‘If empathy isn’t the answer, what is?’, with Andreena Leeanne
TW: Please note, this incredibly courageous episode contains discussions of abuse and childhood trauma, as such, listener discretion is advised.
Episode #704 show notes:
Clare:
We’re back with another episode of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast!
A series usually dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience and technology, this series we’re putting some of our awesome allies in the hot seat too!
No longer rehashing the same old conversations, in series 7, you can expect us to challenge the status quo on CX topics, provocative discourse, and naturally, plenty of healthy debate!
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to one seriously inspiring lady from right here in the UK.
She’s a Lived Experience Speaker, Wellbeing Workshop Facilitator and Poet who helps organisations with their inclusion and wellbeing strategy by speaking about intersectionality, authenticity, and allyship.
Recognised as one of Stonewall’s Black History Month role models in 2018 and shortlisted for a Positive LGBT Role Model National Diversity Award in 2020, let me introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, Andreena Leeanne.
Clare:
Hi, Andreena.
Andreena:
Hi, how are you?
Clare:
Hello, how are you today?
Andreena:
I'm doing very well, thank you. I'm in a very upbeat mood.
Clare:
That's perfect for a podcast. So, welcome. It's great to have you here and welcome to all the listeners, wherever you are listening or watching in the world. So, we're going to dive straight in here and ask the same question that I asked to all of our guests that come onto the podcast, and that is how exactly did you find your way to working with the Women in CX community?
Andreena:
Yeah, that's such an interesting journey for me, Women in CX. Yeah. So, we're probably going to talk about my self-employment journey. But as part of my self-employment journey, I spend a lot of time networking. So, I find networking events on Eventbrite. I search Eventbrite looking for different networking opportunities. And I came across… there was a Women in CX networking event, and it looked really interesting.
Clare:
Oh, yeah. International Women's Day, wasn't it?
Andreena:
International Women's Day. So, I turned up to this place. It was really nice. Everyone was really welcoming and got a name badge. I remember the name badge had like a ribbon. Ribbon, yeah, it was really nice. It was just such a welcoming space. And I met you, you're so friendly as well. And I was there listening and taking part and all of that.
Andreena:
And I remember saying to somebody in the break, I was like, can you just quickly tell me what does CX stand for? What does CX stand for? And they said, customer experience. And I was like, oh yeah, great, this is fantastic. So, the penny dropped us to where I am, what I'm doing, who I'm networking with, and this wonderful community that you've created. And I remember there was also a presentation on diversity and inclusion.
Clare:
Yeah, with Nadach.
Andreena:
And then I just thought, this is so interesting. So, I just really settled in because I'm so random like that I focus on the goal, isn't it? So, my goal was to go to somewhere that looks interesting, to network with people, to meet new people, and then these people might connect me to other people. That might result in something that's the kind of, like, method to my madness. So, I didn't really dig too deep about examining what Women in CX is before I actually went.
Clare:
Took a chance.
Andreena:
Took a chance. It looked interesting. And look at where we are today. We've been on a journey together since March, so everything works out for a reason and people connect with each other. I found that if I'm on this journey of helping people and serving the community and being present and all of that, I'm finding that I'm meeting those types of people everywhere I go. So, whether it's Women in CX or whether it's women in tech or women of interbank, all of these networking opportunities that I've found that I've gone to, because the thing is, when I talk about diversity and inclusion, it's very like, across all sectors, isn't it? Wherever, I turn up to a networking event for lawyers, we still need to talk about diversity and inclusion. So that's why I wasn't so hung up on finding out what CX is until I actually got there.
Clare:
I think that's so true, isn't it? And then you and I got to hang out afterwards because you said, “Hey, let's have a zoom”. After we chatted briefly at the networking, you told me about what you do, and I thought, oh, I think the community would really love to hear more from you. And you ended up doing that awesome webinar talking about intersectionality, didn't you? Do you want to tell the listeners a little bit more about what intersectionality is and what the webinar discussed for the workshop?
Andreena:
Yeah. So, intersectionality is a term that was coined by a law professor in America called Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989. Fantastic black woman, Kimberlé Crenshaw. And she explains intersectionality as the interconnected nature of one's identity. So, one person can have various intersections to their identity. So, for me, I'm black. That's my race. I'm a woman, that's my gender. I'm a lesbian, that's my sexuality. I'm 42, that's my age. I'm working class. I've got a mental health condition. So, all of these intersections of my identity are part of who I am. And when we look at intersectionality, so I would experience homophobia differently to a white lesbian because of my race. I would experience racism differently to a black man because of my gender. And the way that I talk about this intersectionality conversation within the workplace is just to let people know that people are just not one-dimensional.
Andreena:
We all have multiple intersections to our identities, and if we can create environments at work where people feel like they belong and they feel welcome and they feel appreciated and celebrated and stuff, then they're more likely to show all parts of the intersections of their identity in the workplace. Because some of the intersections that I've even mentioned about myself, some of them are more visible than others. So, I'm out as a lesbian now, and I have been this way for quite some time, but there were times within the workplace when I wasn't out. I didn't want people to know about my sexuality or sexual orientation or whatever, and I would avoid those questions where I would out myself at work and stuff like that. So, it was really challenging. So now that I'm fully my authentic self and I show all of the intersections of my identity, I know how impactful that has been to me. So, when I go around to all these organizations, mainly corporate ones, talking to all of their staff on a lunch and learn or a fireside chat, that kind of thing, showing my presentation, I talk about intersectionality from a lived experience perspective. So, my own lived experience, I don't claim to be a diversity and inclusion expert or anything.
Andreena:
I'm an expert by my own experience. So, when I go to all of these networking events and stuff, I go as myself. I bring all my intersections and yeah, so far, so good.
Clare:
I love that journey, and I just remember that light. I think authenticity comes with a light around somebody in an energetic sense, and I was just like, I feel this from you, and I want to know more.
Clare:
So, yeah, I think standing in your own authentic presentation of all of your intersectional identities, it definitely was something that made me want to hear more. And I'm sure we'll talk more about how our listeners can embrace their full selves too. But I think the word intersectionality for me is super important for Women in CX or women's communities or gendered communities that I'm an intersectional feminist. I think that we have a role to play to ensure that there are different kinds of feminism that can actually be quite toxic, aren't there? I don't know if you've experienced that, but I know kind of like that white woman sorority-style communities exist where women empower, collect together, and it isn't embracing women who don't represent exactly what they're like. And I was just really determined with Women in CX that it was going to be a space where women could embrace their full identities as women, but also that others would be open to embracing others in their full authenticity too. I don't know if you have any thoughts on intersectional feminism or different kinds of feminism or how DEI…?
Andreena:
I don't know. All that just sounded like another language to me, to be fair.
Clare:
Oh, gosh, I didn't mean to do that.
Andreena:
I don't know. No, I hear you because… I hear you because there are… you see me, I talk about inclusion in all aspects. Doesn't matter where you're from. We can all have different opinions and lived experiences, and all get along and all work together to create a kind of inclusive world. So, all of these different types of feminism and different types of… shouldn't we just all be going towards the same goal without having all of this separation and all of this division?
Clare:
I think that's why intersectional feminism was the most interesting one for me because it was the most inclusive version. I think we're talking about wanting the same thing. Maybe I just labelled… yeah, used the word feminism in there. Because I suppose gender is one identity, isn't it? Right, and I suppose as a woman, my own recognition that I'm a white, straight presenting woman who has not got the lived experience of others who have different intersections with their gender but wants to create a space for women where they feel safe to present however they are and to be included.
Andreena:
That's a big massive thumbs up on women in CX because the attitude that you have to inclusion and embracing everybody ripples through and is felt. I felt it anyway when I came to your networking event, that it's very inclusive. There were all different women there. There was that sense of we are all women, we all belong, we all have a voice. We're there, isn't it? We're there to enhance customer experience and everybody is welcome to share their voice in that space that you've created. And I guess it's like that because of the ethos and values that you have, but because you're the leader of it and that's what you believe. That's what is then experienced and felt by the people who attend.
Clare:
Yeah, and it’s a shared set of values now, isn't it? So that's the prerequisite for joining. Do you believe in collaboration, authenticity, courageousness, inclusion, and audacity? And if the answer is yes, you're the right person for us. But if the answer to any of those things is no, then don't come because you're not going to like it. But I think for me as well, though, the intersectionality thing was also that recognition, as you pointed out, I don't know what it feels like to be in a different body. I know in the customer experience space we talk a lot about empathy and I don't think anyone can truly have empathy to understand different identities. If you don't have that identity, I don't know what it would be like to be a man. I can’t imagine walking around in a guy's body.
Clare:
It sounds like it'd be really fun, but I would never actually genuinely be able to empathize with what it's like to not have 100% of your value based on how you look or for you to be sexualized or not to be sexualized in the same way. Like so for me, that part of the community was also, like, amplifying the voices of more diverse women so that they could share their lived experiences and help people to understand where those intersections are, and the biases experienced. You might experience life so differently if you… I think you explained it really well and I loved how you explained it in the webinar. You're a woman, you're black, you're a lesbian, and you have a mental health condition. The thing that we share is our gender and mental health. But I'm not black or a lesbian. Therefore, I would not know what it was like to live your life or to have your lived experience. And that's why it's so important we hand the mic over to other people to be able to share their lived experiences, right? And to hear and to be open to hearing from what others have to say. Anyway, I feel like I'm getting a bit off-topic here.
Andreena:
No, you are. It's all the same topic. It really is. This conversation is really important because, yes, we do need people to share their lived experience. But we can also see the way that society is structured and the way things are, and that if we look outside of ourselves to see whatever privilege we have, we need to look outside of ourselves to see who's losing out. Like who's not benefiting from certain things in society. What's happening outside of our own life?
Andreena:
That's what these conversations are about. If we don't experience certain things, sometimes it doesn't really apply to us. For example, let me think of an example. So, an example. Okay, so when my friend broke her foot let's talk about that. Right? Okay. So I live in London. London is very…
Clare:
Very difficult to navigate.
Andreena:
Yeah, but I've got both legs, and I'm very active, and I'm up and down off the tube, up and down. Sometimes I choose the stairs, sometimes I choose the escalator. I just manoeuvre and do my bits, going to different places and stuff. And when Rachel broke her foot and she was on crutches for a while, and then she was in a wheelchair, actually, she ended up in a wheelchair. I had to push her around London. And that's when I discovered how difficult London is for wheelchair users. It never really occurred to me because it wasn't my lived experience.
Clare:
Exactly, yeah, something you'd not experienced. But it's like you'd have to only go to certain stations that have accessible platforms, right? And lifts. You get your choice reduced massively about what you can do.
Andreena:
We were waiting for Uber, and the Uber driver came, was ready to pick us up. Saw me standing there, saw her and drove off. He turned around and drove off. He just blatantly, just couldn't be bothered, you know? He just wanted to get an easy job. I don't know what his thought pattern was, but that was the booking because you see their registration number and stuff. So, he approached us and then went without even saying anything.
Andreena:
I think he saw the wheelchair and just couldn't be bothered. And it's just bizarre. It's really bizarre. Like, how people have to navigate life with their different intersections and how they have to the struggles that people just don't even have a clue about or just take for granted their own privilege.
Clare:
I recorded a podcast earlier today, which by the time this episode airs, will have already been out. And he's wonderful. He's like a total ally. He came to the Women in CX conference, and he spoke to a room full of women, and he said to me, I didn't see gender, I didn't see colour, I didn't see any of these things. And I was like, but that's probably because you don't feel anything about being the only man stood in a room full of women. However, when I'm the only woman stood in a room full of men or a meeting that's just purely male, I do feel different, and I do feel other. And he was like, wow, actually, yeah, that's true.
Clare:
Because his lived experience is just being accepted everywhere as a white, straight, middle-aged white guy. Right. And those intersections you talked about, like the power structures that exist or how society is constructed to serve different groups of people better, and he'd never really thought of that because it wasn't within his own lived experience. And I thought it was fascinating. But the more I think all of us can get out of our own perspective and hear from and see diverse voices talking about their lived experience. Not that we'll ever have empathy for, but we can absolutely have compassion and appreciation for. I think you said it either today or in the previous webinar that you'd done, is that sense of shared responsibility to help make things better for others who experience more challenges than you. And again, that was one of the reasons I was hoping the community could be a great place to do that for women. What do you think of that?
Andreena:
I think a lot about that. I think it's very hard to hear when people say, I don't see colour or I don't see this or I don't see that, because it's very dismissive of the people who are experiencing those things. It's like, yeah, I don't know…
Clare:
The only thing I can think is that you just haven't ever felt that, therefore you don't see it. Whatever it is.
Andreena:
Just because you don’t see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Look outside of your own self, look outside of your own privilege, look outside of your own worldview to see what others are going through. And then we can all work together for a kinder, more inclusive society where the actual, even the wealth distribution of things can be more levelled out. I'm mindful that I don't want ten pairs of trainers when I know people ain't got none. I'll have what I need. I have what I need rather than excessive amounts of things because I know what I need. But we're in a society that is very much about me, I, and mine.
Andreena:
This is mine. I want to amass all of this stuff and it's like, what is the point in all of that? What's the point in amassing all of this stuff when there are just so many people that don't have much?
Clare:
Yeah, and I guess now more than ever, we both live in the UK, London area. I don't know, it just seems to be this massive shift right now, particularly because of the politicians, anti-trans, anti-woke. I hate that word, anti-woke. This backlash against the middle and left, right now. It feels a bit like what's happening in America. It's like coming to the UK, politicians who are standing against people, I don't know, immigrants, for example, with Suella Braverman, who got sacked this morning, for people listening in the like, just standing there saying, we're going to be hard on crime, hard on… she was saying being homeless is a lifestyle choice. It's just crazy.
Andreena:
And the thing is, it's really dangerous when people have platforms…
Clare:
And privilege.
Andreena:
Yeah. Where people can actually cause mass destruction with their words. Okay, so these people in power who are talking very derogatory about trans people and the trans community and all of that, that's feeding into the wider society to fire up hate when they should be more mindful about what platform they have and the messages that they're spreading because it's causing so many problems.
Clare:
It's always for political, personal gain, isn't it? So, like someone saying something that ignites a group of, let's say, right-wing people to be like, that's my politician, because she stands for what I stand for, but with position, power, authority and platform to cause havoc. Scary.
Andreena:
It's scary times. But when we look back at history, we've always had scary times, and we've always had to just weather the storm and get through it, and then we get through it and change happens. And then we go round again where there's more destruction, but there's always going to be… I always have to be hopeful and mindful that there are more people that are out here for good than there are people out here to cause destruction. That's what I have to keep telling myself. I don't try to think that the world is a bad place and everybody's bad and everything's really bad right now. I try and live in a more optimistic way.
Clare:
Yeah. And I guess even more important, why groups such as ours need to come together to stand behind those forces for good and be those forces for good whilst the times are becoming more scary with so much difficult rhetoric out there. But we could talk about this all day and I'm sure the listeners want to know…
Andreena:
That’s why we need more people to band together and stand with the trans community, stand with different communities who are experiencing hatred, and oppression.
Clare:
Oppression.
Andreena:
Yeah, we need that unity, we need that allyship. But, yeah, we could talk about this for ages because it is really interesting, and it's really important as well.
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Clare:
The reason you came on this podcast was because we really wanted to hear more about your story, like your journey and how you've arrived at being the woman that you are today, who is an advocate for inclusion and equality and spends her time helping organizations to hear these messages through lived experience. How did you get here?
Andreena:
What a long journey. 42. You don't get to 42 without having some bumps in the road along the way.
Clare:
Well, start with your career journey first, and then maybe we can talk about some of the challenges and barriers you've overcome to get where you are today.
Andreena:
It’s been a long road.
Clare:
Where did you start your career?
Andreena:
When I say career, I never really had a career. To be fair. I left school with zero qualifications. Yeah, I left school in 1997 with nothing to my name. I didn't spend much time in school because I'm a survivor of trauma. And that trauma has plagued my life for most of my life so far. And I wasn't in the mindset to focus on school because I had other issues. I was more interested in smoking and drinking vodka and whatnot at a young age. I would say my career started. I've always been a hard worker, though, always been resourceful. And I've always been… I've always been a grafter. I've always been ambitious. I've always been resourceful. People call me Del Girl because I like selling stuff. Yeah, they call me… so when I left school, I think… what was my first job? I worked in Ikea.
Andreena:
So my customer experience and customer journey actually started from Ikea days because people always tell me “How comes you can speak to everybody?”, because regardless of where people come from, all walks of life or whatever, because I've worked in retail, I've got that customer experience built in me. It's like part of customer service. Yeah, that customer service has made me… really helped me. And then from customer service and retail, I went into admin because I had my daughter a week before my 21st birthday. And when you're young and you've got a young child and you've got no family and no support, it's really hard to leave your child with someone to go and work weekends because I was at college, and I was working weekends. And then when I had my child, I couldn't work in retail anymore because the hours just weren't suitable. And because of my trauma, I didn't want to leave my child with anyone because I didn't want them at risk of being abused or anything like that.
Andreena:
So, I ended up working in admin in the NHS. So, it was my next door neighbour at the time where I was living. When I had Rene, I was talking to my next door neighbour about the challenges of working and having a child, and she said to me, “Oh, why don't you work in retail, join this agency”, not retail, admin. And she said, “Join this agency and you can work in the NHS” or whatever. So that's how my journey in the NHS started when I was about 23 years old, 24, because Renee was about three or something at the time when I started working in the NHS. But I realized that even working in the NHS, that customer service experience that I had had from working in retail has really helped me. Because from the porters to the consultants, I can have a conversation with anybody, put anyone on any hierarchy or anything like that. I see people as people, I talk to anyone.
Andreena:
And it's really helped me, even in my business today. So, from admin, I worked in admin for about eight years or so, and then I quit smoking. I quit smoking cigarettes and then decided that if I could quit smoking, then gosh, anyone can because. remember I told you I started smoking at 13, and I quit smoking when I was 28. So, when I quit smoking at 28, I thought, oh, my gosh, I can actually control… I can control things. I am in control. I can do hard things. I quit smoking.
Andreena:
If you had known me as a smoker, I always had a cigarette hanging out my mouth. But I'm not proud to say, but I smoked throughout my pregnancy and all sorts. I often joke with Renee because she was born without any wisdom teeth, and she was born without any space for the wisdom teeth. Even when she goes for a dental scan on the X-ray, there's no wisdom teeth.
Clare:
I haven't got any either, though. And my mom didn't smoke, so.
Andreena:
I often joke about it though, because I smoked through my pregnancy. “Renee, if you ever have children, don't do that.”
Clare:
I always joke and say that means I never actually developed the wisdom either.
Andreena:
Well, I looked into it the other day, actually, and apparently, because we're not in caveman times anymore and we don't need to eat the way we do or whatever, we've evolved as human beings to not actually need wisdom teeth anymore because we're biting down on hard things. But anyway, look, you've learned something new today, your listeners. So, after quitting smoking, I decided I wanted to help people to quit smoking. And because I was in admin at the time, I was actually working for the dental service. And a lot of the dental patients who needed teeth removed, they were smokers. They had a lot of dental problems, largely because of their heavy, addicted smoking. So, what I did was set up a referral pathway between the dental service and the stop-smoking team to be able to increase the number of people going through the service and basically, created a job for myself. So that's how I left the NHS.
Andreena:
I went from a band two to a band seven in the NHS, which is quite a massive pay increase because I started volunteering with that Stop Smoking service. And a job share opportunity came with the specialist Stop Smoking advisor at the time. A job opportunity came up because she wanted to go and do counselling or study to be a therapist or something. So, we shared a job. So, we split the band seven job and that's how I got on that band seven journey. Fast forward to now. So, December 2019, I was made redundant because I spent ten years in smoking cessation. And in ten years, lots have happened in that time in terms of public health, England looking at smoking and all of that on that agenda.
Andreena:
So smoking prevalence was high when I started into that work and now it's low. It's rising now because we're in 2023, we've had a pandemic and people are taking up smoking, but usually it's young people that are not taking up smoking.
Clare:
Yeah, you did yourself out of a job, in a good way.
Andreena:
I was so good in my job. I helped so many people to quit smoking. I had such good retention know, people would see me a year later and say they're still not smoking. And I felt really proud of that journey. I felt really proud. But I also…
Clare:
You saved people's lives, probably.
Andreena:
Yeah, massively. And I felt very rejected by the NHS, having been made redundant because it was like a personal rejection. It wasn't personal. I know redundancy is not personal.
Clare:
But it feels like it.
Andreena:
It was really hard. And it was December 2019, and we went into that pandemic in March 2020. So actually, looking back, it was actually a blessing that I was made redundant because I've been able to get to where I am now, where I now work for myself. I'm fully self-employed, I'm on this journey, and I've been able to use lots of my interpersonal skills. However, not interpersonal skills. What's it…
Clare:
The relationship building probably, isn't it?
Andreena:
No. When you… Transferable skills, yeah. From all my previous employment and stuff like that, I've been able to use these transferable skills in what I do now.
Clare:
And you're an entrepreneur by nature, I think. Creating all those opportunities for yourself, from being Del Girl to creating a new pathway that got you to band seven, on behalf of providing a service that people actually needed, clearly, you were destined for entrepreneurial things.
Andreena:
I'm good at seeing opportunities and actually making moves to make it happen. I'm not afraid to take risks. Not afraid to take risks and I'm not afraid to try new things. But because I'm a know, I was talking to my partner the other day and she said, “You know what, Drena?”, because she calls me Drena, she said, “You know what? You have got the blessing of trauma.” She said, “This is going to sound really weird, but you've got the blessing of trauma”. And I was like, “What? How is trauma a blessing?” “What do you mean by that?” And she said, “Because the way that you manoeuvre through life is that you're always trying, like, you're always moving forward. You don't get stuck in a particular rut because you're always like, what's the next thing? Let's move forward, let's do this.”
Andreena:
What's happening? You're always coming up with ideas and you're always pushing forward because you have the blessing of trauma. She said that the trauma that I've been through has kind of really impacted me in the way that I live my life in survival mode sort of thing. So, I still need to unpack that stuff. It was only a few days ago that we had that conversation.
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Clare:
Yeah, it sounds like you've turned it into something positive, despite that usually being something that only ever stays a negative in one's life. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about the trauma and how that shaped you to become who you are today? Only if you feel comfortable, though, obviously.
Andreena:
Yeah, well, I've written about it in my poetry book, Charred.
Clare:
Being seen on the screen now, for anyone who's listening.
Andreena:
A survivor speaks her truth to inspire. So, writing has really helped me to express how I feel, and I've written about my childhood abuse and stuff like that. So, it's not a secret anymore or anything like that. I'm fully dealing with it now. And yeah, to cut a long story short, just to cut a long story short, I was sexually abused by my mum's husband, so he's not my dad, when I was a child, and my mom always blamed me for ruining her marriage. So, me and her have always had really difficult… conversations. We've had a difficult… as much as we've tried to, or I've tried, because I've always craved her attention and all of that stuff, she's just not been able to work through, even though she's not with him anymore. And she did support me when I was younger…
Andreena:
She hasn't come to terms with it because even when we spoke, we've been speaking on and off over the past 30 years or so, we've been on and off. And I strongly believe that she hasn't been able to come to terms with what has happened because she even said to me, like, this has affected me, too. This happened to me, too, she says this because she can't bring herself to say the words even now, she says, this happened to me too. So, it's not just you. She's not saying that she was abused as well. She's saying that the trauma of what I've been through, this happened to her too, because it was her life, it was her husband, it was her thing. But rather than us being really weird with each other, we could have probably used this as something that we both work together to be able to help each other, our mother and daughter relationships to get through this. But she's on a different journey.
Andreena:
To me, she's always been hardworking, and she's always been creative, so I get that from her. But yeah, that's a whole other story. I think for me, I'm no longer going over this stuff anymore. I'm so done with it. And I recognize as well that I had an ‘aha’ moment, as how Oprah says, when I went on this Vipassana ten-day silent retreat that I went to recently that I've just finished, where the guy basically said he said that if someone abuses you, they've abused you and done what they've done. But if you keep going over it and over it and over it and over it and over it, then you're now abusing yourself. This is on you now. And I was like, wow, that spoke to me.
Clare:
Was that the message of the title of your book? With Charred, what did that mean? Did that have significance to that?
Andreena:
Yeah. So ‘Charred’ came about because I wanted to call the book ‘Scarred’ because I've been through a lot, so I say “I'm scarred”. And my publisher, John, he said, “No, Andrea, don't call it scarred. Call it charred”, and I said, “No, John. Charred sounds like a piece of chicken on a barbecue”. I don’t want my book to be called that. But I'm not dismissive, and I don't say “I'm right” and “It's my way or the highway.” I said, “All right, John. I’ll look into it. I'll think about it”. So, I did think about it, and I contacted a company that specializes in charred wood. They sent me this lovely, beautiful piece of charred wood. I looked at it, I examined it. I researched what charred, the meaning of Charred. And it's basically a metaphor for me, for my book. It's about resilience. It's about going through so much stuff and still being beautiful, still being valid, still being strong.
Andreena:
So, at the back of the book, it says, this collection is called Charred. Think of a piece of wood that has been exposed to the flames. You may think of it as damaged, and it's true, it has been burnt and blackened, but it's still resilient and much stronger after going through this process. Think of me as a piece of charred wood. So, I'm still here in it. I'm 42. Yeah, years and years ago. I was about, what, five years old till I was ten.
Andreena:
And I'm 42 now. So, I know that I can't keep in the past, keep myself in the past, or look too much in the future. But I do want to focus on the now and know that what I'm doing now is spreading that kindness and compassion message. I'm on that sort of ‘healed people heal people’ journey where I'm looking out for my own well-being, but also helping others with their well-being and stuff like that. So, me being my fully authentic self means that I don't have to hide anymore, because I only started talking about my trauma and the abuse when I was 38, so it was quite late that even with the MeToo movement and all that, that was going on, like, years ago, I never added my voice to the conversation. I stayed silent about that because I wasn't ready to share my experience or speak on that. And I kept silent for a really long time. So now that I've broken the silence on that, I'm able to work through it.
Andreena:
I'm on my healing journey and I'm here helping others and I'm here doing the best that I can with the resources I have.
Clare:
I love that about you. I think childhood trauma. Childhood trauma, it's a particularly difficult wound, isn't it? Because at that age, you just don't know any different. And your brain isn't evolved enough to have reasoning as to why these things happen. But to see someone experience such depth of pain, to arrive at where you are today, having turned this pain into power, or the blessing that your partner calls it, to not become a person that continues to be in that pain state and hurt others, which can happen to a lot of children who've been abused, right? But to become this light in the world as I described you with this energy that is making an active difference in the world by sharing her story and not hiding parts of herself, but somehow managed to go from being that little girl to someone who fully stands in her authenticity, embraces every aspect of her identity. I just think you're incredible.
Clare:
And I'm sure there'll be people listening along where a lot of the stuff you talked about has resonated with them. And yeah, I think having role models that we can look up to, who aren't preaching perfection, talking about being real, being our whole selves, the good, the bad, the ugly, but not judging ourselves for it, I think that's a seriously powerful, compassionate place to be. So, I salute you. You're one strong woman.
Andreena:
I salute you as well. Even in our little chats and stuff, you've revealed some stuff about you, and I just think, wow. Because that's the thing, isn't it, about sharing parts of who we are and stuff. You can't look at someone and know what they've been through and all of us in society are going through something no one escapes. No one escapes. You don't know what people have been through just by looking at them. So, it's a blessing when someone actually does feel confident enough or comfortable enough to share certain parts of their identity with you, because then that's a privilege. Yes.
Andreena:
There are loads of women in your community that benefit from the support of each other, just with the community that you've created.
Clare:
Yeah, feeling safer to share who you really are.
Andreena:
Personal and professional transformations. And I think it's encouraging to know that people have been through stuff and they're still keeping going because there are so many people who have experienced this level of trauma that are not here anymore, they're not with us, for a reason are not here. So, we have to just keep shining that light and helping others. So, yeah, thank you for acknowledging that. I see you as well.
Clare:
Thank you. So, if there was one piece of advice or takeaway you'd like to leave our listeners with, how would you wrap this up?
Andreena:
I would wrap this up by saying that we only have one life and it's important that we live our life to the best of our ability and acknowledge that everything is temporary, nothing's permanent, and things come and go, but the person that you are has a ripple effect throughout the world and all of us. Within ourselves, we have so much power, and just by being ourselves, can really have positive impacts on society. So, I would encourage everyone to be on this kindness and compassion journey because it's very contagious. It's very contagious. You give kindness and compassion not to receive anything in return, but you inspire more people to be kind and compassionate, but it all comes back anyway.
Clare:
Everybody benefits.
Andreena:
Everyone benefits. Just be yourself and just know that life is a blessing, and we're just all trying to navigate it.
Clare:
And I think my takeaway would be, I think that metaphor about choosing to be charred and not scarred by whatever's happened to you in the past, by letting those wounds become transformative in a way that you can become even more beautiful. And not to look at those wounds as something to be ashamed of like scars, battle scars, even, that that's part of who you are. And to summon the strength to turn that into something positive the way that you have, I think that's what I'm going to take away from this. I feel very inspired.
Andreena:
That's really nice. I've loved this conversation. It's been really interesting.
Clare:
I always love talking to you. And we could go on probably all night, couldn't we? But let's plan to have a part two, maybe of this podcast next year and see what's changed since then. And I'd love you to come back to the community to share more of your inspirational messages about lived experience and equality. But yeah, not just during Pride or Black History Month, as I know that’s your busiest times.
Andreena:
All year round.
Clare:
All year round, yeah. So where can people get more information about you or connect with you if they want to hear more about the services you provide? LinkedIn? A website?
Andreena:
Yeah, I have a website, www.andreena.co.uk, or LinkedIn, Andreena Leeanne. I’m having a social media detox at the moment, so I'd say the website.
Clare:
Website. Yeah. It's necessary sometimes, isn't it, just to switch all that stuff off. But we'll make sure we put links to that in the show notes under the podcast. So that's it. Thank you so much for sharing yourself with us today.
Andreena:
Thank you so much for having me.
Clare:
You're welcome. And thank you to everybody who's listened or watched along at home. And we'll see you all next time. Bye for now.
Andreena:
Take care. Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt.
If you enjoyed the episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology!
Well, that’s all for now!
Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to an awesome woman and a speaker at last year’s Women in CX Global Gathering Conference, Maria McCann about gender roles in the workplace and whether CX frameworks are killing our ability to innovate. See you all very soon!
