Clare Muscutt talks with Elena Rozanova about escaping Kharkiv and the realities experienced by Ukrainian female refugees.
What you can do to help
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Episode #405 Show Notes
Clare:
Welcome to the fifth episode of the fourth series of the Women in CX podcast, a series dedicated to real talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen, in, as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects, I'll be your host Clare Muscutt and in today's episode, I'll be talking to one of our members, a seriously brave woman who fled Kharkiv during the Russian invasion of her hometown, and is now seeking refuge in Europe. Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest. She was born in Ukraine and went on to hold a number of senior roles in Russia, working in Customer Experience and Marketing across the property management and financial services sectors. Today's episode is a special broadcast to give her the platform to share her experience and highlight the plight of women and children fleeing Ukraine at this time. Please, welcome to the show, CX Sister, Elena Rozanova.
Clare:
Hi, Elena.
Elena:
Hello. Hi. How are you, Clare? How you,
Clare:
How are you doing today?
Elena:
It's getting better every day, another, another day. Okay. It's getting better.
Clare:
So just to position this conversation, this is a podcast that's being recorded out of our usual schedule and Elena and I met one another, right at the beginning of the Women in CX community adventure, where I interviewed her for her feedback and thoughts about what a community could do to support women like Elena within our industry. And she became one of our earliest founding members and actually helped me to build Women in CX as an MVP and a prototype before launch. And I'm eternally grateful to you, Elena for doing that. But today, we are here to talk about a very important issue, which is the Ukrainian Russian war. And Elena's been sharing her story in the community about what's happening. What's happened to her recently, and we wanted to use the podcast as a platform for her to be able to share her story with the world and to share the story of other refugees that are now trying to escape the conflict. So thank you so much for coming to share that story with us today, Elena. It's probably gonna be an emotional experience to recount, but we are a hundred percent here for you. And I want to make sure that your story's heard.
Elena:
Okay. Thank you, Clare. It's it's very important. Thank you.
Clare:
So, so I guess my first question then is like, just to kind of give us a bit of your backstory really. How did you become a Ukrainian living in Russia? Like how did that transpire?
Elena:
Oh, so yeah, I was born and raised in Ukraine in the city called Kharkiv, which been under severe attacks these days. And when I was around, I don't know, 20, 23, I think I was offered a position in Moscow office of a company, international company. We met at the event. And so then I was offered the position. I moved to Moscow, there was a bit of a drama story behind that, but it's, it's not the issue of this podcast specifically. So, I moved to Russia, I think in 2007, I worked for a couple years in Moscow, moved back to Ukraine to a lovely city called Odessa for one year and then back to Saint Petersburg and then to Moscow. So I think overall it's been about 15 years in, in Russia. Funny enough, I never got Russian passport, which all my Russian friends thought was a stupid idea not to get one.
Elena:
My life should have been a bit easier in Russia. But I don't know. I had this feeling all the time. I don't know. I mean, I cannot explain it. It's fine. I have my great passport. I have some documents in Russia. I'm working, especially I paying my bills, so it should be fine. And I first was in the real estate industry for many years. And then as a Marketer mainly, and then joined bridge company in design company in 2011, spent about, I dunno, six years with them, very, very good experience. And that's how I got my proper British English which everybody likes. And then I have my daughter and she was born in 2016 and realized I cannot travel as much. And I decided that I should probably stay in Russia. So did this. And I think I, I got into CX in 2015, 14, and it just made such sense. So I was trying to promote that in every industry and, you know, I, I still believe, especially in the current situation that what we do is, is something that we need to continue to be doing and change the world for the better.
Clare:
I agree. I agree. And was there always an underlying tension between Russia and Ukraine given the history? Would you like to share a little bit with the listeners about what that history is? They might not be aware of it.
Elena:
Okay. So, I mean, if you look back at the history of this part of the world, you will know that Kyiv was built way before Moscow way before Moscow was the centre of that. I don't know the right word, empire, I would say of, of, of Slavic nations, but then with years and with Russia becoming stronger, some parts of Ukraine being some, some called like Maia, which is like small Russia. That's exactly this part of Ukraine where my native city is located as well as Don Luhansk and to, you know, I mean, tension is possible, but as a Russian speaker and my Ukrainian is way worse than my English, I never experienced any problems and I keep telling all my friends, I mean, both in Ukraine and in Russia, that there are people in every nation and there are some not really smart people claiming that, oh, if you live in Ukraine you'll have to speak Ukrainian, but it's not a general approach.
Elena:
People were welcome to speak any language, but I mean, the official language is still Ukrainian. So it's normal to have the documents and know language if you live in the country, I mean, you come to United Kingdom, you probably should know, you know, should speak English just to be, you know, occupied in the whole environment, engaged in the life. I mean, it's hard, it's politics mainly, not the tension between people though. Yeah, because I mean, there are lots of people in Moscow now who are in real pain because their loved ones are in Ukraine because the families were never separated in terms of the borders we were travelling and everything was fine. So I think it's a crisis for people in Russia as well. I mean, in turn in their hearts now.
Clare:
And can you explain to the listeners a little bit more about kind of what triggered the invasion? Do you know why it's happened?
Elena:
I wish I knew. I mean, a few days before I went to Ukraine and my friends are still laughing about the reason why I went there, because I still hold a Ukrainian passport. I, I decided to renew my driving license in Ukraine. So I went to Kharkiv to do that on the 23rd of February. And my friend, actually, she's based in London. She said, Elena, well, there's lot of intelligence saying that there should be a war or something. And I was saying like, I don't understand the reasoning. I mean, I really, really still don't understand the reasoning behind all that as a person. I mean, we can read lots of, lots of intelligence now, but as a person I still don't understand. And it's still not clear to me. And especially with everything that's going on now with different sources of information, it's very hard to find the exact understanding. Yeah. So,
Clare:
So, you were in Kharkiv literally as the war erupted. Can you tell us, what was that like for you? What happened?
Elena:
Yeah, the bombing started around 5:00 AM.
Clare:
And did you have any warning?
Elena:
No. No, I actually, I didn't even hear the bombing. So we, I got up very early the day before. I had spent a whole day running around doing, you know, things and so, and got in bed very late at my friend's house and I, I woke up like hearing things that my friend's husband is saying about the city the satellites city of Kharkiv being under bombings. And, and in my mind I thought, oh, that's a weird dream. You know, it's such a stupid dream until I opened my eyes and then realized, no, no, they're actually talking in the in the room next door and I could hear them. And I came to their room and said, what's going on? And they said, well, apparently there are bombings all over Ukraine. And I was like shit, I'm sorry to say this word.
Clare:
It's okay. It's okay. It's warranted for sure.
Elena:
It was, yeah, it was just really shocking. And I think I still cannot understand what was going on. Because we got, so we immediately, we got into the car and we went to do some, some things people were standing in the drug stores, lines, huge lines to the supermarket to, I don't know, to everything that could sell anything. So then we go back, packed our stuff, went to my friend's friend in the next building and the reasoning for that was that running from their level 11 to the shelter to the bunker would be much harder. And because they're friend lived on level four, we thought okay, that's good. So we spent the whole day there with three kids. I have still my godson and his family that are back in Kharkiv, they cannot leave.
Elena:
And we spent whole day, we, at some point we could still hear the bombings and warnings and we listened to the tv and, you know, at some point I was thinking I'm like in the movie about alien invasion, honestly, I, I was looking, I was watching those movies before and I thought, oh, I mean, interestingly, how people feel. Like an empathetic person, I was trying to kind of put myself in the shoes of these people. And then I was that person and that, I mean, we, we couldn't really understand what's going on and we taped the windows so the windows did not break if the bomb comes next to the building and the kids fall asleep and, you know, we could, I think we could take the shower then. Yeah. And then in the evening we decided that we need to get out of the house and go to the shelter and the only shelter that was available next was the was the kind of a bunker or space on the high rise where my friends live and this space, it was covered with water just a few months before.
Elena:
So you can understand that it's not like anything refurbished or something like that. There were bricks and there were dead cats and things like that. And we could only sit in the corridor and thankfully, nice people offered a mattress for the kids. Okay, it's good sleep. And my friend, he thought that this was an extra mattress they have in their house or something like that. And just to understand, the guys who offered the mattress, they don't have light. And the elevator, all elevators were cut off the energy, just not to give people inside in case some bombings happen or something like that. And so my friend goes up with them thinking they have an extra mattress or something, and actually they took the mattress off their bed to bring it down and provide kids with space to sleep, which was extremely human. And I hope they're good. I hope these people are good now and reunited with their kids cuz their kids lived somewhere else. So we spend the night there and realize that it will be very hard. I mean, we don't know how long it will take. We all hope it will end in two days in three days. I don't think even people in Ukraine imagined how strong the army is and how strong the people are.
Elena:
We're through this propaganda and not looking at a Ukrainian nation as a strong nation in general. I mean, I think people were losing faith a little bit and with this whole situation happening, the faith is getting back. And most of the people, I would say 95% of people I met during the trip from Kharkiv to where I am now in boa. They all want to get back. They don't wanna, you know, stay out of their loved ones out of their houses, though maybe they don't even have a house anymore. So yeah, it was interesting to see all that. And then the next days until I actually flee we spent in the hospital because one of the friends works there and so we had some space and there was also bunker.
Elena:
And I was moving from very far away from the bunker. So, I was sleeping first in the main room and each night was kind of moving close to the bunker and the last night there, I slept in the bunker itself. And again, it's not that something was prepared. It was, it was just the underground place, again, a bit more healthy looking than the previous one but still. And I think the major thing was to keep sanity and not to let yourself kind of relax because you always have to be aware that the bombs can come. The people with guns can break into the hospital theoretically. And so that kind of, that kind of keeps you very, very alarmed all the time. I still don't really sleep. No, not because I have these weird dreams. It's just that it's just impossible to sleep. It's strange for me, but I was trying to find the reason for that actually. Why, why am I there? And I hope I found one.
Clare:
Gosh. I couldn't only begin to imagine what that must have been like and how much strength it's taken you to recount the memories of what's happened. And you know, you've been through a huge trauma, like you said, you know, this unbelievable situation that felt like a movie and your mind trying to adjust to this being the reality that you are in the movie, the film of a warzone. So I can, you know, only applaud you because you survived that experience and managed to get yourself out. But what was running through your mind that, you know, you are hearing these bombs dropping, seeing these acts of amazing human kindness to one another in the midst of like the worst human acts possible of war and guns and killing people, like what was running through your mind about like the situation? What were you thinking of in those moments?
Elena:
So I was trying to find the reason for why am I here? Because at some point I'm a catalyst because lots of things happened in my life and throughout my life, some bad things happening led me to very good things eventually. So I'm trying not to be focused on the bad things, but think, okay, so this is a bad thing. Okay. It's pretty bad, but where can I jump from there? And especially when I was fleeing, you know, standing in lines and running for tickets and sitting in this compartments just filled with people, amazing people, honestly, amazing people. I was thinking, okay, I'm a Customer Experience Professional. I'm a, I would say Human Experience Professional because I mean, customers and employees are humans, right? So, so feeling all that, can I help at some point? And can I, using all my connections, the community, all these incredible women in CX or other networks that I have in the CX community, can we help the organizations that are actually working with refugees to make the experience of being a refugee a bit less painful and unstable.
Elena:
Cause no matter, I mean, let's be realistic. We cannot stop the wars ourselves, but in our hands we definitely have the powers to help these women and kids who are mainly running or elderly people to feel a bit more secure. Because I mean, in the last line from ... to the train and actually in the first, in the first line as well, we were standing shoulder to shoulder and you were standing like this and someone else was standing behind you. And it was not like, like the line on the tube in London, everybody's standing and it's very precise. People were saving their lives, they were saving their kids lives because that was the most precious thing.
Elena:
And that it was not organized. There were no volunteers at this station at that point. I've heard that now they actually used military guards who gather women with kids and then take them to the trains. But when we were fleeing about a week ago, there was nothing like that. You just stand in line for five hours. We only moved, like, I dunno, maybe seven meters at some point. Me and my friend, cuz I was leaving with my friend and her daughter we've agreed that we probably it's not the way to do it. So we decided you know, to do it differently. And we got on the train eventually. But again, I mean we were literally fighting. I had to push people and in my mind, I mean, I honestly hope that these people got out of there. So, but going through all that, I understand that of course no one was ready for the war, but can we as a community go through, I don't know, journey mapping thinking, coming up with ideas, what can be done on each of these little points to help these women and kids to understand where they're going, to help with the luggage, to help with the food.
Elena:
Cause Kharkiv station was bizarre, people started fighting, literally, you know, kicking each other because they were so stressed, staying in line, not being able to go to the toilet because toilets are not available or they're out and you're here with the kid, you cannot leave the kid, you have the bag, you have everything, you know, a big bag. So that was breaking my heart even more than the bomb bearings itself because thankfully I didn't see it myself, the bombings, thankfully I didn't see myself with my own eyes everything that was demolished. And I mean, I do have this trauma, but I didn't see it with my eyes. But what I saw with my eyes and what I've experienced is being on these trains, in these lines, seeing these women who don't speak the language, who don't have the money, who don't understand whether they will have a bed to sleep tomorrow and they have a little kid or two or maybe three and they have a dog.
Elena:
I love the people who are also taking the dogs or cats because I mean, it's, it's good. It's human not to leave them behind. So, do I have a plan right now? No, I don't. And I'm still trying to just calm down and put my head around the whole thing that happened to me. But do I feel the powers in our hands? Definitely. And I hope next week I will try, or maybe someone who will be listening to this will approach me, one who's helping with refugees and they need my help or they need help of the community. Because I was talking to a couple of ladies from Women in CX who had similar experience, but just different countries in Serbia and Costa and all that. I'm not the first one and I'm not the only one and I'm not claiming I have all the answers because looking at how people flee right now, in what conditions they have to get out of their native country and save their lives. I don't know. Maybe my dad, who passed away many years ago, was my guardian angel. You know, because I fled, I'm still here. I'm still standing. I'm here, you know? And I'll be standing. Yeah.
Clare:
It would only be someone like you who would be thinking about how, what you can do, can help other people when you've been through something so traumatic yourself. So like, I guess if anyone is listening and we, as a community could help to solve some problems or issues, I know that there are some incredibly smart and supportive women who will give their time to do that. We just need to find opportunities to help up. And are you okay?
Elena:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good. I'm good.
Clare:
You know, giving you, to be the platform to share this story and your intention and what you want to do to help, like, you know you've got my support, we just need to try to find ways of being able to help. And I know like the sense of powerlessness that I think people around the world who aren't directly affected by this feel and the, and the empathy, you know, well, not that we can physically put ourselves in your shoes, but hearing your story today and knowing, you know, the details that you'd shared around being women alone in a line with kids while people are fighting and there's nothing being done to try to help manage that experience. Like if there's a way that we can help, of course, we want to do that, but what about you and your family now? So you're not with your children, your daughter or your mom, where are you now and what's happening there?
Elena:
They are still in Moscow. They will leave tomorrow and we have to catch up in Europe. And I mean, it's, your whole life is just kind of blowing. Cause I'm still working for Russian company. I'm working in a bank and I love my job. I love what I was doing. We have so many plans, so I'm not sure what will happen there because let's be honest, I'm a little bit scared to get back because I will not forget. I cannot say that I wasn't there and I cannot pretend it was not happening, but if I will and there is a law and I can get to jail, so I'm not really keen to get to jail.
Clare:
Is that because if you speak out about what happened in your point of view, there's a law against it?
Elena:
You literally can get to jail for just saying a phrase which is for peace, or no war, which is, you know, ridiculous to me, but that's what we got. So, yes, I'm a bit concerned, but also I mean come on, my heart goes to all the people in Russia who are, who will be struggling, who are struggling right now, when things happened and I made a post, I said, honestly, I don't care about the passport or about your nationality or where you are coming from if we understand what's going on, if we are honest that we accept the fact as the fact, because I mean, one of the girls I know from Moscow, she was supportive, you know, she was supportive. And then at some point she said, I said, how are you, how are you doing? And I said, well, under bombs still, and her next phrase just pissed me off. She said, how do you know it's Russians who are bombing? Have you seen it yourself? And I'm like to be fair at the moment, we don't know what's going on because it's war. And of course some Ukrainian bombs or rifles might get to Ukrainian people. I mean, it's not that they're targeting Ukrainian people, just that these are the casualties of war and it's not the first war that's surrounding by this rules in laws.
Elena:
But I would never think this way about this whole situation. So I just got maybe a couple people off my network to be fair because most of the people are okay. And I've got tremendous support. Tremendous.
Clare:
Yeah. Tell me more about that. You said, you know, the human aspects that you've experienced despite this being a tragic and terrible situation, how have you been supported? Who supported you? What kinds of things have people done to help?
Elena:
So, well, first of all, lots of people wrote me messages on different channels. They wrote me messages. All of them offered help. Some who are closer to me, they've offered help to my family in Moscow. And my mum did receive this help as much as it was needed and still keeps receiving that. But you know, there's just a phrase right now in Ukraine and I think it's everywhere during the war times, the phrase, 'how are you' is equal to, I love you. Mm. And that's what was happening. People were writing to me, my HR manager from my bank, she was writing to me morning, midday and evening. I never even met this lady, literally never in my life. We were only chatting all the time for the past year and she was helping me, but, you know, getting this kind of support.
Elena:
And then I received messages from people I've never spoken for like 10 years or 15 years. Wow. From all over the world. And everybody was asking, how can I help? And I said, you know what? Just reaching out is so important because sitting in the bunker, closed off from the whole world and just listening, bad news is getting to you. At some point, I had it a, a little bit. Well, they didn't let me have a meltdown, thankfully. But I had this, you know, I was not sure if I will get out alive. And at some point I almost felt no, I'm lucky. I will get outta here for sure. But then the other, you know, when you're under all this pressure and when we were fleeing with my friend and her daughter, just for you to imagine, so there is a train and next to the train, you see maybe 150 people.
Elena:
And it's not that again, it's not that they're standing in line, they're just surrounding the entrance and we didn't have the ticket, so I was pushing through this crowd to get to the door of the train. And this is a train with compartments. So in each compartment, there are 4 beds, two at the bottom and two at the top. So usually there will be four people. So we get on the train. Sonia, my friend's daughter is crying because she was pushed and she was hurt a little bit. And she was scared that she might have lost her mummy who was behind her. And we got on, I think, second compartment, they are young kids mean 20, maybe 20, 22, 23. And we asked, can we sit please? And they sure there will be lots of us, but of course we can sit. So we sat there and eventually we started chatting and those were kids who were working for the company that's doing some engineering design work for European company.
Elena:
And so they were, I think they were engineers and designers and architects, and very young, I mean, up to 23. Yeah. And they've shared some sweets with us and water and there was one hilarious guy, Daniel, he was making us, I mean crying because of his jokes. And I was looking at Sonia and she was smiling and she was laughing and she couldn't get to sleep because she was smiling so much and laughing. And that was, it was good because after the whole stress of getting on the train or standing the whole, we spent a whole day at the train station waiting for the train. She was, of course, she's a kid, she's 11 years old. She's scared. So that guy really, really, really took the tension away and we sleep. And then there are people, I mean, on the other train and in this train and other station, I've seen unhuman behaviour, then, you know, all these fights and the things, I mean, not unhuman in a way it's not natural for humans.
Elena:
It's more like I would expect more, more friendly. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was frightening at some point, you know, especially if you are running for the train because we only had backpacks, our hands were free. So we've tried to help the mothers with kids who have big bags. So we were carrying with Christine at some point, I was like, I'm just so tired. I didn't sleep for three nights. I can barely, you know, I can barely hold myself. And I don't think I slept for four nights in a row. I mean, normally but just seeing all that, the human behaviour, this, this real strength in being human rather than fight for your own life only. Yeah, Yeah. Is extremely powerful.
Clare:
Yeah. I'm sure that will stay with you forever. So is there anything you'd like to say to the audience, or, you know, how they can support refugees or like what those who are quite distant from this, who really want to help, is there a way that we can help?
Elena:
Okay. There, there are numerous initiatives at the moment, and if you go to LinkedIn, I'm sure you can, you can find, or I can actually repost some of this so you can find me and check my latest post and you can see it. There are lots of refugees coming and if you are based in Poland or Romania or Czech Republic, just Google where, where things are happening and be part of that. Germany even, I mean, people go as far as they, as they can at the moment and they don't speak the language. So download the translation app for yourself. And for those people, I, I know that there are lots of good, good people, and there're also scared. I mean, it's okay to be scared. It's just good if you could download the app, come to the station, meet a lady with a kid, help her to eat and sleep properly for the next days, help her to locate herself and make her feel a bit more secure about her future, even for the next, I dunno, two weeks, four weeks, months, maybe we don't know when it will end.
Elena:
Yeah. An yeah, there are lots of initiatives that are going on in terms of the money support. And again, I'll try to post everything I could find on my page. And thank you. I mean, if you will help just one person right now that will be already one person better for, for all of us.
Clare:
Yeah. And if you give us the links, Elena, we can post them all on our YouTube, Spotify, all of our channels and help you to get that message across.
Elena:
Sure.
Clare:
Wow. Like you are an incredibly inspiring, brave woman. I'm proud to call you a friend. I think what you've been through and the strength you've shown in being able to share your story in the aim of helping others is nothing short of just brilliant. And I really hope that over the coming weeks and months, as you get, you know, reunited with Lisa and your mom and you know, you've got people around the world, especially with us here in Women in CX to support you that you figure out some of those questions that you've got in your head, but please take care of yourself, get some, sleep, some rest. And yeah, if there's anything that I, or any of our community can do to help apart from just sending you nice messages, which we'll continue to do anyway, just let us know any time. So, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sending you the most huge amount of love. Thank you. Okay, bye for now. Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt, please check out the links in the show notes for how you can support women refugees. If you enjoyed the show, please drop us a like, subscribe, and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about joining the world's first online community for women in Customer Experience, please check out womenincx.community and follow the Women in CX page on LinkedIn. Join us again next time where I'll be talking to another amazing community member, this time from the Netherlands about crafting CX culture by strategic design. See you all soon.
