are non-white, non-male, non-binary with different, you do see it.
Ian:
It's a brilliant point.
Clare:
When I stand in a room as a woman in a room full of men, I can tell you I feel very uncomfortable. And I know when there's only a few women around, and I got used to that working in business or as a speaker or when I go to these big technology events, but it still feels uncomfortable. And I love that you were able to stand in a room full of women and feel completely comfortable. Yes, but the reality is, for many of us, when we're the odd one out, and obviously I'm a white woman, I don't have as many of the biases as my sisters in Women in CX who are more diverse. When you don't experience it directly, you don't know.
Ian:
You're absolutely right. That point about I don't look for it. I don't know if those are the exact words you use, but you're right. If I'd have been in, I don't know, a disabled people's conference, everyone in the room was in wheelchairs. Again, unless you're in an environment like that, it comes back to this point about empathy. You see, I like to think I'm empathetic, but I think I am to a degree. But unless you, as many customer experience professionals will say, put yourself in those people's shoes and see it through their eyes, can you truly understand what it feels like to be?
Clare:
And I personally don't think so. So I challenge empathy as a concept, even in customer service and customer experience. I think it's a laudable target to aim for. But I think compassion is a way better definition than empathy. Because I cannot know what it feels like to be you. I cannot know what it feels like to be a man walking around in this world as a male. Sounds like it'd be really fun. But hey, I will never get to know what that feels like for I don't know.
Clare:
I never know what it feels like to walk around this ground. I cannot empathise with that. But I can have Compassion and see, yes. And appreciate what someone else is going through. That's different to me, I agree with.
Ian:
You, you see, because part of the… All people have vulnerabilities in some way. I mean, people find it hard to believe that I am a massive introvert, but I am. And actually, I find conferences really difficult because I have to talk to people and a lot of people. What do you mean? That's what you do all the time. But actually, it's unnatural for me, being on a stage is Ian acting, but when I come off the stage, I want to hide in a corner and not have anyone talk to me. Now, some people look at me as like, what do you mean? That's just weird. No, it isn't. Unless you understand what it's like to feel that way, you can't understand it.
Ian:
I'll be very transparent with you on this podcast because, you know, it's the only way I can be. I have Asperger's.
Clare:
Do you? Thank you for sharing that.
Ian:
Does it matter? No. Is it a label? To a degree, yes, it is. But that's why it explains a lot about why I do what I do and how I do what I do because I just have to just focus on doing what makes me feel okay. And there are so many things that make me feel very uncomfortable. And that's maybe why being in that room a few weeks ago, I felt completely comfortable because I was actually as close to being like that community as I could be. Because I was in a room with people who I knew weren't going to judge me, weren't going to look at what I was wearing or think, is he an alpha male? Or people weren't looking at me like that. And so that's probably why I felt very relaxed in that environment. But this, again, is why I think I completely agree with you.
Ian:
Compassion is where we need to get to, but it's why it's so critical. But unfortunately, it is so lacking in so many parts of our lives, whether it's business or outside.
Clare:
Yeah. And I guess the example you started this conversation with of so many guys that get their knickers in a twist about Women in CX, even existing and questioning why it needs to be here without having any understanding of what it's like to live and work as a woman in business, just to automatically write it off. Because I know there's one guy that goes around saying that we defy the objective of our community by being a gendered community, by not including men in a women's safe space. That means, therefore, that we're being sexist. And I think that's just ridiculous. And I will happily defend why safe spaces for women only are needed.
Ian:
It's a blatant lack of understanding, but we'll always have that. We will always live in a world where people will judge others. But that, I think, contradicts that person's argument and it makes your community even more important.
Clare:
Yeah, but I think it just is the example of why communities like this do need to exist because of that complete lack of understanding.
Ian:
That's right.
Clare:
Of other people's experience and providing psychological safety where women experience sexism and gender-related violence. Like, not necessarily saying we talk about that kind of thing all the time in the community, but within sexism is in sexual harassment, and assault. These things don't typically happen to guys in the workplace the way. I'm not saying that they don't, and the societal conditioning that women experience because of our gender. So, we've got to be pretty and likeable and smile all the time and everyone has to think you're this wonderful goddess, or you're. And you have to be like, look this certain way and act this certain way. And women's power is not the same as male power. Right.
Clare:
In how we're evaluated for our worth. So, we have to work that much harder. And even the ones of us with pretty privilege, that can be a negative because then you're assumed because you're successful, because of the way you look, not because of who you are. And if you don't have those looks, it's going to be even harder for you to become successful. It doesn't happen to guys. And I can't wait for the day when women's communities are not needed because that means that we'll live in a world where this sh*t does not happen, and we will have reached equality. And I cannot wait for that day when we don't need women's organisations.
Ian:
I don't think it's ever going to happen.
Clare:
We're a very long way off. But you know what, I really appreciate you having that conversation with me that I don't think many men would dare to.
Message from WiCX Founder & CEO, Clare:
Sorry to interrupt your listening, but I just wanted to take a break to tell you a little bit more about WiCX. We’re the world’s first online membership community for women in Customer Experience, our mission is clear, and that’s to unleash the power of women to lead the future of human-centred business.
Working in CX can feel lonely at times. We’re often singlehandedly trying to change the way that organisations think and behave about customers.
On our paid platform, discover a vibrant tribe of female professionals, find support from knowledgeable peers, learn best practices from experts and practitioners, and be inspired to up your game through leading-edge CX/EX thinking.
If you feel like you aren’t making enough progress with your CX objectives, are unsure what your next move looks like or are struggling to achieve your career ambitions, you’re not alone.
To learn more about membership, see how women are progressing personally and professionally with the support of the #1 community in CX, and apply to join us today, visit www.womenincx.community/membership.
I really hope I get to see you there soon!
Clare:
I think our relationship again, but that's because they worry are they going to say the wrong thing? And that's not because they're coming from a bad place, but the fear around talking about sexism, racism, or anything like that. A lot of the reasons why the conversations don't happen is because people are scared.
Ian:
Do you know what part of the problem is when you just think of global politics right now? Let's not get into a political conversation, but that the world has become so divisive. So, it's either you're on one side or the other. Everything is an argument, but actually why? We can all have different perspectives and different opinions, but it's about healthy conversation and healthy debate and seeing other people's perspectives. It's one of the things that defines customer experience as a discipline, that there's no right or wrong, there's just interpretation. There's an interpretation of a scenario, and you need to understand that scenario, to understand how best to deal with it. And I think we need to try and find a way of becoming less hostile as a global community in business and outside of business, and just start working together to solve problems, not to create them. I know it's a bit of a nirvana statement, but that's what I would love the world to become.
Clare:
Yeah. And I'm a pragmatist, so I guess my reality, I need to present reality as it is, is more of a powerful drive for me. Think about how do we move from where we are today necessarily than how do we get? But for me, my experience of the CX industry is that it is highly political. And that the ultimate issue, I think, is that people can't hold two ideas in their mind at the same time, that two things can be true, that it's not either or, it's not black or white. There's this grey area that you can still find answers in. The least successful CX professionals I encounter are the ones that are fighting against organisations for something they see as the answer.
Ian:
Yes.
Clare:
And trying to force fit what they've learned as a framework into an organisation that's either not ready for it, can't see the value of it, he's never going to buy into it, and then they end up as individuals feeling like they're failures. That's not their fault, right. But by believing that there is only one way to do things, or that CX is this thing we have to get people to understand rather than going, I've got a skill set here that can help release more value for people to match this organisation’s goals. How do I do that? And for me, that is the shift that we need to see in the world.
Ian:
I've said for years, customer experience is a science, but it's not an exact science. And it's our ability to interpret how to apply it to whatever situation we face is the real skill set of what we do.
Clare:
Yeah. So, for example, in 2024, you heard this at the conference, but we're going to be launching Practical Magic courses for women, and it's not going to be a CX course that already exists. We're focusing on how do you build confidence and resilience. How do you understand and navigate environments that can quite often be hostile in the workspace? How do you develop your impact and influencing skills to be able to convey information? Actually, how do you become a better project manager so you can show that there's a business case? How do you show, rather than this utopian vision for customer experience that might take five years to get to? How do we also go, “And in year one, here's where we're going to focus”, and this is the value that we can demonstrate rather than it being like one thing or the other.
Ian:
I think it's brilliant to do something about this because what you're describing are the historically unwritten sculpt competencies of this discipline.
Clare:
I know!
Ian:
You can't do it without those things, but unfortunately, a lot of those things come under the banner of soft skills, which is such an awful expression because they are anything but. Our ability to influence, our ability to build lead, I'd say awareness and confidence. I've said to you for a long time that courage, persistence, sheer bloody mindedness we need to have that in spades.
Clare:
But also, commercial awareness, financial acumen, all the bits that aren't part of these competencies as they're seeing today. And wow, way of spilling the tea, being super honest. What really worries me is this obsession with data metrics and ROI having become the uber competency and the place where most CX investment is now made.
Ian:
But there's a connection between what you are introducing and why ROI is the thing that everyone focuses on.
Clare:
Hang on a second, sorry, just to check that I'm not questioning whether ROI is important. It's everything. But not the ROI of customer experience is a thing in its own lane.
Ian:
No, I agree.
Clare:
That's the thing that everyone's trying to prove.
Ian:
Very few people working within the world of CX, whether they be practitioners or people just with some kind of responsibility in CX, I think in general have done an extremely bad job of explaining, influencing, guiding leadership teams to understand what the outcome needs to be. So, I think that the typical default for a business leader is show me the money. And so we're just blindly trying to show them a number that we're not quite sure where the number is coming from. What we have not done a brilliant job at is really articulating to leaders how you get to those numbers and where that benefit truly comes from, how long it takes to get there, what needs to happen for us to sustain the focus on it. We haven't taken them on that journey, typically, and so many leaders come to the conclusion that this doesn't work. Well, it does work, but I think that lack of cohesive influencing driven by authority that it's just not happening in general.
Clare:
I have a different viewpoint. I don't disagree with what you said. However, I think measurement frameworks like NPS have become a replacement for customer experience and ROI is being promised to be attached to things like net promoter score, which is unfounded. So, I think there is a lot of blame is the wrong word, but fault in survey-based customer experience programs being sold as a panacea to revenue because they're not. The important thing to me, in my career in business, is actually taking action and improving things for customers or delivering more value for humans. And that's where the biggest commercial return is. But you're not going to see that as an outcome metric in NPS. You're going to see that in research and understanding, what needs to change stakeholder engagement and being able to link. Okay, how do we understand the business strategy?
Clare:
Okay, we're just phrasing it in different ways.
Clare:
But it doesn't have to be in five years time. It can be now.
Ian:
No, but you're bringing up, quite rightly, a very specific cause of the problem. But those working in CX need to have the confidence, the courage to explain why we shouldn't be using NPS in that way, rather than just blindly carry on doing it. I had a conversation with a client that I've worked with for a few years yesterday who's had a big restructure and change of leadership. And this new guy that's come in said, why every year do we run the same NPS survey? And he's right. Because it's wrong. What they're doing is fundamentally wrong. But you've got to have that strength and that courage of your convictions to stand up to leadership, not because you're being arrogant or aggressive, but because you understand what is required to become sustainably customer-centric and deliver value for the customer, for the employee, for the organisation. And if that means actually telling the organisation that what we're doing isn't going to achieve that, that's what you've got to have the courage to be able to do. But I don't see enough practitioners who are prepared to do that.
Clare:
Do you think, Ian, that customer experience in its current state, as in what we define it to be now, is on the road to extinction? Because really what we're talking about the value being in the future is human experience, right? You've said that word so many times now, not saying it's about changing the term. Has it become so myopic?
Ian:
I'm asked the question a lot and my answer will always be no, it will never go extinct in my…
Clare:
I don't have to change my T-shirt then? You don't have to change your sign in the background.
Ian:
The simple principle is if you just focus on customer experience for a second, customer experience has always existed. It always will exist. Okay, that is just a reality.
Clare:
Yeah, I agree. Having experiences…
Ian:
Employee experience has always existed, it always will do. It's less about CX becoming extinct and more about the way we adopt an approach to CX evolving. So, we can't just focus on CX alone going forward. What we've got to understand is the harmonisation of how the customer experience and employee experience come together to deliver the value that the organisation, its customers, its employees, and its shareholders need. I think for so long, and to a degree still to this day, all organisations really care about is the shareholder. If we're being blunt, do they really care about the customer, the majority still don't. It's about financial return. Do they care about the employee? The majority don't really care about the employee.
Ian:
They want to know how much money are we going to make for us to be able to sustain organisations in the future. Just focusing on shareholder return in the short term for me is not a sustainable strategy anymore. In a world where we are seeing more and more disruption, where technology is evolving faster than ever before and will only get faster and faster and faster, we cannot just chase numbers blindly in the short term. We have got to understand how we can sustain an organisation in the long term, because that's where the real value will come from. And the only way we can deliver that is by truly understanding where the value comes from itself. And that value is not just from the product or service that an organisation sells. It comes from the ecosystem that it is sold within, an ecosystem that makes up the experience that the customer has in buying it, in using it, in rebuying it, as well as the ecosystem of people who design, how they interact with the product and service, whether that be through a human directly or through technology. So, what we do will never become extinct. I will argue it will become ever more important. But we've got to become more sophisticated in piecing the pieces of the puzzle together.
Clare:
I'm making notes here because I have so much to say in response to this. This podcast is going to be like 4 hours long. So, I think we're going to have to agree to do a part two. Okay. I think for me, the extinction isn't going to be of customer experience, as in customers and employees and humans will continue to have experiences. I agree with that. But I think what's going to become extinct is this framework's approach to the competencies, as we've discussed today.
Ian:
So, tell me why.
Clare:
Pardon?
Ian:
Tell me why you think that.
Clare:
Why? Because I think it's become so outdated because of the way businesses and customers and technology now operate. And the times have changed so much that those competencies aren't enough. For example, it means you have to become a customer-centric organisation for it to even work right? And the reality is there are product-centric organisations that can be market-oriented and still do an absolutely amazing job and deliver great experiences, but they're never going to become customer-centric because that's not the nature of them. Becoming more market-oriented is better than customer-centric for many. And that journey that I feel people coming into this industry or learning about it think that the end goal is to turn a company customer-centric. And if you don't achieve that, then you’ve failed. And quite often, they might be the only person trying to change culture and do all of this stuff, which is unrealistic when the technological aspect, for example, there's no competency around that, is there? Experience design is a really small percentage, but actually, that's the capability organisations need the most.
Ian:
I think what's important is…
Clare:
And it’s not either or, otherwise I'll be breaking my own…
Ian:
No, I'm not suggesting that you are saying this, but I think unfortunately, we need to distinguish the difference between having structure and how granular our understanding of that structure needs to be. Right now, there are competencies that have been defined by the CXPA, but there are also competencies that have been defined by Forrester, that have been defined by Bain, that have been defined by a number of different organisations, that the articulation in most cases is slightly different, but they're broadly along the same lines, but there are differences between them all. The problem comes back to what I said about customer experience not being an exact science. And it's one of the reasons why I am a massive advocate of simplicity in the way that we think about this. Too many are radically overcomplicating their approach to customers.
Clare:
That's being political again, isn't it? The radical, like the right-wing CXers, left-wing CXers…
Ian:
It’s too complex, and the thing is, you cannot overcomplicate this, because, as you rightly say, every organisation is different, every industry is different, every geography is different, and so what different parts of the world, different markets, and different sectors, focus on will depend. And because it depends, I think for us as practitioners, whether it be in the human experience, customer experience, employee experience, whatever you want to say, call it our strength is in interpreting what is the right thing to do for that organization in the situation that it's in to enable it to deliver value. And if that value will come from being customer-centric, because it has to be, and it has to be because differentiation in that market being differentiating on the product or service isn't going to be enough, it has to be on the whole experience, then that is right for that situation. If it's a scenario where actually it's a very limited marketplace and you've got a very innovative product, that actually you can differentiate on that, then again, you do what's right for that situation. But I agree with you, there is no one size fits all. There can't be. And that's why the best practitioners are the ones that can adapt to each situation as they see it.
Clare:
Yeah, I know Adrian Swinscoe, his metaphor always sticks out to me. It's like picking up this CX hammer and thinking everything's a nail.
Ian:
It's one of the reasons my framework is so ridiculously simple, because it has to be. Because if you make anything more complicated than that, it becomes the hammer and nail and it is not.
Clare:
Unfortunately, we've run out of time, and we didn't even get through half the questions. But I've really enjoyed this debate.
Ian:
Should we agree to do part two?
Clare:
Yeah, because now I'm feeling all inspired and thinking about the WiCX Practical Magic course and actually competencies. Why can't we have our own competencies? And I honestly get so frustrated. The last thing I'll say on the kind of CX community, and this is probably like broader LinkedIn space, is I get sick of people that are just complacent complaining about, oh, this guy over here or this group over here, or it's this fault, or it's that fault. I definitely don't want to participate in that. Obviously, this safe space has been great to be able to share some of my points of view and opinions. The important thing is, if you don't like it, go and find your own… work on something and share it back with the world.
Clare:
If there's a better way, rather than just moaning about it or pointing fingers at people.
Ian:
The thing is, Clare, I would say.
Clare:
I'm going to come up with a better way.
Ian:
My final thought to you is that I think part of the problem is thinking about this as competencies. I think it would be fascinating to know what the Women in CX model was.
Clare:
We're not saying CX competencies, though. Are we saying WiCX competencies? What is the capability approach? I'm going to come up with it, and I'm going to come and share it back with you in this part, too. But as this is the end of 2023 and the show will be airing in December, my final question is, what's one prediction then that you have for 2024 and we can come back in 2024 and continue this very healthy debate?
Ian:
I will give you a prediction, and I'm going to finish with a quote if that's okay. My prediction is that we will become even more obsessed with technology. Unfortunately, not always for the right reason. So, the AI bandwagon is slowing down. It is going to speed up and I think we're going to have to work even harder to ensure it's not being used for the wrong reason. That is my prediction for 2024. So, actually, our community is going to have to manage that very openly to ensure it doesn't damage experiences. So that is a prediction for 2024.
Ian:
To give you a closing quote, which I said I would do, because I think it wraps all of this quite nicely. The other prediction I have for 2024 is it's not the first time I've said this, but because of everything that's going on in the world, I think the greater the ability for people and organisations to demonstrate that people can trust them, the better, I think. We have lost so much trust over the last few years in the UK alone. We've had Brexit, we've had the pandemic, we've got a global cost of living crisis. All of those things have almost eroded trust completely. And that has a knock-on effect to every organisation that you interact with. Who do we know? Can we believe the organisation? Can we believe the media? I think it's almost gone, and we've got to find a way of bringing it back. I had a brilliant conversation with a lady yesterday, who I will connect you with, Clare, because she'll be a brilliant addition to the WiCX community, who said to me that the most important thing for her in 2024 is authenticity.
Ian:
And this is authenticity in individuals, but also in entire organisations. And the quote, so it's not mine. This is a quote from a brilliant lady called Sylvia Baraldo. She said, “Authenticity is the currency of trust in any relationship.” And I love that quote. And I think we need to do what we can to demonstrate what authenticity really is. You know that. That's what I try to do.
Ian:
I know that's what you try to do.
Clare:
It’s one of our core values at Women in CX.
Ian:
The more your community and others demonstrate authenticity in practice, the more we can influence others to do the same.
Clare:
Love that. What a great note to end on. So, we talked about so much. I really enjoyed having the safe space to be able to intellectually challenge one another around some of these thoughts. It's been really fun. I can't wait for the next instalment! And, yeah, I think demonstrating what it's like to be in a psychologically safe space to talk about those kinds of things, it was a joy. So, thank you, Ian, for joining us on the Inspiring Women in CX podcast.
Ian:
Always a pleasure, Clare. Thank you for having me.
Clare:
Thank you to everyone who listened, wherever you are, we'll be back for part two soon. See you next time. Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt.
If you enjoyed the episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology!
Well, that’s all for now! Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to the incredibly inspiring Andreena Leeanne, a Lived Experience Speaker, about why empathy might not be the answer we’re looking for, recognising our own privilege, and the concept of intersectionality. See you all very soon!
