Clare Muscutt talks with Natasha den Dekker about UX research & becoming the role model she never had.
Clare:
Welcome to the 1st episode of the sixth series of the Women in CX podcast – a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects. I'll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today's episode, I’ll be talking to an incredible community member from the UK.
She’s an award-winning UX Researcher, having worked for a start-up and various public-sector-focused consultancies as a User Research Consult, with her focus upon improving government digital services. Prior to her work as a UX Research, she worked as an Information Professional in the NHS, at Oxfam, and as a Librarian at Microsoft UK – which provided her with many of the skills she uses today! Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest, CX sister, Natasha den Dekker.
Clare:
Hi Natasha!
Natasha:
Hi Clare. How are you doing?
Clare:
I'm great. How are you today?
Natasha:
I'm very well, thank you.
Clare:
Hey, welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast.
Natasha:
Thank you for having me.
Clare:
Yes, and welcome to everybody who's listening or watching along wherever you are. So, Natasha, I'm going to jump straight in with the same question I ask all of our guests, and that is to share your story of how you found your way into the Women in CX community and how things have been going for you so far!
Natasha:
So I found my way into the community because I was looking for another space to network with the kind of people, -mainly women, if I'm honest- that were interested in User Experience/Customer Experience, but that would also widen my own understanding and network but also wasn't so focused on design. Because there are so many communities out there that are just focused on design. There is-, I can name five Slack communities off the top of my head that are just focused on design. And there are others that are focused on research and we'll talk about this in a minute. And I wanted somewhere where it was a little bit more holistic and also where I would get exposed to more - again - women that were at different levels of seniority. A - so I could learn, and also for my networking.
Natasha:
And I was researching and then I was on LinkedIn, then I saw you and you have a great profile! And I saw the group community and the group and I was like, "Yes, I want to be part of that!" And while I haven't been as engaged as I would like to have been for the last few months, for reasons which we will talk about, I really value being part of the community and I really like the way everyone is everyone's hype person! And also the way we are given opportunities in that space that we don't - where it's often harder to get those sometimes in work, or if you're trying to do it on your own. So yeah, that's my take on the community!
Clare:
What kind of opportunities have you enjoyed?
Natasha:
Well, I think the fact that we are having this conversation, which is amazing! And also the fact that I'm running a masterclass in a few weeks...
Clare:
Yes! I can't wait for that one!
Natasha:
...which is also ridiculous to me because I'm like, "Oh me! A masterclass?". It doesn't,- they don't always correlate in my mind. So being able to be given those opportunities and being able to run with those. Because when you're in a work situation, you often have to push really hard for those sorts of things. And you have to ask for the time and you have to prove why you should be given those opportunities before people give you those opportunities. And as a woman, we know that's 10 times harder! And I'm really glad that this is a community where we get to flex those muscles, which is great for, not just career development, but for personal development as well.
Clare:
Yeah. And for everybody, right? Because much to your disagreement though, you are an expert in what you do!
Natasha:
Thank you.
Clare:
And helping our community to understand User Research through a masterclass is an awesome way to give back, right? And as you said, you know, the draw and the attraction of being part of a really diverse community that is holistic and takes in multiple disciplines and industries and backgrounds and cultures, is the fact that we get to share so much diversity and figure out some of those lesser understood areas for ourselves as individuals. Whilst giving our expertise in the thing that we do know a lot about. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your insights at the upcoming masterclass! And was Deanna something to do with how you found us?
Natasha:
Yes! Because I think Deanna interviewed me, didn't she? For something way back and Deanna's great!
Clare:
It was a prospect's research, wasn't it?
Natasha:
Yeah, I think it was. And then she spoke to me about it and the more she told me about it, I was like, 'Oh, this actually sounds really good!' And then I looked into it more. I was like, 'Oh, actually, this is definitely something that I want to be part of.' Because I remember having a really good interview with Deanna, because I think she'd caught me - I think when my previous role wasn't going amazingly. So I was probably more candid than I would have been at a different point about UX and things like that.
Clare:
Yeah. And just for the listeners who probably don't what we're talking about. Because Women in CX is entirely a product of research and co-design with our members - we did a big piece of research last year that involved existing members, people who'd left and people who were interested in joining us. And Natasha was one of those. So it was an actual qualitative research interview about needs and goals and how the community and support… wasn't it? So, great that we're going to be talking about user research today!
Clare:
Because how ironic that, actually, that the initiation point that got you hooked to come and take part was actually our User Research. So, thank you, for that amazing segue! So I'm sure our listeners would love to know more about your career journey. And you've said there's a few little ups and downs already - you have highlighted that - but you know, you're at Santander now...you're in a lead position. How did this start? How did you get to be this awesome woman that you are today?
Natasha:
Thank you! So I've been...I would say working professionally in a proper career for the last 10 years. And I started out as a Librarian. So I was a LIbrarian for the better part of, I would say, six years.
Clare:
I love that about you! A Librarian!
Natasha:
I started out as a Librarian in a very niche organisation. So I was a Librarian at Microsoft, which is a very unique place to have that sort of role. And what it did was that it exposed me to a lot of business practices and business culture and things that even now I'm like, 'Oh, we would...' They were doing stuff long before other organisations were doing stuff! So when people talk about Agile, CanBan and Scrum and all of this sort of thing. And working from home and hybrid working and different communities...Bitcoin - you know stuff like that. I was already aware of it before it even hit kind of mainstream. And so I did that for five years. I took what I thought was my dream job at a charity for a year. It was not. And I was doing communications and stuff like that. I did a lot of travelling, but, I think working at a charity - and this is worth another podcast...
Clare:
Another conversation!
Natasha:
... Is a very unique environment that I wasn't suited to. So, then, I ended up doing a stint as a Clinical Evidence Specialist at an NHS trust, which was more closely in line to my previous library work. And that was a maternity cover contract - which is great by the way! Because I think the good thing about having a contract role is that there are rarely any probation periods, you can just get in and do the work and not have to worry about the politics that are happening around you! Because you're not going to be there long enough to have to worry about it. So it was a great role! And coming off the back of my charity job, which had been - frankly, the ending hadn't been really good. It gave me a chance to heal and get my confidence back. And I don't think we talk enough about how... when you're in a bad job situation, the toll it can take on your confidence and your mental health. It took me a year to kind of get over that and feel like me again. And by which point it was the end of my contract and I was like, 'What do I do?' I live in the West Midlands and in the West Midlands, you either work for Jaguar Land Rover...
Clare:
I used to live near there! So I know it's true facts!
Natasha:
You work for JLR, you work for a hospital, or you work for the civil service. Because the DFE is in Coventry. There are a few offices up in... I think DWP is in Tamworth and I think the Department for Levelling Up is in Wolverhampton. So, I was like, 'I don't what I should do?' Because I don't really want to commute to Leicester. So I saw a job ad for a User Research Consultant from my first company. And it's a really interesting interview, where I spoke to the manager- who's actually now my friend - and they said, 'Tell us a story of something that you just watched or that you've just seen and talk us through it.' And I was like, 'Okay, this is one of the more interesting interviews I've done.'
Clare:
So you liked it straight away?
Natasha:
Yeah! And then I sent through my CV - which I'm embarrassed to say was a very-. Now, in hindsight, I'm like, 'Wow!' It was not a...don't get me wrong, all the content was there, but it wasn't laid out in the most accessible way. And, long story short, I went in for the interview on a Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon and they called me back at, I think half six or something, to let me know that I'd got the role. And then that was in 2019. And was it 2019? Yeah, that was 2019.
Clare:
Those pre-pandemic years seem a really long time ago, don't they?
Natasha:
Yeah, it all blurs together! And then I ended up being a UX Research Consultant in the public sector.
Natasha:
And, I think, it's a combination of things, right? Because you only get as many opportunities, as you create space to have those opportunities. I think. And I went into this role kind of like...'Okay, I'm going to make a go of it'. It was really hard because I was essentially changing careers - completely new things to learn. I don't have a design background. I have- I would say that I have a very clear social science, research background. And I went into this role and I was very lucky that I had a great team around me. I'm still friends with her and I'm still really close with the guy that was the Designer on the team - we are still friends and we talk fairly often. I worked on some great projects.
Natasha:
Then I was in the public sector for a while. I worked at a start-up. I tried a role at one company and - something after my really terrible experience at a charity - I've gotten a lot better at listening to my gut instinct. And I know now that if there's... sometimes you just know. And yeah, I think, subconsciously we know before we consciously know. And there's a really great quote from Steven Spielberg where he says: "Listen to the whispers. And when you listen to those whispers, that's usually when you make the right, and probably the most momentous decisions, that you're going to make". And I was at a company for three months and I was like, 'You know what? It's a no'. So I handed in my notice within my probation period and I left. And they pretended that they'd fired me, whatever, and I was like, 'No, no, I'm handing you my notice! This is not for me.'
Natasha:
I went and worked for a startup for a while and then I ended up at a legal services company. And the thing you should take away from this is that I am incredibly driven and I am incredibly- not ambitious in the way where I want a bigger office, bigger car, anything like that. But I am ambitious in the sense that - I'll be frank - I want the money to do nice things, right?
Clare:
No shame in that!
Natasha:
And the only way to do that is to progress and scale up your own skills and all the rest of it. And because of my last job - my manager and I... I think we're just different people. I lost a bit of confidence and it took a really good recruiter, actually, she's a great recruiter! And she was- because we spoke a few times- and she's like, 'I want to put you forward for this role at Santander'. And I was like, 'Oh, I don't know...it's a lead position?' And she was like, 'Well, let's do it!'.
Natasha:
So Christmas - I'm not joking - Christmas 2022, I had an interview on the Monday just before the Christmas holidays. I had an interview on the Monday and they let me know on the Tuesday that they wanted me for the job. And then obviously with background checks and everything, because it is a bank. I still can't decide what's worse - going in for certain government clearance or background for an organisation? You're looking at a six or seven-week turnaround! And then, yeah, now I'm a lead UX Researcher at one of the largest banks in the country - if not Europe, actually!
Natasha:
So that's...on paper, it sounds amazing, but it hasn't always been easy. I sit here and...I mean now it's a lot more different. It's very rare now that I struggle to do my applications because terribly I see it as a game. You shouldn't, I know! And, I think because I've been rejected from so many jobs over the last few years and I've been to so many interviews that now I tend to look at it as 'I get it, great! I don't get it, at least I tried!' Because of that really old quote about 'you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take' - I think that is so true! Because trying costs a little bit, there's a lot to be learnt in the trying and the failing. Which took me - I think this is probably because I'm a millennial - because we are not really, I don't think we're taught failure very well.
Natasha:
But I've learnt a lot from my failures - and there've been some incredibly horrific failures. But I've learnt so much from them and I've carried that through. And now when I'm in this lead position and I have a team, and I have researchers who are more junior to me, I'm like, 'oh, I definitely see how I can carry through some of the lessons I've learned.' I'll probably mess up in other ways, but I can carry through some of those lessons so I can benefit the people around me!
Clare:
Oh, that's awesome. And, I think, two reflections from me, is that I totally agree that the biggest lessons are often in failure. When you are having a nice time and everything's great, that's easy, isn't it? But you're not necessarily growing. And I know that you and I talked offline quite often, didn't we? About this career transition and what to do. And being able to keep getting up and dusting yourself off I think- after rejection, after failure, after, you know, whatever these things are that come your way. And you know, that 'is it me feeling?' When you are experiencing a lot of friction in the workplace, or with a line manager, and just trying to keep your head above the water through those times. Being able to look back and build on those - make sure, for example, your people that you're now leading don't ever feel some of those things that you felt! By being 'misunderstood' because of a lack of understanding of what you do. You know, you are now in a position to change that for people! So I'm super glad that you are in this position now and you're leading a group of researchers because I think you are going to absolutely smash it there! But I think we've already started touching on a couple of the challenges and barriers you've experienced, but what would be one big one that you've either overcome, or you are working to overcome, that's helped you become the woman you are today?
Natasha:
Well, I think there's the obvious one- that I'm a woman! I mean that's the big one!
Clare:
Can you overcome that?
Natasha:
I don't know - it's an ongoing problem that we'll never solve. I think, and also, I am a woman of colour. I don't know what the current acronym for being a woman of colour is. Because I know BAME isn't really used - that's not meant to be used anymore. Person of colour? I think people are funny about that. So I am not white! I'm a woman of colour and I think I have operated in predominantly white spaces my entire life. And as a first-generation person that was born in England, it means that there are a lot of cultural touchpoints that I don't have, and that impacted me growing up. And it's meant that I don't ever really feel like I fit in anywhere. And that's a fairly- you can probably hear my dog in the background.
Clare:
Yeah. Just a bit of a whoofing!
Natasha:
I'm so sorry!
Clare:
That's fine.
Natasha:
And I think it means that I've never really fit in anywhere, and that's been hard. I'm in my late thirties, mid to late thirties now, and it's taken a lot of therapy! Where my therapist was like, 'But, what it has given you is an ability to blend into the majority of the situations that I find myself in'. And that isn't something that I thought about. Because I went to a very nice school growing up - really, really nice school. And then I went to a university where a lot of the kids had gone to grammar schools and I just let them assume I'd gone to a grammar school as well. Because that was- and I realised that's their own bias, right?
Natasha:
They see a well-educated Asian girl and they just assume grammar, and not that I'd gone to a really good independent school. So that's their bias! And I think in terms of my work life, being a person of colour means that people have certain expectations of the life you've led up until that point, and the types of schools you've been to, the type of life that you lead. So, personally, people are always really surprised that I've travelled as much as I have, that I have tattoos - that's always a surprise. And then professionally, I have a very non-typical Asian person CV, which I'm so happy to say is changing! I meet so many young Asian women now that are being given the freedom to not just go and have to study law or economics, or some variation of medicine.
Natasha:
Right. And I love that! My team at the moment is so diverse, and it gives me so much joy to see that. And I'm always like, 'How can I empower these women to do more...how can I give them more opportunities?' So I think those are very obvious obstacles. And I think the other ones are personal ones for me. Where I think, when you grow up a certain way, you have certain ways of communicating, certain ways of just being in the world around you. And I've had to unlearn a lot of that, to push myself out of my comfort zone and also learn that failure isn't bad. It feels bad! But it's actually not bad. The other thing is that because I have a tendency to be a people pleaser, the way you talk is often geared around that. And I've had to learn how to talk in a more assertive way and I got some terrible feedback a year and a half ago, about the way that I talk invites people to question me. And that wasn't nice to hear. And I was like…
Clare:
What does that even mean?
Natasha:
Right? But the thing is the person that said that to me, they're a very, very good researcher. And they were saying it from a professional standpoint. And obviously, I mean, it's a bit personal as well. But when I went away and thought about it, I was like, 'Actually that's a really valid point.' It's not nice to hear, but it was an incredibly valid point and I've taken that through the way that I communicate. And I think as a woman, as you progress, you either have to learn to communicate in a way that's effective. And before, if we look at the eighties and nineties, it would mean "communicate like a man" - which I think is BS. So I've just learned...because in linguistics you have this thing, where they say you should use more modal verbs.
Natasha:
So instead of 'I might do this', it's 'I will do this, I do do this'. And I've tried to be more modal in the way that I communicate. And also things-, because, even today, I had to do something and the way that it was done was just not efficient. And I was like, 'Why have we done it this way?' And I said, "Next time I'd recommend that we do it this way." And everyone was like, 'Oh, okay, yeah, fine. Let's talk about that.' Whereas a few years ago, I would never have said it like that. I wouldn't have said anything at all, or I would've been like, 'Do you think maybe we could think about doing it this way?' I was like, no, I'd recommend we do it this way.
Clare:
Yeah. To be way more direct and assertive about it.
Natasha:
Yeah. But still polite, still open to collaboration and stuff.
Clare:
Of course, yeah!
Natasha:
Because you don't ever want to, I think there's a tendency for people to think, especially with women, right? That when we're being...when you are being firm and assertive, you're...
Clare:
Well, it can just be misjudged, right? Like it can.
Natasha:
Yeah, completely!
Clare:
If a man was behaving exactly the same way, it would be fine. But there's something about when it's a woman, like 'who does she think she is?' Or like 'she's bossy', or it can be misconstrued as some kind of unexpected dominant behaviour. And it's not - we're doing exactly the same thing the guy is, but yeah, because we're female, it comes off differently.
Clare:
There's so much to unpick in what you just talked about! Obviously, I'm also a woman with a similar barrier to overcome, but I'm not a woman of colour or a person of colour. So, the first thing I just wanted to pick up on there is, operating in environments where you are actually excluded and - perhaps not intentionally, but through unconscious bias or something systemic - I just wondered, did you have any role models that you looked up to?
Natasha:
No. Because I think - and by the way, I'm so glad this is changing as well, because I hope that if there are women listening to this and if you're a woman of colour, please reach out. I think it is changing, but it is really hard. Because I think a lot of people will - back when, what was this ten years ago...nine years ago - people were still saying things like, 'I don't see colour', and that would be okay. And on the surface that sounds okay, but it is taken...
Clare:
It's not really.
Natasha:
No, it's not. And it's taken me a lot of unlearning to realise that by saying that you are...
Clare:
It's a microaggression.
Natasha:
... well you are also erasing the depth of someone's experience. Because by saying you don't see colour to someone who is black, or who maybe has gypsy, who is a gypsy or identifies as a traveller or anything like that by saying, 'I don't see colour, I don't see any of these things'. You are erasing such an important facet of who they are and who they present as. Actually, how can you then say we are being inclusive?
Clare:
We should be celebrating the difference, right?
Natasha:
Yeah. And not just celebrating it, but welcoming it, and welcoming the diverse views that it brings! Because there's such a great example. So, I think it's been doing the rounds on social media - which is going to completely date this podcast - but there's a few bits of ChatGTP that have been going around, where people have been asking, you know, those questions of like, 'boy gets in an accident with his Dad and then has to be taken to the hospital, but the surgeon can't operate on him. Why not?' And, ChatGTP literally, physically has an absolute breakdown because it can't accept that the surgeon is a woman and she's the mother of the son. And there are lots of different variations of this because ChatGTP has clearly been programmed and written by a group of very...
Clare:
White dudes!
Natasha:
Yeah. Men. And a very non-diverse group of people. And that's what happens! You end up, and I know it's been written about invisible women, you know, so...
Clare:
Yeah. But it's also where the source content comes from, right? Because it's pulling from the internet, and so much of the content on the internet is again, dominated by non-diverse people. It is pulling source information that is biased and racist in many cases.
Natasha:
Yeah! And, I always say this to people! I always say, your design or whatever, is only ever as good as how the researchers informed it. Because if you are only ever - and it's the same with when people get interviewed for jobs - because there's a tendency to hire people that look and sound like you. Which is why I'm massively in favour of having panel interviews and making sure that they're more diverse because candidates feel safe. Because I always say to people that, if you want to get the best out of someone in an interview, then the candidate needs to be safe so they can be at their best! How are we enabling people to be their best selves to give their best answers? And it's just little things like that. So when you hear about diversity and inclusion, yes, you have those overarching policies, but for me, it's those day-to-day things that help people. How are people being empowered to be their best selves? And I think because of my own experiences, it's something that I carry through and I'm always very conscious of it. Regardless of where I work and whatever role I have, I'm always very, very conscious of it.
Clare:
Well, you get to be the role model now though, right? Because women of colour are looking up to you, and seeing someone who is actually living and breathing and doing the stuff that you wish you'd seen when you were on your way up!
Natasha:
I hope so.
Clare:
And I think that's what it's about, right? Is being able to embody that thing that you were missing and keep putting your hand back down to help lift the next generation.
Natasha:
I think a really good example of this is back when I was working in libraries. And it's a very white environment - and it's slowly changing - but it is a very white, middle-class environment. And I kept getting asked to do all these talks and stuff. And people forget, you can do this right, but you can say no! And I actually started saying no. And I said, 'Have you thought about x, y, z person?' Because, and this is something that my partner and I talk about a lot, is that-. And I know people are all about that hustle life and getting exposure and stuff. But I think, part of when you're in a certain position, is that part of the power that you have is saying, 'Actually, how about I hand it over to someone else?' How about I give someone else an opportunity?
Clare:
Yeah, totally agree!
Natasha:
How about I say no? Or how about I educate this person that's asking me, on all the other great people they could ask, who potentially would really benefit from this opportunity in a way that I would, but you know, they would benefit from it more? And I think we don't do that enough. We don't open it up to more people. Because the door gets open a little bit, and then it's like, 'Well no, let's open up the whole bloody thing!' So more people can go through it’. And that's something that I've done. And there's lots of stuff online about inclusion riders, and I don't do it as much now, but when I do get asked to talk for something, I'm always like, 'Okay, how many other people of colour do you have on the roster?' If you don't have this much, then I'm not doing it. You know, and stuff like that.
Clare:
And encouraging them! Yeah, I've got an example, actually! Of me, which was, I got asked to judge some awards.
Natasha:
Nice.
Clare:
And the panel was all white dudes. So I was like, 'Well, this doesn't really represent what I stand for in Women in CX. So, I was like 'Actually, I know a woman of colour who is way better at this particular area - which is contact centres- than me. I'd like to put her forward for this opportunity. And also so you can start to recognise the benefit of having diversity in gender'. And not just a 'homogenous-everyone-looks-the-same' panel. And over the course of the last couple of years, I ended up working with them still as a presenter of the awards instead. But this year, their panel was majority women and of all different colours.
Natasha:
Amazing!
Clare:
I was like, wow! Being able to see that change happen, as a result of me saying 'I'm not going to do it, but I know someone who can', and pass the baton to someone who actually is way more qualified than me to do it! And that person has also since gone on to increase her visibility, and been asked to do lots more things because she was seen, you know? So, I think it's that privilege, isn't it? When you get that privilege, being able to pass that on. And that's part of why I love our community so much. Because now people come to me and say, 'We want more gender diversity in our events, or our podcasts or our events'. And I'm like, here's a whole load of amazing women that you can now have as speakers and guests, that were just never seen before.
Natasha:
I love that!
Clare:
Yeah. So that was a nice reminder of that one! And then the second thing I was going to unpick here is people pleasing.
Natasha:
Yes.
Clare:
Now, I think, because I'm also a people pleaser - I think there is definitely a link between Women in Customer Experience and our inherent people-pleasing tendencies. Because basically what we're doing, is trying to make things better for the population out there, whether it's Employees, Users or Customers. But you mentioned something, which was based on a negative experience that you'd had, leading you to be able to be more attuned to other people. And how you've kind of taken that negative to be able to blend in, I think was the words you said?
Natasha:
Yes.
Clare:
But people pleasing is not a good thing when you are not putting your own needs first. For sure. It's a terrible way to live your life. And I also suffer with people-pleasing tendencies.
Natasha:
Yes!
Clare:
But you've turned that pain into something more powerful now, through the assistance of therapy, which I also have.
Natasha:
Yep.
Clare:
And anyone out there who's considering it, a hundred per cent go for it...
Natasha:
Yep. Hundred per cent.
Clare:
Your life will get better as a result. But I think it's super interesting the way that you're presenting this career journey, and the barriers and challenges you've overcome, as having been able to learn and take from what has been painful in many situations. Failing hurts - there are no two ways about it! But continuing to be able to build that into the next iteration of yourself. And you know, whether it's been harsh feedback that you found a grain of truth in, was able to build off the back of that. I think these are all super skills that we need to embrace, in being able to continue to make that move forward. Because, just to quote what you said earlier, you know, you wouldn't have even spoken up, you wouldn't have given your opinion even! And now you know how to assertively, but still positively, frame why you think something needs to be different next time. And I just think being able to look back and see that growth curve, and now to be in this leadership position where you actually have some authority to be able to do things differently, is just a really great story. So I just wanted to thank you for being vulnerable and open and sharing.
Natasha:
Thank you. Thank you.
Clare:
Because I think more of us need to be talking about the parts of our experience that have led us to be where we are today.
Natasha:
Oh, what, not like on LinkedIn, where I should just talk about all the amazing things that I've done? I got up at five and I created a business and I made a billion pounds by five o'clock. Yeah. What!
Clare:
Yeah. And manage my household and five kids at the same time. I have it all! Well, it's just not true. And I think there's so much pressure because of things like social media, and people just talking about the outcomes, the results, the good bits - that not enough people share the reality of how bloody hard it is, what it's like to be burnt out all the time, what it's like to experience mental health challenges!
Natasha:
Yeah!
Clare:
And part of the reason I love this podcast is because we can show up and have real talk conversations. And I know our listeners give us the feedback that's what they love about it. It's warts and all! But the turning pain into power part of what you've been talking about, I'm finding super inspiring. So, good on you, Natasha!
Natasha:
Thank you.
Clare:
And I've personally seen you grow in this last year, for sure.
Natasha:
Thank you.
Clare:
And it's your confidence, I think, that's grown.
Natasha:
Thank you.
Clare:
So moving into the next section, while we're giggling away! Moving into the next section is to be thinking about your expert area now and this whole concept of UX and UX research and all of that lovely stuff. So I think maybe we should start assuming that we've got a very diverse podcast listenership, that might not be so familiar with UX. What exactly is it is my first question. And how is it similar, or different, to Customer Experience? What are the intersections betwixt the two?
Natasha:
Ooh, so this is a great question and it's one that I do often think about. Because I think for outside looking in, it's really difficult to draw that boundary. And I would say- so, just in terms of User Research, when we talk about UX, it's split out into a number of disciplines. So I would put myself as a UX Researcher, but you could also be a UX Designer. And that could also be broken down into interaction design and visual design. And I would say visual design is very close to what we used to call Graphic Design back in the day! We also have what is now trendy - people are called UX writers - but I would say that's more aligned with content design. And I think that's really seeing its heyday now because we are seeing the growth of chatbots and conversational design. So having those content design skills, I think is incredibly valuable. And then you have someone like yourself, Clare, who classes themselves as a Service Designer. And that I think is an incredibly unique skill.
Clare:
Well, I did class myself as a Service Designer, but now I class myself as a CX designer because I metabolised lots of different disciplines and the way that I do it!
Natasha:
Nice! No, but I love it though. And so all of those fit into 'UX'. And the whole aim of it is to surface the needs and wants of users, and to design services that fit the needs of, as wide an array as possible, of those users. So if you are creating something that is not just for one specific demographic - I mean, unless you are developing a very bespoke product, then yes, of course - but if you are coming from a public sector background, you need something that everyone can access, everyone can use. Something simple as the fields on a digital form- are the forms big enough to allow for really long surnames? Do they allow for double-barreled surnames? And the only way you can find that information out is if you conduct...I don't know, surveys, interviews. You create prototypes and you test those, and you research those, with as wide a sample of the population as you can. So that's where I see User Research and where I see Customer Experience. And I know maybe some of the listeners will not like this...
Clare:
I love that. Be provocative!
Natasha:
...I think I see Customer experience as being a little bit more reactionary, whereas research can be a little slower. Not always, but the-, if we're looking at discovery work, that's a little bit slower. It's more geared towards...how can we create this? How can we do this? Whereas Customer Experience is..."We've got this Voice of the Customer stuff, we've got our MPS surveys, they're coming in. We are being told that this thing isn't working right. We need to go and fix it." But, usually, problems don't occur in isolation. And User Research is about understanding how that problem fits in context. And I think - by the way, this has been my experience of Customer Experience, sorry - just from the relationship managers and the success managers that I've spoken to. And also a very heavy focus on quantitative numbers.
Natasha:
So, a lot of statistics, a lot of percentages. Whereas a lot of research is mixed methods. So it's a lot of qualitative, a lot of quantitative information being pulled together to pull out really good insights. Because anyone can do a survey and say, 'Yes, 56% of people said they don't like this', fine! But out of those 56% of people - how many of them have X amount of income? How old are they? Where do they live? How do all those factors combined contribute to why they gave that answer? And that's where the UX research is because it's the nuance, it's the context. But I think, and again, I've seen this in the last year or so in different roles. I think where the crossover is, is actually sharing more because I think people can get super territorial and super protective of their, I don't know, their data, their users, their people.
Natasha:
It's like, "Oh, I don't want you to bother them". And it's really funny because we have the same aim - which is building better services, building better experiences. And I think it's about sharing more effectively and actually understanding what you need to share. Because obviously I don't need-, a relationship manager doesn't need to know that I spoke to...that, I don't know, I'm going to speak to 20 people about XYZ thing. What they need to know is, out of those 20 people, do the issues they have align with what they found coming from the NPS surveys from the last 90 days? That's what they need to know. So it's about marrying up that information. And I think that's slowly changing and I'm seeing more people that are open to that. Because Customer Experience, as a concept, I think has been around in larger organisations, than User Experience. And I don't just mean the design bit. I mean the research bit - the bit where you do the discovery, you test the prototypes, and you get the feedback. And you feed that into decision-making and building your problem statements and stuff like that.
Natasha:
That was a lot!
Clare:
No, it wasn't! I was actually just looking at the community because someone told me something the other day and I can't find it right now. Which was about...basically, User Experience was used at a conference one day and then it got absorbed into the world as something that was to do with digital. But that was never its intention!
Natasha:
Right!
Clare:
And I'm desperately looking for the reference point to this. But I'll definitely include it in the show notes because there's a little YouTube video about it!
Natasha:
Oh, nice.
Clare:
I literally can't find it right now! But yeah...you could hear, you know, same intents and purposes - trying to do the same thing. But I think you're right! The way that businesses interpret it, can be quite different.
Clare:
And I know talking to women in the community who are applying for CX roles. And they can be anything from research and insights, through to design, through to customer support and customer service and training and everything. Because it's so broad, in terms of skillsets and it's always so different, right? Because depending on what industry you work in and what vertical...
Natasha:
Yeah!
Clare:
...what Customer Experience is for your organisation. It's always going to mean different things! Whereas, I think that User Experience is better understood because it's been absorbed into the consciousness of the world as something digital.
Natasha:
That's interesting!
Clare:
Well, I suppose this is just my experience. You know, you shared yours and I'm sharing mine! Where you are more likely to have - if there are in-house teams that are responsible for any experience - they would more likely be resourced in UX than they would in CX.
Natasha:
Yeah, that's fair.
Clare:
Because also it's tangibly more valuable too, because people don't have to make a grand leap, to understand if I desire a journey that's really easy for people to use, it's going to translate to ourselves! Whereas, you know, in the context of an end-to-end experience, or even service design to some extent. Some of the more salient points around emotional responses to people is much harder to grasp and hold on to.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Clare:
And therefore less well-invested, and less well-understood. But for me, I think actually it is time for CX to have a 2.0. And that's what, I guess, I'm working on with our community members and with the course that I'm developing. Is being able to use some of the skill bases that come from outside our traditional industry. Not just to use surveys to drive improvement, but to use design and research to drive innovation and change.
Clare:
Because the world around us is being so rapidly shifted by technology.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Clare:
But you can't do CX without UX! You know, you can't do a future design of where your organisation's experience is going, if you don't really understand, and can deliver against that stuff.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Clare:
So, I think we actually need a 2.0, that can metabolize digital and technology as part of the way that the world is shifting. And I think it's great that you know, we are in this community where we've got people that have expertise in all of these different areas to be able to do that.
Natasha:
Yeah!
Clare:
But it also relies on organisations not driving CX in the direction of RCX's and NPS scores!
Natasha:
Yeah. And I've seen that, right? Where it's essentially like, "Our MPS score is this...we better bump it up by five points and that's our deliverable for the year!"
Clare:
An arbitrary target, yeah! And then all the resources going into surveys and technology to drive surveys! In the determination to improve that MPS, which as anybody knows, it's so subjective anyway. Whether something is good or not, as an experience, is all to do with an individual. So, I think we're on the same page, or be it coming from slightly opposite ends.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Clare:
But I'd be super excited to work on shaping up that 2.0 version of what CX is, with you. So yeah, in the absence of being able to find that quote, that will be included in the show notes (Don Norman: The term “UX”), if listeners want to find out more about where that came from. But what is the state of UX from your point of view? And I know you and I have talked offline about some of the challenges around the current state of UX. I just talked about the current state of CX and where we need to move to. What's your view on the state of UX?
Natasha:
Well, at the moment, it is completely in...I don't know, there might be people that have been in the industry longer than me that could disagree. But, I think it's in a really odd state of flux. Because at the moment my LinkedIn is filled with people getting laid off from the giants - from Meta, from Spotify, from places like that. But then my inbox is filled with people looking for contract User Researchers, for ridiculous day rates. Like the kind of day rates where you are like, "Oh, is that what I should be doing?"
Clare:
I love a day-rate job!
Natasha:
And it doesn't always compute. And I think there's a definite need for, and I say this from a User Research perspective, I've definitely seen a need for User Researchers. And I often see a need for UX designers. And it's very rare that you'll see people be like, "I need an interaction designer, I need a visual designer, I need a content designer."
Clare:
Well, that kind of lines up with digital transformation, right? Yeah, because so many businesses are investing in digital channels now. That's where the demand for this is coming from. Less demand for CX perhaps, but also because it's a temporary thing. Why so much of this is contract-based, because they're outsourcing - temporarily needing to complete this transformation - whereby, they're not going to want people to stay in-house for the long term.
Natasha:
Which is super... I find that it's really odd. And then - so that's the industry itself. And then when you look at the qualifications that you need. I think if you...so one of my favorite...this was a couple of years ago because I know it's changed now. But, if you look at the job specs for places like Monzom or Spotify or Adobe, and you look at what the UX spec is, I'm just like..."That is ridiculous!"
Clare:
But, is this what I was saying with the CX profession though? The job- you could go for a Customer Experience, Manager job say, but the remit of that could be so vast.
Natasha:
Yeah! And it's ridiculous. 'We want you to have 10 plus years of experience doing this'. And it's - this wasn't even a job 10 years ago by this name, but sure! And it's like...'have a PhD, be able to use all of these tools, do all of these things...'
Clare:
The anthropologist!
Natasha:
Yeah, and I'm like, "What are you looking for? What are you asking people to do?" And it is ridiculous. And as someone who - I always keep my alerts open, because I always like to see the jobs that are out there. Because it tends to...well it's a good way to understand where you need to upskill, I think.
Clare:
It's good bell weather.
Natasha:
Yeah! And I look at... so I think really good adverts, from places like Bumble and Hinge. Bumble is always looking for Senior Researchers and I'm like, "What's happening at Bumble though? Why are you going through them so quickly?" And also big organisations like BT - BT has a great team! The lady that runs the team is ex-government, digital service. I applied for a role at the National Grid and... here's what's really interesting to your point. They're like, "We are building a new team. We are building a new digital team and we want someone to come in and help build that team." And I'm just like... "but you're offering 70K?" But that's still not enough for what you're asking us to do, in this really large organisation!
Natasha:
Imagine going into an organisation and having to spin up a User Research team. Because it's not just doing the work, right? You have to evangelize why you should be doing user research. Because you will always have someone in Customer Experience being like, "But we do that already. Here's your MPS. What are you talking about? What are they doing? What are they doing that we're not doing?" And I think that's so sad because I think the two really complement each other.
Clare:
And it's so different!
Natasha:
Yeah! And I find it really strange. For all of my comments...I think the two complement each other and it's just about finding where the two meet. And that is something I'm still working on and developing, but I'm super open to it! Especially in the places where I've worked. And in my last job, I built a really good relationship with the Customer Success Managers and the Data Analysts that were looking at that stuff. And it would be, and that would inform the work and that would inform the work that we would do, which is how it should be. And any findings I had, I always funnelled through to relevant teams, so I didn't just keep it to my specific digital strand.
Natasha:
So yeah, the state of UX is really interesting. And then add in the layer of qualifications, because there are a lot of people that have PhDs in very specific things. And they come into UX. And they often walk into roles because having a PhD, I would say nine times out of ten, means that you have a very excellent set of research skills and analysis skills. But then I met a lot of PhD people...
Clare:
With no social skills.
Natasha:
Not just the social skills, but the ability to function in a business environment.
Clare:
Yeah.
Natasha:
And I've seen that. But then you have people with those qualifications, that come in at a level, and it drives it down for the rest of us. And you look at the work they produce and you're like, "But what are you doing?"
Clare:
Yeah...you don't get a PhD in leadership when you're at uni, do you? As in actually leading people?
Natasha:
Yeah, right! And I think going back to the question you asked me about obstacles, is that I don't have a design background. So I have often-, I went through a massive thing of networking a couple of years ago, where I tried to connect with lots of different types of researchers around the world. And eight times out of ten, it was great! I met some - all women - I met some great women! But then I met a couple who when I said - they were like, "Oh, so what's your background?" I said, "Oh, you know, I used to be a librarian, I don't have a design background." You could literally see them shut down.
Clare:
Boss over.
Natasha:
And I'm just like, "Oh, I'm so sorry that I didn't do anthropology or psychology, and that I come from an information science, politics and language background, you know. So I understand how people access information. Which is ironic since we're built on a search engine industry. But no, you're fine. I didn't study anthropology!" And I think that's an interesting thing in the industry, where sometimes you have to really prove why you should be given an opportunity if you don't...and it's similar to every other industry, right? If you don't have the set parameter of what is seen as, "Oh, this means they can do the job", it can be a lot harder to get the job.
Clare:
Yeah but then that's just that box-ticking thing though, isn't it? And I know the frustration that I hear from so many women who are looking for jobs at the moment, in it being such a clearly defined set of criteria. Like you said, the X amount of experience, X qualification. And with what we do, I think it's so much more about being attuned to organisational culture, being able to listen to and tune into what's going on for humans. Like it's much more...
Natasha:
I always say, how good are you at organising your time?
Clare:
You can learn any tools though, right?
Natasha:
Yeah, but you can't learn empathy. You can't learn empathy. You can't learn how to effectively talk to stakeholders. I have seen so many people that be the thing that...
Clare:
That's usually the thing that CX professionals fail at, to be completely honest. They are just on a one-man or woman mission, to bang this drum about Customer Experience and customers. But have absolutely no idea how to engage the organisation, with a commercial view of why that is important. And the leadership and influencing abilities to be able to carry that through, to a point where change actually happens. But I'm really sorry, Natasha. I have just realized that we are way over time!
Natasha:
Ok. No, sorry, I've given you some really long answers for you to unpack.
Clare:
Oh, of course.
Natasha:
So that's on me!
Clare:
No, I was just thinking about our listeners. I was going to say, where you supposed to be somewhere? I know I've got to be somewhere in a few minutes, so let's draw this to a close. It's been amazing, I've really enjoyed it. The time literally flew by for me because it was so fun! You're super engaging. I love the fact that you've just shown up completely as yourself, and spoke as loudly as you like about what you think about stuff. And long may that continue. We need more of us standing up and saying what we think, and sharing our opinions, even if some people aren't going to agree with us, that doesn't matter!
Clare:
What we need to drive forward now is a different opinion, a different point of view. And it's only by being brave enough to talk about our diverse ranges of points of view and experiences, that we're going to be able to actually move the needle for where we've got to get to. And it has to be around the future of digital.
Natasha:
Yeah.
Clare:
Being integrated into this wider field of Customer Experience. So I think we need more collaborations.
Natasha:
Agreed!
Clare:
Can't wait for the masterclass and hopefully some real food for thought for the CX community - the more traditional CX, let's say. So is there anything you'd like to leave our listeners with? One piece of advice, or a takeaway from this conversation? What would your sentence be?
Natasha:
Um, oh gosh, you've put me on the spot. I think, for me, it would be that failure is hard at the time, but it's probably where you grow the most.
Clare:
Yes, love that! That's a great note to end on. And thank you so much, again. I've said it already, but for just turning up, being yourself, and sharing with so much honesty and vulnerability. I think you're awesome.
Natasha:
Ah, thanks, Clare. And thank you to everyone who is listening. I hope you stuck with us!
Clare:
I'm sure they did. So that's it for this week. Thank you, everybody. See you next time. Bye. Bye. That's it. We're done.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world's first online community for women in Customer Experience, please check out www.womenincx.community/membership.
Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to one of our community members from London about leveraging the alignment between Marketing and Customer Experience in B2B. See you all soon!
