Clare Muscutt talks with Naima Mwina Mwawasi about breaking gender stereotypes, divorce and CX in Kenya.
Episode #407 Show Notes
Clare:
Welcome to the 7th episode of the 4th series of the women in CX podcast, a series dedicated to ‘real talk’ conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, re-live the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects. I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt, and in today’s episode, I will be talking to one of our community members, a seriously wonderful woman in CX, this time from Kenya.
Let me introduce you to today’s inspiring guest. She has over 18 years of experience in CX, starting out on the front line and going on to spend 15 years with Emirates Airlines travelling the world in various roles before returning to Kenya in 2018 with a personal mission to elevate CX in the region. She founded her own consulting practice 3 years ago and now works with a range of clients across multiple sectors helping them to transform customer and employee experiences. Please welcome to the show, CX sister, Naima Mwawasi.
Clare:
Hi, Naima.
Naima:
Hi Clare. How are you?
Clare:
I'm wonderful. How are you today?
Naima:
I'm good. It's afternoon here. It's actually evening.
Clare:
Whereabouts in the world are you?
Naima:
I'm in Kenya, Nairobi. I'm based in Nairobi.
Clare:
Well, welcome to the Women in CX podcast.
Naima:
Thanks, Clare. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Clare:
And welcome to everybody that's listening along as well. So, let's just dive right in there then. And I'm sure the audience is really curious to find out more about your career journey. How exactly did you get into CX and end up where you are today?
Naima:
Alright. Clare, as we've spoken before, I know you, I worked for Emirates airline for 16 years. My career in Emirates started in 2002 to 2016 and then I came back to Kenya in 2018 and founded Content CX Consulting, which I am a consultant, Customer Experience Consultant until now and of course the Managing Director of Content CX, cause I'm a sole proprietor in the organisation. Now, let's talk about the CX, how I got into CX.
Clare:
Yeah. Tell us more about the Emirate days.
Naima:
I know. Yeah. So, yes. I would always say that Emirates is the one that shaped me into Customer Experience. Why? Because first of all, Emirates is known as one of the largest organisations, one of the biggest organisations and the customer experience is amazing. Yeah. I'm sure you've flown with Emirates...
Clare:
I have.
Naima:
Yes. And then of course, my duty in Emirates, entail traveling a lot and through the world. I have travelled in all the six continents. I've seen different cultures, you know, how different, you know, well travelling and seeing how Customer Experience is, how service delivery is in different countries. So, yeah. I remember coming back to Kenya, visiting Kenya a couple of times and really saying how Kenya is and I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, no. We are really way behind in service delivery. So, yes. So, I started thinking about it. It was something that I just started thinking about it and I think my journey started in 2014. So, I just started thinking about how can I, you know, help Kenya get to that service level in terms of service delivery. So, yes. I always give this story.
Naima:
I went to a restaurant and the way I was served, it was not acceptable at all on all levels. And that's when I started thinking about that, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we need to do something. Something needs to change. Something needs to change, comparing what service I get there and where I come back to Kenya. In the banking industry as well, in the banks, how do they serve the customer? It was really challenging for me to even get something done. How is it in even the government offices as well to buy government is one of the really best customer services. In fact, they actually have a ministry called, Ministry of Happiness, you know? So yeah, so government offices in Kenya are just way below the standards at that time, but they are improving right now because of technology as well that has come up.
Naima:
Yeah. So, looking at that and with the skills that I had, with the knowledge that I had, with the experience that I had, putting that together. So, I wanted to come back to Kenya and get something to do. And of course, thought about Content CX. So, the general of Content CX Consulting started in 2017 when I started just having research, doing a lot of research in CX cause that was my passion. I saw that was my passion dealing with relationship management in terms of customers and all that. So yes, came back in 2018. I can say it's been successful. Of course, Corona came in and things were really low, but of course it has been very successful and I'm actually really happy to see that even in Kenya, there are a lot of people who have come up and advocating for CX and a lot of CX enthusiasm. I met a lot of them as well. And yeah, the journey is we keep on moving in terms of the CX in Kenya. And I'm proud to say that I'm part of that movement. I'm part of that, making sure that Kenya we are in that level. Yes.
Clare:
Yeah. I think we had three women from Kenya at our intro event this morning and we've got a few ladies haven't we now from your region joining.
Naima:
That's nice.
Clare:
Yeah. So there's definitely demand for Customer Experience Professionals over there, for sure. It sounds like anyway. But tell me a bit more about that kind of the journey on the frontline then. So you were flying around the world as an Air Hostess, cabin crew, sorry.
Naima:
Yes. I was flying as the cabin crew. Yeah. And yeah. So, with majority of cabin crew of course with Emirates, when you join, you start from serving in economy class and then moving to business class, you know, now you get the business people and then our first class is all the leisure and you know, the top, creme de la creme, I would say, you know, meeting celebrities, meeting very big officials. Yes. A lot of different fellow celebrities, all really fun. So, VIP as well. So, dealing with VIPs and all that. Yeah. So yes, my career journey in Emirates was really interesting because I think it takes you through different levels, you know, from serving in economy, different levels of people and to the VIPs in first class. And also again, I did some trainings, a lot of trainings. We did a lot of trainings, Emirates is all about training, training, training. So yes, when I became a Purser, I was a Purser, which is an Inflight Manager, for eight years. I did some trainings. I became a trainer as well. So I used to train the junior staff, especially the ones who newly, freshly joined. Yes. So I was part of them just making sure that they get to the standards that we wanted.
Clare:
And it was so fascinating when you came and delivered your case study in the community last week, wasn't it? Just to understand that kind of connection between like products, as in the inflight experience, the seat, the different classes, the food, the brand and, advertising and marketing and then people and process, how that all kind connected together to create this kind of seamless, unique experience. That is, that is in fact world class. So, yeah, fascinating. I always wondered what it would be like if I'd have had any other kind of career interests at an earlier stage in my career. I always wondered what it would be like to go and fly around the world as part of cabin crew. Do you get to enjoy yourself or is it quite hard work moving around so much, do you get to rest in nice places?
Naima:
Of course. It was my best times, you know, honestly. I enjoyed myself in 16 years and I'll tell you, it is living large, you know, you're not paying for anything, you're paid for, it's like a holiday being paid, you know? So, of course, travelling the world. When I joined actually the first years when I joined, we used to stay in a place, like I would fly to New York and stay for five days, you know, I fly to Japan and stay for four days, you know, but now when, you know, in 2008, when things became very busy, the airline industry became very busy. So we used to do only 24 hours, but here we are cabin crew, you know, flying and sleeping in the best hotels, five class, five star hotels, that's where we used to sleep.
Naima:
And of course you're given allowances, so those allowance you would go out, go and see all, do all the adventures that you wanted, go to any places that you wanted. Of course. And of course, keeping it more professional in terms of making sure that you, of course you are working, but also having fun. It was really interesting. I do miss flying. I do miss flying a lot. Yeah. But it was time for me to leave. Cause I really wanted to just make sure that my career grows in a different level. The times in life that reaches and you're like, I need to move to another level, you know?
Clare:
So, kind of leading on from that then, so this kind of life of adventure that you created, you know, that 'she loves adventure'. I do too.
Clare:
But what was one challenge that you overcame to become the woman that you are today and how is that connected with this life of adventure? I'm intrigued.
Naima:
Oh my God. Okay. You know, everybody has a story in life, you know, some difficult, some very deep, I would say I come from a very humble beginning and was brought up by my mum and my dad and seeing my mum and my dad living together, you know, growing up. And I saw my dad, my mum is a career woman. She has always been a career woman, she's 81 this year, you know, I know yeah. My dad passed away about 10 years ago. Yeah. So yeah, so my mum was a career woman. My dad really supported my mum in her career, you know, and just let her be, you know, and I really admire that, you know? So moving, growing up saying that, you know, I wasn't the smartest kid in school. I would say
Clare:
Me neither, me neither.
Naima:
I wasn't the smartest kid in school or let me rephrase it. I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but I was smart, you know? But, I was very good at mathematics, so calculations, I was very good. So, my dad believed that I'm actually, I can be a banker or an accountant, you know, so I finished my A levels and, we call it eight four four here, but in the UK it's A Levels. So, I finished my A Levels, joined the university to study Accounting. So, I did Accounting the first one year, the second year, I fell in love...
Clare:
Not with accounting. I take it. You didn't fall in love with that.
Naima:
No, no, no. I fell in love with a man. Yes. And unfortunately I got diverted and of course coming from some, you know, societal, some societal and cultures in Kenya and basically the Muslim world as well. Yeah. So I actually dropped my school and got married. So, a very young age.
Clare:
Yeah.
Naima:
Yes, at the age of 21.
Clare:
21. Wow. That's so young.
Naima:
I know, at the age of 12. Yeah, of course life wasn't that easy because I wasn't working. And then one day, when I was 22, bumped into this advert, Emirates advert and I just said, let me give you a try. And I did. And they took me actually, I went for the interview, they took me. So it was a bit of a challenge. Should I moving from Kenya now to Dubai? And I'm married, remember. But yeah, we were young, both with my ex-husband, really excited, so we moved to Dubai together. So yeah. So going through that, you know, flying and being married, you know, you're never home. You're always traveling. It brought a lot of friction into my marriage. Yeah. So it got to a point 5 years later or around about six years later, I had to make that hard decision, you know, and my decisions was purely driven by how my mum and my dad lived their life, you know?
Naima:
So, I was thinking about how my dad supported my mum in her career, it got to a point, my mum was one of the person, she was earning more than my dad, you know, and still my dad was there like a man supporting my mother, you know, so really thinking about that. And here I am trying to, you know, break my dreams to be with this man. So yeah. So apart from that, there were also a lot of other things that happened, but that was the major thing. I was supposed to move back to Kenya and just being a housewife, you know, and that was basically it, uh, that was the condition.
Clare:
Wow. So he was expecting you to stop travelling, come back to Kenya and just be a housewife and not work anymore.
Naima:
Exactly. Yeah. So I had to make that hard decision. Of course I involved my mum. I phoned my sisters and yeah. There was a lot of support from my family and they made that had decision. So, I divorced my ex-husband. It was two years after that. It was two years of a lot of, you know, going through, everybody who was going through a divorce would tell you, it is not easy. You know, breakups are not easy. So, yeah. So it was a lot of counselling, you know, I would say I went into a bit of a depression. Yeah. So, it wasn't easy. So, for two years, but I had a lot of counselling with my manager as well. I had some very good support for my immediate manager in Emirates, so she really supported me.
Naima:
Yeah, so I came out of it, I get emotional sometimes when I talk about it, but yeah. So yeah, so I came out of it and yeah, I went back to school, you know, so I went, did my undergrad. I finished my undergrad four years down the line. Then I was like, oh, I've done it. You know? So yes. Went again. I did my masters, I finished my masters. So yeah. So I was really proud of myself and I was growing, I was learning, I was seeing new things and feeling good about myself, you know, about life in general, you know, coming from where I came from and then now being where I am. And this is what I always say, I wish my dad was alive then to see how I have grown. Cause he wasn't a happy man when I dropped out of school. Of course. Yeah. So, yes. So that really shaped me. I think it was an experience that I always say that I'm glad I did it, you know? And I would, if given that opportunity, I would never ever think twice again. I would do it again. So being with a partner or a husband, at least who supports your dream, your husband, who supports your career as a husband who supports you in that? That's very important in life.
Clare:
Yeah. I guess that at 21 though, when you got married and you fell in love, you just don't know that much about the world, do you? I think that looking back now, at 21, I thought I knew it all and some of the decisions I made, I think God, if I could only go back and tell myself and decisions that I made around guys and what I put up with and stuff. But this kind of whole concept of love when you're that young can be very distracting, can't it?
Naima:
Very, and derail you completely!
Clare:
And send you massively off track.
Naima:
I always like, I mentor young girls. I actually also used to mentor a lot of young girls in Emirates and I mentor young girls as well here in Kenya. And I always keep on telling them, you know what, don't be fooled, love will always be there. You know? So, focus on your career. I always say, and a lot of, I'm sure a lot of women in CX here, maybe some of them have gone through that. Some of them are still young going through that, some of them are raising goals, you know? So, I think it's very important that we make sure that our girls know that careers will always be, you know, I always say marriage, children, are external factors. You know, kids will also grow, you know, when you get married, have kids, kids will also grow. And then what? What is left with you? You know? So building your career is very, very important.
Clare:
So much of that resonates with me. I've never been married and I'm single currently. But I've done absolutely everything that I wanted in my life, myself and I built my own financial stability. I don't have to rely on anybody
Naima:
On anyone.
Clare:
No. So there's kind of no need there. But, at the same time I do feel some pressure I suppose now I've just turned 40 to be thinking, if I did want that more traditional family, you know, to have children myself, to get married, that kind of thing, like this impending sense of time running out to do that. But that pressure still wouldn't make me compromise on, like you say, you know, knowing that if I was with somebody, they'd have to support me in my career. I wouldn't just stop it all to do what they wanted me to do. But I'm just like, I think, you know what you said there, your dad would absolutely be so proud that you went back and you achieved all of your own dreams and you know, you're running this fantastic business now. So, yeah. I'm super proud of you and that's a really inspiring story and absolutely agree. You know, the role that we have in mentoring young girls or younger women, because I really wish I'd had somebody that could have been a mentor to me.
Clare:
I didn't. I just went off and made all these crazy mistakes and decisions that took me a while, like a long time to recover from. So, it's also really heartening to hear that you've kind of kept that network where you are now. And does culture play a part in kind of traditional gender roles and marriage and the expectations of young girls that you mentor?
Naima:
Yeah. It does. Especially in Kenya, you know, the African culture is a very strong culture. Yeah, there's a lot of judgment, you know. Like right now, yes. I'm not married. I don't have kids, you know, and I'm 43.
Clare:
No way! You do not look 43.
Naima:
I know. So, people meet you and look at you like, oh my God, what went wrong? You're a divorcee, so what went wrong? You don't have kids at 43, so what went wrong? They always think that maybe you do have a problem or maybe something. So there's a lot of that. I remember when I divorced and, you know, my mum, she has this habit in her house, all the pictures of her kids And on some of the pictures that will be there is like my sister and her husband, me and my husband, my brother with a wife and all, you know, so when I divorced, when I kept on going home, I still saw, for almost three years. I kept seeing my picture of my ex-husband at my mum's house. And I kept like, I go and just get it out.
Naima:
And then my brother would call me like, oh yeah, she put it back again. You know? So it's just societal, you know, like, divorce shouldn't be happening, you know, in our community especially, it shouldn't be happening. So, like what went wrong, you know? And of course there's always a lot of judgmental in terms of it's the woman who makes the home. So if it breaks, it's the woman. So, there's a lot of judgment. So, I had to deal with that in terms of family relatives and all that, but yeah, I overcame it.
Clare:
It's even more amazing with the cultural aspect of it because I guess I'm not subjected to any of that.
Naima:
Exactly.
Clare:
There isn't an expectation, culturally or based on religion, of what I'm supposed to do as a woman, but I still encounter the same reaction.
Naima:
Of course.
Clare:
People always assume that I'm married with kids and when I tell them I'm not, and they know how old I am, I get this kind of like, oh, poor you look. What went wrong? And I'm like, this is my choice.
Naima:
I know, marriage is not a goal.
Clare:
But I think it's a universal kind of negative thing for women. Yeah, and not to conform to gender roles, people have some kind of negative feeling towards the life choices that women who decide not to follow that traditional path make.
Clare:
Yeah. But, we're two kick-ass business owners who are slaying our lives and loving every moment of it. And we don't have anyone that we have to be beholden to. I think that's definitely an advantage.
Clare:
So, that was a brilliant story. Thank you so much for sharing, that was so inspiring. I honestly, I feel like I'm welling up with emotion in response to it because I identify so much with what you're saying too. And it is truly a story of courage. But thinking a little bit about kind of Kenya and CX then just to kind of finish off, we can't have the Inspiring Women in CX podcast without talking about a little bit of Customer Experience.
Clare:
I know you and I have had conversations previously within the community, you know, with Mandisa and kind of WiCX Africa and the kind of specific challenges that developing countries in Africa are facing when it comes to Customer Experience. I just think it would be really interesting for our listeners to hear a little bit more about what life is like in Kenya, what's going on and what's kind of creating those challenges and opportunities in Customer Experience there.
Naima:
OK. So like I said earlier, Customer Experience was really viewed as just a soft skill to many organisations. I remember then of course growing up, even in not even growing up, I would say about 20 years ago, 15 years ago, very, very, small organisations. There was not much competition in Kenya. Yeah. Kenya being, I would say, a developing country, you know, a lot of growth in the last 20 years, there's been a lot of growth, you know? So, we've seen a lot of multinational organisations coming in. Yeah. There has been tremendous economic growth, you know, demand, customers demand as well, has really, really grown, you know, so yes. And customers are aware now, you know, consumers are aware now, you know, people have travelled remember, people are exposed.
Clare:
Like you did and you came back.
Naima:
Yes, you know, growing up when someone used to travel and it's just very few people and we'll all go to the airport and wave with that person, you know, and now, you know, travelling has become just like just going and coming back, you know? So people are well travelled in Kenya now, you know, so they've seen the difference out there. So, yeah. So there has been a lot of competition, multinational organisations have come in demanding, you know, that return on investment and how do they compete with each other. So, there's a lot of banks, even international banks coming in, Pan-African banks coming in, you know, not just having the local banks now. We have telecommunications, a lot of people have partnered with multinational organisations, international organisations. So, the demand has really grown. So, how do they become differentiators in the markets? You know, so yes, organisations have seen a lot in terms of the importance of CX, you know, coming back to Kenya in 2018 and founding Content CX. So, of course I came up with all this profile and all this strategy on how to help clients in terms of achieving their customer-centric culture in the organisation. It wasn't easy to teach for clients because the first thing they'll tell you, oh, train my staff. You know?
Clare:
So, still in that old mindset of soft skills.
Naima:
Yeah. Train my staff. Especially, you're coming from Emirates, train my staff, you know? Yeah. But yeah, of course. Now we've seen a lot, a lot, and of course there's a lot of campaigns that have come in, a lot of, webinars that are happening, even with Women in CX, you know, you know, it's been advocated here now in Kenya. We are doing that as well. You know, so yeah. So organisations now have seen the need to actually have a CX department in the organisation, you know, that comes up with actually a CX strategy that is customer centred, you know, so yes. In terms of how do they brand themselves, you know, how do they do their learning and development in terms of, you know, creating that culture of customer centricity? How do they, you know, put technology, like we were talking earlier, you know, the technology in the developing countries, everything has just come like really everything is bombarding us with everything.
Naima:
Technology has just come up and all that. So, how do we use that technology to ensure that we are customer centric? How do we even work in our internal processes? How do we align different departments to be able to achieve that customer centricity? So, yes, with the growth, economic growth with the multinational organisations that have come in, with consumers, awareness, awareness and knowledge, well exposure with the consumers as well. Yes. CX has really changed from the traditional way of the way people used to think, to what it is now and it's continuing to grow.
Clare:
Yeah. And I just find it fascinating because I guess where Customer Experience is dominant in terms of thought leadership, I'm using inverted commas for people that are listening and not watching, doing the little bunny ears signal, but we had a long time to get used to these changes. Cause it all happens gradually in comparison to the explosion that's happening in developing countries. So, I think it's very interesting and great to see women like you leading at the forefront of helping companies to understand the bigger picture and connecting some of those things together because, as you said, you know, expectations of the consumers have changed. They've been influenced massively by what they see outside, individual wealth has grown, therefore consumerism has grown. But having travelled to places like, you know, your examples were great. Like how well service works in banks or government services elsewhere, because of the internet and news and everything that's available.
Clare:
It's not like people don't know it exists. So, the expectation definitely, definitely changes. But it's the acceleration, isn't it? How quickly it's all happened in the last 20 years, like the UK America, that kind of started in the seventies. So, we've had like 50 years of economic, well also kind of post-war, I suppose, development and time to catch up. So yeah. As I said, you're great to see you leading the way on this. So, unfortunately that's all we've got time for. But, what piece of advice would you give to other women in CX out there who are listening to this podcast?
Naima:
What I would tell my community, women in the community is that we should never stop learning. Knowledge is power and I always say that no matter, you will learn something different tomorrow, the day after you learn something different and we learn from each other. Definitely. But again, nothing external should stop you from reaching your potential. Whether it is marriage, it is children. It is, whatever it is out there should never stop from getting your potential. Yeah. I'm thinking of actually starting my doctorate, you know, so my PhD, so it's something that I'm thinking about. And, yes. And yeah, I'm challenging myself to take that up, hopefully by next year.
Clare:
Dr. Naima, that'd be amazing. So, thank you so much for coming today, sharing your story, sharing your insights, helping our listeners to understand a bit more about what's going on in Kenya and Africa and CX in developing countries. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Naima:
Thank you, Clare. Thank you, Clare. It was really nice chatting with you today and I look forward to more of these podcasts as well.
Clare:
Yeah, me too. Me too. So, thanks, Naima and yeah, we'll see you all soon, listeners. Bye for now.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the show, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you are listening or watching on. And, if you want to know more about joining the world’s first online community for women in customer experience, please check out www.womenincx.community and follow the womenincx page on LinkedIn.
Join us again next time where I will be talking to another amazing community member from the USA, about living our values and purpose and the art of CX leadership
See you all soon!
