Clare Muscutt talks with DeAnna Avis about Pivoting from CX to diversity and inclusion.
Episode #510 Show Notes:
Clare:
Welcome to the tenth and final episode of the fifth series of the Women in CX podcast. A series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects.
Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest. She's an award-winning coach, consultant, speaker, and global CX influencer, and was named one of the top 25 CX professionals in the world. As the Engagement Lead at award-winning diversity and inclusion consultancy, Watch This Sp_ce she turns insight into actionable strategy and works with clients who are innovating and transforming to create a positive impact. She's the mother to a beautiful toddler called Yuri and dedicates all her work to him. Please welcome to the show, CX sister, DeAnna Avis.
Clare:
Hey, DeAnna!
DeAnna:
Hi, Clare. Thank you for having me!
Clare:
You're welcome. Where are you joining us from today?
DeAnna:
I am joining you from sunny Chelmsford, Essex.
Clare:
Woot-woot for the Essex crew! I'm in Essex too. So, very much welcome to Inspiring Women in CX and welcome to all the listeners who are following the podcast and your story today too. So, I'm going to just jump straight in there with a first question, and would you like to tell our listeners a little bit more about how you found your way into the Women in CX community?
DeAnna:
Yeah, certainly. Well, I found Women in CX through LinkedIn, through your posts on LinkedIn. I can't remember exactly how you and I connected, but I was following you as an influential person on LinkedIn. And then when I left my corporate job to start my own business as a CX Consultant, I was so lonely, and so I remember reaching out to you. I literally sent you a DM and I was like, “Clare... help! Being a solopreneur is so lonely! Tell me how I join Women in CX because I need to be with other people on this journey”. And that's how it started. You know, you sent me the info on joining and I gave it a try and I was just instantly in love from the first day that I signed up. Just because the energy of it is, so thank you, the energy of it is just so uplifting and it's just really refreshing. Really refreshing!
Clare:
Yeah, and you've been pretty active, I'd say, since you joined. Do you want to share a few of the milestones that you remember with the listeners? What have you been up to in WiCX?
DeAnna:
Yeah, I feel so fortunate to have been able to work so closely with WiCX and to really be part of the community and also to feel part of the team as well. So, essentially when I joined, straightaway I had the catch-up, there was a quarterly catch-up, and then I had a catch-up with you. And there was the opportunity to lead the research project for the next phase of WiCX; designing the new proposition for the brand. And that was brilliant because it was a chance to work with CX principles on something that is in the CX space. So, it was just double awesome, because working with the most amazing kind of organisation as well! So, I feel straightaway getting to know the organisation from the inside out. And that gave me an opportunity to really know our community members, the people that we serve, and also the wider CX community and how we can help them. So yeah, I mean that was definitely one big milestone, working with the team on the research project. And through that meeting so many dozens of incredible women in the community and getting to know them, really in depth.
Clare:
Yeah, I think we were your first client technically, weren't we? Because you had just started your business.
DeAnna:
You were, you were! Thank you so much for that.
Clare:
No, you're welcome. And you've been in and presented webinars?
DeAnna:
Yes, yes. Thank you for reminding me. I did a webinar for Women in CX as well.
Clare:
Yes. Sharing your case study, wasn't it? On customer experience improvement, I remember that one!
DeAnna:
Yeah.
Clare:
And here we are today on our podcast together.
DeAnna:
Yes!
Clare:
Having got to know each other very well over that time, and yeah, just huge thanks to you for all you've contributed to our journey so far. Without the research that you did in the summer, we wouldn't be so clear in terms of what our members want and need and have moved so rapidly towards building the WiCX 2.0 platform that's now live with all our MVPs. So, thank you again! So yeah, we mentioned your case study there. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about the career journey that you've been on, and how you've ended up where you are now, which is also under the iteration of DeAnna again.
DeAnna:
Yes, yes! Certainly, in true Scorpio fashion, I keep reinventing myself practically every 24 hours! So, my CX career trajectory...I mean, I've been in CX for 13 years now and was leading CX projects at an engineering company here in Chelmsford called-, well they were called E2V and then they were bought by Teledyne, but you know, that's kind of... doesn't matter. They build fancy components that go in everything, from the Mars Rover through to cancer and radiotherapy machines, through to commercial industrial equipment. So, it was really interesting! Heavily B2B, very cross-sector and just working with super brainy people all the time. So that was really interesting. Kind of, it was a global role. So, I was leading CX projects in Asia, America, and Europe and then I got headhunted to lead the CX transformation at part of Aviva.
DeAnna:
So essentially Aviva, you know, which most people know is the largest insurer in the UK, owned their own group of repair centres. And they had this problem, which was: Aviva is the number one insurer, they've got a tremendous brand, and they owned this repair centre that was just totally not living up to the name! And it was just like, “wow, we need to do something about this, or we need to sell it”. It was that big of an issue for them. So, I thought that sounds like a nice hairy challenge and I like that! Something like a blank sheet to really create a CX strategy and to really see the impact of customer focus on an organisation. So, I went for it. I left, you know, that amazing job at ETV to go do that, and it was challenging. It took several years. You know, CX transformations don't happen from one day to the next. But it was really exciting. We just redesigned the whole brand! We did a lot of work around employee experience and redesigned the whole Customer Journey and as a result, we ended up sweeping the CX Awards. So that was super satisfying; still up there with one of the best nights of my life. Definitely up there with the worst hangover of my life!
Clare:
Yeah. That actually reminds me of when I first came across you, but I didn't know it was you until a while later. That was the same year you and I appeared on the same list together, didn't we, in the CX Stars?
DeAnna:
Yes!
Clare:
And I remember seeing your photo and thinking, “oh, she's so pretty! I wonder what she's up to”. And we never interfaced, did we until you sent me that message that one day on LinkedIn, and then later going... “Oh my God! I remember now”, in 2019 I think it was. Is that when you won the awards? 2020?
DeAnna:
Yeah, so we won our first award in 2018 and then we won a bunch of other ones, including overall in 2019.
Clare:
2019. Yeah, because that was on your profile. But yeah, you literally swept the board on that one, didn't you? So please do. Carry on, carry on.
DeAnna:
Yeah, so that was the trajectory at Solus. And then there were lots more that we did after that; working on our diversity and inclusion strategy, doing lots more work around Voice of Employee and internal culture, and then the pandemic happened. I had a baby and after returning from maternity leave, it was just this, foot hanging over the cliff moment. Do I take that leap? Because I had for years and years wanted to work as a consultant, because I really like novelty. I think you and I maybe share some similarities in the way that our brains work.
Clare:
Yes, and for anyone who's new to the podcast, and I've spoken about this many times, we have ADHD in common. Yeah, and our brains definitely do go off on the same tangents.
DeAnna:
Yes, I feel like that's an asset for what we do because we think out of the box in lots of ways! So anyways, really just seeking those new experiences and the opportunity to make a difference for more people at once, rather than in just one organisation. So, I thought, you know what, this is my opportunity. So, when maternity leave ended, I was like, this is crazy because this has been the best job I've ever had, but I'm going to say goodbye to it. So, I did and I started my own CX consultancy, Starfish CX, and that was really thanks to support from so many people in the CX community. Because when I started, even though I knew CX, I didn't know about running a business, and so I really did need support and advice on that. So, you know, support that I got from you and the Women in CX community, the solopreneurs community within Women in CX. Other people in this wider CX world who supported me, Ian Golding, very generously supported me. Like he's such a legend.
Clare:
He's such a nice guy.
DeAnna:
So humble and so pro at what he does... Adrian Swinscoe.
DeAnna:
Yeah, and then also other people who supported me...James Surridge, whom I worked with numerous times as a client of his because he's a Branding Guru and he helped me create the Starfish brand, and I'm forever grateful for that, just being able to bounce ideas off of his creative brain. So yeah, it was definitely a team effort to do that.
Clare:
Yeah. Some great allies there, right? In the guys, so I know I've told you this before, but the listeners don't know. But Ian Golding was the person whom I reached out to. I mean, I reached out to loads of people when I first left corporate in 2017, asking “how did you do this? How did you get from, you know, leaving?”
Clare:
He worked in big box retail as well, but digital retail, to being this influential and being really visible on LinkedIn and he was the only person that said, “yeah, I'm happy to share, I can help you”. And I met him in a Pret a Manger in London, and he was just so open and kind. And Adrian Swinscoe, yeah, massive props to that guy! Very similar, he helped me so much, you know, right at the start when I set out on my own whilst I was building Women in CX. He came and spoke at our conference. So yeah, there are some really generous guys out there who are supporting Women in CX and around the community too. So yeah.
DeAnna:
Yeah.
Clare:
Just emphasising those shout-outs.
DeAnna:
Yeah, definitely! And I think sometimes it can feel really scary to reach out to people because when I first left it felt really scary to even write to them. Because they're these big names and I was not sure whether they would even respond, but I guess it just takes that, you know, effort ...
Clare:
Leap of faith...
DeAnna:
Yeah. Takes that leap of faith. Yeah.
Clare:
Yeah! And I guess part of the reason I ended up starting Women in CX was remembering how hard it was to find help at the start. So many people weren't interested because, I guess, it was potentially introducing a competitor into the landscape. And I think what we've managed to fashion in Women in CX, with the Solopreneurs Club, is actually collaboration over competition being the route to collective success. So many women are referring one another for work they can't do, they're collaborating together and winning big contracts as a group. They're able to become international by being part of a community. So, one of our members has got a pitch for a client in Bahrain. She lives in Canada. She's reached out to women that are in the Middle East from our community. They're now in with a really good shot of winning it.
Clare:
So, I think, yeah, we've made massive progress, particularly in that solopreneurs, building our own businesses, because we've stopped thinking about competition and started thinking about collaboration. And everybody's winning as a result of supporting one another! I love logging into LinkedIn now because I never used to see any of the women being particularly visible apart from the ones in America. I kind of was on my own for a while and now I see women having the confidence to post, but also seeing all the other solopreneurs backing their content and helping with their organic reach. Whereas they used to feel a lot more competitive in terms of who was dominating the conversations. And the chaps out there sometimes, I'm just going to say it how it is, criticising one another's content and particularly the women would be getting shot down on LinkedIn if they said something. I remember there was a guy that had this phase of just saying, “this is banal”, commenting on people's posts. And yeah, just seeing the increase in positivity, I think that's come from this group of women supporting one another. So yeah. Nice one to raise.
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Clare:
But yeah, but now you've just got an amazing new job, right? That helps you balance that desire to do multiple things. Having, well, he's not a baby anymore now is he, he’s a toddler! The challenges that come with motherhood and still being able to do your CX practice, and I don't think you mentioned you are also a WiCX Approved Coach! You've got another business there. So, tell us about your coaching and your new job.
DeAnna:
Yes, yes, of course! So, when I left corporate in March of 2022, I thought, what am I going to do with my time whilst I'm ramping my business up? And I thought I am going to focus on completely upskilling myself as a coach. Because I had already been practising as a coach within Solus and leading leadership development programs. But I wanted to get ICF accredited because that's what's globally recognised. So, I did my ICF coach training and launched my coaching business alongside my CX stuff and that's really come to the floor because I'm super passionate about it. And so, I can't even remember how the WiCX-approved coaches came about. It's just this beautiful synchronicity that it was there at this time that I was ready to launch. And so together with the other coaches, we are now there to support other Women in CX who are on this journey. Because, I mean, it's just so helpful to have other people to bounce things off of. And so that's awesome to be able to support the community in that way as well.
Clare:
Yeah, totally! And your coaching fuses a few different methodologies, doesn't it?
DeAnna:
Yeah, I've really...you know what, one of the things that really annoys me about coaching is everyone's like, 'you need to pick a niche'. So, you've got to be super specific. Like 'I'm a... Oh gosh, such-such a coach'. And I really do not like niching because I feel people are whole people; no one in themselves is a two-dimensional thing. And if you're dealing with any aspect of life, all of the other aspects of life are going to have an effect on that. Even if you're just saying, you know, I'm just an executive coach, the stuff that's going on in your relationship and your health and your finances and your wellbeing, everything is affecting that. So, I don't really believe in niching. I'm really passionate about taking a view of the whole person. And I think, also part of my training as a counsellor comes into it as well, I don't think I'd mentioned that...
Clare:
No, I don't think you did!
DeAnna:
This is me and my million personalities- my million ADHD personalities running off and doing 10,000 things. Because really my big, big, big dream is one day - hopefully soon because I've applied for an MA and I'm just waiting for the results to come back of the application, I think I'll get in because I've, anyways, tangent! Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you!
DeAnna:
So, I really want to qualify as a counsellor. And I've done counselling training; there are just two more years to fully qualify. And so, when I go back in September, I'll actually start to see people and get my clinical hours. So, when I say my coaching is integrative, it's because I'm blending my counselling experience, my executive coaching, and life coaching. I also did recovery coaching, which is about, you know, recovery from basically anything. Quite often it starts with addiction, but then when you look at addiction recovery, it's what's caused that addiction? What's behind that? The family systems, the social situation, the trauma, the ... everything. So, all of that comes into it. So yeah.
Clare:
I love it! And yeah, absolutely, it's all interconnected isn't it, everything? And how successful, in inverted commas, we are in life. I know for me personally, I was seen as someone who is hugely successful in my career, while my personal life was in tatters! So, I was never going to achieve true success or happiness, without being able to address the other areas of my life that perhaps were less visible to others. So yeah, I think that integrative healing approach to being able to pinpoint 'where are things coming out in my life that are expressing that perhaps there may be something I need to look at?'. But it's probably not in that box that you're experiencing the problem and it's perhaps in the past or it's perhaps, in terms of recovering from trauma, or recognising the triggers that might make you respond to situations. I know you and I have so many conversations about this kind of thing and I'm going to come back to that in a second. But you are now working this shiny new job, we keep going off on these ADHD girl tangents and never getting to the end of the story! So, what are you doing now? Tell us what you're doing.
DeAnna:
Yeah! So, what I'm doing now, I'm absolutely psyched, because as of January, literally January 4th, I started a new job at Watch This Sp_ce! And they are an award-winning diversity and inclusion consultancy that I have been keeping my eye on for a while now. For a few reasons. I used to work with Mo, one of the co-founders back when I was at my engineering job. So, way, way, way back in my first CX job, Mo and I worked together, and we even worked in Hong Kong together and stuff, so I know already that it's built on solid foundations. And then just seeing what they were doing and being like, 'wow, I really wish that I was doing something in the D&I space' because I'm so passionate about it because I've had so many experiences myself of like D&I gone wrong or just not being done at all.
DeAnna:
Just in terms of the culture shock, coming from such a multicultural place as California to Essex, which is not the most diverse place. Yeah. So anyways, I was a mega fan girl of Watch This Sp_ce for ages. Then I spoke at their conference in September and gave a talk about neurodiversity and mental health. Where I was really open about stuff I'd not spoken about publicly anywhere. And then this job opportunity came up and it's perfect, you know, it's flexible. I feel because it's a start-up, I still feel very much like it’s mine in a way. You know, obviously not like it’s mine, but just empowered in the same way as when I was running my own. Because there's that room to create to really influence the way things are done.
Clare:
Oh, that's perfect, isn't it? But it sounds very exciting, and it looks like an amazing company to work for. So, I'm very much looking forward to watching what happens with Watch This Sp_ce. So, there are so many things that we've talked about already in terms of this career path that you've charted alongside following multiple personal interests. DeAnna didn't even mention that she used to be in a mariachi band!
Clare:
And then, you know, kind of finding your way here to Women in CX and going through this really transformational journey for yourself. In terms of really figuring out what you want, and going after it, and finding these amazing opportunities that completely match what you stand for, and your values and give you that flexibility to be more than one person. With your ADHD personality, it's to be able to be an awesome mum to a toddler, a consultant that can do flexible work if she wishes, a coach to clients as another part of your business, as well as part-time working for this really awesome company that aligns with your values! But there must have been some challenges or barriers you've overcome to get to this point of finding balance as a whole person in your career as well. What would you say the biggest barrier or challenge you've overcome has been?
DeAnna:
Definitely! I mean, I think the biggest challenge for me, and I think probably a lot of people will relate, has been just trauma and mental health. Because really, I spent so long as a very high-functioning person. And I felt, I think that makes imposter syndrome worse, right? Because you're performing, you're getting recognitions, you're getting promotions, et cetera. And inside you're feeling completely different. And like you mentioned before about that disconnect between the personal life and professional life. For ages, my professional life was wonderful and everything else was just hanging on by a thread. And I think I convinced myself that was okay because I was somehow like, “you know, oh look, I'm fine because look, I'm doing all of this!” and it kind of took me falling on my a** few times, mentally, to realise, “wait, I can't just run on fumes all the time!”
DeAnna:
...I need to actually be kind to myself, and I need to look at, why I have this pattern of running myself into the ground and putting everyone else first and putting what everyone else thinks of me first and then just, I'm an afterthought. So, that's something that's been a barrier because it was something that, on the one hand, helped my career, but also held me back. It became counterproductive. And so, I think the antidote to that is really authenticity and vulnerability and that it's okay to be who you are and it's okay to not be made of steel and, you know, to have feelings. The full range of feelings! We're not always perfect, perfect is impossible.
Clare:
Yeah. I'm hearing Brene Brown there. Yeah, vulnerability and authenticity. And it's so hard, isn't it, sometimes to stand there in your own truth and so much of what you said resonated with me about, kind of naturally falling more into people-pleasing behaviours, really lose boundaries that compromise me at the benefit of everybody else or the rest of the world. Seeing the impact that certain choices in other areas of my life were having on my health and well-being. But as you said, still thinking, “well, I'm okay because look at the job that I've got, look at the promotion I recently got or the award that I just won” and then hitting this point, as you said falling on you a** from a mental health point of view and going, “well, none of that feels true to me.”
Clare:
...I've started to not see that version of whom people think I am, doesn't exist to me anymore either. So, I always have so much admiration and respect for you, for having gone on that journey of your own authenticity. And confidently just standing out there and going, “this is me and I'm going to do my thing and to hell with what anyone else says”. You know, about the niche as the example, you know, how to niche down what, I've got too many interests, I'm not going to niche! I think it's amazing. So, you know, we talked a lot here about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Also, you know, this continuous evolution of oneself to continue to iterate towards becoming more of who we are, rather than more of what someone else or others might expect us to be. But I just wanted to ask you a little bit more about what you touched on, having moved from California to the UK and your experience of being an immigrant yourself, in terms of DEI. How has that affected you and the reason that you are moving away, not even moving away from CX but moving into this space of combining those things together?
DeAnna:
Yeah, totally! The way it affected me was, you know what I think when I first got here, I didn't have any reference points. So, it's just like, okay, this is all different. So, I guess this is just how things are. But kind of, at the first company that I worked at here, it was very classist, sexist, right-wing, homophobic, just all of the bad things! And so, I think, I mean it rubbed me the wrong way. But I guess it really got personal because of the nature of the projects we worked on, there was lots of security clearance required. So, some kind of xenophobia was tied up in policy as in, “oh, we can't let you see this because you're a foreigner” and there used to be this lady that I worked with, and she would put her hands over her computer screen when I walked by because she didn't want me to see.
DeAnna:
And I was like, “wow, that is making me feel really bad, that is not okay” and just lots of stuff. I was called into a meeting and again, orchestrated by this lady, and again in that meeting called a foreigner. One quite senior person there actually said, “we have to be careful what we say in this meeting because there's a foreigner present” and he said that as if I wasn't sitting right next to him. And so, I was literally crying in that meeting, and no one stood up for me. No one, it was horrible. And just lots of things; people complaining because we had quite a diverse workforce. So, the operators in the engineering company were more diverse than the leadership.
DeAnna:
That's quite often the case. You'll see more diversity further down the food chain and then as it goes up it gets more homogeneous. And people would complain about people speaking languages other than English. And that, I mean, you know, I'm Mexican American, I actually spoke Spanish before I spoke English, and just all of that stuff I find so harmful because it is harmful. And because people do face discrimination for, I mean it's just unacceptable. It just brought back lots of trauma from just being in California and, probably lots of people have seen Americans behaving badly and wearing the Donald Trump hats and saying, “we're in America now speak English” and stuff like that. And that stuff happens! That's happened to us in the line trying to order fast food in peace and people are shouting at us.
DeAnna:
But I think, I did have, like where just, everything changed, like a big paradigm shift in the UK. And that was, do you remember the 7/7 bombings? Now that's going back way, way, way long time, but everything was super tense after that. And I remember a few days after that walking through the park at lunchtime, and I was on my own, there was no one else there. And this one guy was approaching me, and he is really angry, and he just shouts at me “foreigner!” and I can practically feel the froth from his mouth hitting me. He's just so angry. And I was like, what the hell? So, I just started running. I literally just ran because he was unhinged and that for me was heartbreaking because up until that point, I thought, I'm foreign because I have an accent and people can hear that I'm not from here. But at that point, I hadn't opened my mouth, and I realised I was just being judged on how I looked and being judged that I didn't belong here. And I was like “sh*t!”, sorry to swear on this podcast.
Clare:
No! It's fine, it's fine, it's fine.
DeAnna:
I was just, “is that what everybody thinks of me?” I've been doing my best since I got here; three years ago, to assimilate, to learn the culture here, to do my best to be a good immigrant and it's still not enough. I still don't fit, and something in me changed forever that day because I just realised that it's, I don't even know how to put this into words...
Clare:
Injustice.
DeAnna:
Yeah. So, I carried that seed of rage inside of me, that still is there. A little fire burning because I think, there's an identity problem here, where there are certain types of people who are seen as belonging as British or as English. And that is not okay, because I mean, I have British citizenship. Okay, I don't have a British accent, but I have as much of a right to be here as anyone else. And so, I really think there are fundamental identity issues in this country that need to be worked on because we are multicultural. People just need to accept that we do not live in the stone age.
Clare:
No. And embrace that diversity because actually with diversity comes so many amazing things. Right?
DeAnna:
Yeah. So much! And just to go back to your other point because you asked about blending CX and diversity and inclusion and I tried to do that in the last role that I was in. But I still found that organisationally they were so split. Diversity and inclusion were seen as “that belongs to the people function, CX belongs to...wherever CX is”, you know, they always move CX, but they were two separate things. And so, I was the CX person who was the only one carrying the torch for D&I, because no one else was doing it. And it was kind of like they let me do it because no one else was doing it. But it's just, okay, this is fundamentally, we're missing something here because this is something so important. And if CX is all about people, how are we missing this aspect of looking at whom we're actually serving?
Clare:
Yeah. And I think it's the people we serve, right? So, I think your example of working in a corporate organisation, I've been here, where most of the leadership are white, middle-aged men and they are not reflective of the people that are employed on the frontline. You know, the more multi-site type organisations, the more diversity there seems to be in the operational layer. But also reflective of Britain and the customers we serve. And I think, you know, organisations who are talking DEI, typically there's like the HR aspect of it isn't there, of how do we get better representation in leadership and management, how do we avoid inequalities like some of the stuff that's in the press at the moment about paternal leave? And not creating barriers for women to return to work and flexible working, having inclusive working environments from a physical or disabilities perspective.
Clare:
And that can only be a great thing, can't it? But it's coming up against the culture, whereas you said, there are these huge problems that the public or the corporate organisation, the individuals within it, carrying so much bias but also trying to change that. And I think Customer Experience is a really great focal point for being able to create change through the way we design things. So, whether that's from a physical inclusion point of view in environments, or a digital point of view in terms of accessibility, or from a people and culture perspective about helping frontline employees- or every layer of employee- to understand the differences that exist within cultures, for example. But yeah, it's not that particularly well understood, and we talked this week, because I know you did a presentation today, didn't you, about inclusive CX, about the power of being able to build inclusive design tools that organizations can use when they're creating products and services and experiences themselves. And I think CX professionals, with a little bit of knowledge and insight around inclusion, can really help to create change on both the customer and employee side.
Clare:
Yeah, I'm really excited actually. We've got Christine Hemphill coming into the community, she's already a member, but joining us in March for a webinar specifically about what are the kind of five key things that if every CX professional could think about these within their own practice, how much of the world we could change along the way. So, I'm completely with you.
DeAnna:
That's going to be amazing. I love Christine's work! I saw one of her workshops at a CX conference last year and she is a trailblazer in CX. She was the first person I saw who just consciously blended the two and I was like, “hallelujah, it can be done! We can blend those two things.” So we just need more and more because really all CX should be consciously inclusive CX!
Clare:
Yeah, absolutely! And we can't really say we're thinking about human-centeredness if we're not thinking about all shapes, sizes, and ranges of humans within that. So yeah, kind of leading on from that really, to kind of round things off a little, is just to think about how many different examples you've given us here about having made your own personal and professional transformations. It sounds like you're never going to be done; you're going to keep moving in the direction that your authentic self told you to go. But what would you say to our listeners, in terms of advice, for reinventing oneself, if that feels like something they would like to do?
DeAnna:
Yeah, I mean I really, I think in terms of a work context, one thing that really helped me, was embracing the concept of being an intrapreneur. So basically, because so often we think, “oh, I really want that job, but you know, there's not that vacancy there or whatever” and being an entrepreneur is being like, “Okay, what do I want my job to be? How can I find ways to do that? You know, what resources do I need? What people do I need?” and just going out there and doing it. So, a lot of my career trajectory was through entrepreneurship and kind of creating that vision and just stepping into it. So, I think just kind of be gutsy, and go for it. Don't ask for permission to do what you want if you know that it's the right thing to do. Just have faith in your vision and I think that applies personally as well.
DeAnna:
So much of it is also about being able to let go of stuff because we have to just, hermit crabs outgrow their shells! Certain phases in life will teach us certain things and then we have to let go to let other things in. So yeah, I'm just a big fan of like consciously deciding, what am I going to hold on to? What am I embracing? Because you cannot carry everything around like a hermit crab, carrying around like 10,000 houses. You need to give yourself space to grow.
Clare:
Absolutely! Well hear-hear to that. And that really resonates with me about, on the business side, being an intrapreneur when it came to CX. And having obviously moved on and become an entrepreneur, I think that's why so many of us do that and end up breaking out into the freelance consulting world as well. Because we have that within us; that entrepreneurship and being able to start and create our own businesses off the back of that. It seems to be a natural step for CX professionals, particularly Women in CX. So, that's all we've got time for I'm afraid. It's been so fun to have you on the show today. Thank you!
DeAnna:
Thank you so much for having me. It's flown by!
Clare:
You're welcome. You're welcome! What would be your one top takeaway that you'd like to leave our listeners with from this conversation?
DeAnna:
My takeaway would be, it's going to sound so cheesy, but it's so important. Just to be true to yourself. If you feel that in work, you're not able to bring your full self to that, that doesn't mean that you need to change. That's probably a sign that the environment needs to change. So, I would say, either have the gumption to go out there and try and influence it or if you can't, realise that you're made for a bigger pot and go find that bigger pot where you can flourish!
Clare:
Oh, I love that analogy about the flower, isn't it? You move it into the sunshine, or you change the soil, you don't change the plant!
Clare:
Amazing! Well, thank you so much. As I said, it's been wonderful to host you on the Women in CX podcast. It's been amazing to have you in our community and I can't wait to continue to collaborate with you in the future.
DeAnna:
Likewise, thank you and I look forward to meeting so many of you. Thank you for listening.
Clare:
Yes, and thank you to everyone for listening along at home as well. We'll see you all next time. Bye for now. Bye
DeAnna:
Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me Clare Muscutt. If you're enjoying the show, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world's first online community for women in Customer Experience, please check out womenincx.community. That's it for series five, but we'll be back real soon sharing even more inspiring CX stories from members of the WiCX community in series six. See you soon!
