Clare Muscutt talk with Debbie Akwara about her journey to becoming a CX Queen, in West Africa.
Find out more about Debbie and her African perspective on transformation, on the WiCX blog.
Episode #209 Show Notes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Hi, Debbie!
Debbie Akwara:
Hi, Clare. How are you?
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’m awesome today. How are you?
Debbie Akwara:
I’m doing well, thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Great, great. And where are you calling in from today?
Debbie Akwara:
From Lagos, Nigeria.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I was so excited to go there and visit you this year, but that coronavirus!
Debbie Akwara:
You were supposed to, yes. Naughty, naughty coronavirus happened!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Absolute nightmare. So, the audience can probably tell already – the women listening wherever they are in the world – that you and I know each other.
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, so, Debbie and I have been CX queens from a distance since probably a year ago, right? When we met at an event…
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… and the first thing we ever did was a virtual high five across the event in the chat room, and this was before events were online, right? It was quite new and innovative. But from that moment, I just knew I had a CX sister over in Nigeria. Oh, can you hear me?
Debbie Akwara:
Yes, I can.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And ever since, we’ve just kept in touch, haven’t we? Supporting each other on Instagram and social media. I really do think the inspiration behind this podcast and the community that we’re building, you’re one of the women that helped me to get here. So, I just wanted to say a very quick thank you before we begin.
Debbie Akwara:
Amazing work you’re doing, Clare. Amazing, amazing work. Well done!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Doing it for our sisters. Woo! So, today, I think – whoop whoop!
So, today, I think it’d be really great for us to talk a little bit about kind of where Debbie – this powerhouse of a woman – came from. To get to understand a little bit more about customer experience in the context of West Africa, and some of the cultural challenges and differences, I’d really love to know how you’re dealing with the globalisation of your own personal brand because, again, social media and coronavirus has given us a platform which is global, now. And then, finally, I’m going to ask you where you get all of your girl power from because it is so inspirational.
So, audience, strap on – strap in! Strap in. We’re in for a treat. So, Debbie, please do tell me where did your career begin, and how did you get into CX?
Debbie Akwara:
So, originally – I’m not going to lie – I didn’t have CX in mind. I did not know anything called ‘CX’ existed. I was actually supposed to be a lawyer, right? My father wanted me to be a lawyer. And I hate math; I don’t like math. So, one of the requirements – if your Nigerian audience is listening – one of the requirements to study law is you have to have a certain score in math, right, in your high school, after high school. And I was always failing math!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Oh, no!
Debbie Akwara:
So, I was home for like a year. My mates were in school. I had to re-sit the exam another year: same score. And, like, ‘You know what? Law ain’t happening. What else can I do?’ And I thought to change courses, so I went into performing arts, theatre arts, at Delta State University, somewhere in Nigeria, and it was an interesting ride.
So, the plan was, ‘Okay, let’s do theatre arts, or performing arts, for one year, and then I can cross over to law and lose a year,’ but it got to the end of that year, and my head of department says, ‘You’re good. You’re a natural. Why do you want to leave? I refuse to sign a transfer form.’ I begged. I cried. He said, ‘You will thank me later. Stay with us.’ He actually did wave some of the fees for my handout just to encourage me to stay back, and I did stay back. So, you know, it’s interesting. I majored in Mass Communications – I had options of majoring in specific areas – I majored in Mass Communication. And I remember, you know, I was that good – if I have to brag. I’m learning to brag about myself a lot these days…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Good girl!
Debbie Akwara:
… we don’t do that a lot as women, right? So, in my class at the time, our final-year production was the play The Girls Are Not to Blame, an African play, and I was actually the director of that play. So, I was not just the director; I was the first female director in the history of that department.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow.
Debbie Akwara:
It was a big deal. So, after the production, we had our final exams and left school. So, leaving school, we have to wait for a period of time to do what we call the National Youth Service Corps: it’s one year, after university, where you have to work in the public sector.
So, within that period, I got a job while waiting in an advertising firm. I’ve always been that creative person. So, I was an intern. And the sister company to that particular company, it was like a broadcasting company where they’d do gameshows and TV shows for different brands; they produce it for different brands. Now, in this case, one of the presenters, a female, they had some issues with her, said she couldn’t do scripts – because she has to do her own scripts before going on the show – and I told them, I was like, ‘Hey! I actually, you know, this is what I studied in school. I can actually do the scripting for her.’
So, I started doing the scripts, and then, somewhere along the line, she opted out of the show, and my boss says to me, ‘Okay, you’re going for a training at someplace called ITPAN,’ like a training school for people who are going into broadcasting. I didn’t know at the time. So, I went for this course, and I was told then that I was going to take over the show.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow!
Debbie Akwara:
So, I did that for a couple of years – for a couple of months. I did that for about six, eight months, and then my NYSC happened; I had to travel, go serve my country for a year. And then, you know, I got back, and salary was pretty low. And people who had, some guy who knew me while I was on television said there was an opening at his bank. I had a popular face, so he felt that the front desk, it would do them a lot of good, right? So, I interviewed for that role.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, people had seen you on TV basically? So, he thought…
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah, yeah. Exactly!
Clare Muscutt – host:
… just put you at the front of the bank, and they’ll be like, ‘Ah, a celebrity!’
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly! So, I thought, ‘Okay, that’s fine. Let me give that a shot.’ So, I wrote the exam and everything. I passed, and I was put in the customer service department, and the money was huge. Prior to that, I’d also interviewed for an advertising agency, and it was taking them forever to respond. The bank was paying really good money, and the ad company wasn’t going to pay me that much money.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah.
Debbie Akwara:
Now, when you join the bank, if you’re popular – very familiar with other Nigerians – when you join the bank, there’s this thing called like ‘an upfront fee’, where they pay you an upfront salary.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Like a golden handshake.
Debbie Akwara:
So, it was a lot of money, already. I was like, ‘My god! All this money!’ I’d never seen that kind of money before. And then this ad agency calls me and goes, ‘Okay, you’ve passed.’ I’m like, ‘I’ve moved on.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
‘Yeah, bye!’
Debbie Akwara:
‘Bye!’
So, in that role in customer service, I started doing that work, and then I moved to the head of the department, and then I moved banks. So, in my new role in the bank, during my interview, the general manager who was responsible for HR said to me, ‘I think you can do better than staying in the frontline. There’s a department called the Quality Management Team (TQM). I want you in there.’
So, I went to the department, and that’s where my connection with – I didn’t know it was CX, then, to be honest – that was where my connection with managing quality from the customer experience perspective started. And you know, within that time, then, I was moved to – so, the team was dissolved, which taught me a big lesson about connecting customer experience activities with the bottom line. So, when you run on your own, right, there are implications. So, we had our own agenda. Obviously, there was a disconnect and the team was dissolved.
So, I moved into training. I was in training for about five years, but I was still responsible for all the customer-related trainings, and designing the curriculum, and all of that. And then, the bank kind of lost its bragging rights in CX. So, I did a proposal to my boss, then, ‘This is what I think the bank needs to do,’ and she approved my proposal – what you would probably call a CX strategy proposal these days. Because everything kind of existed, but it doesn’t have the fancy names for it.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Honestly, I’ll talk about it in a minute, but this story is so similar to my own. Carry on! Carry on, darling.
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah. So, I was just like amazed – I was pregnant with my daughter; it was almost time to deliver, a couple of weeks before delivery – and she said to me, ‘This is now approved. Once your maternity leave is over, you’re reassigned immediately to implement everything that you have put down in the proposal.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow!
Debbie Akwara:
Right, this is at the Pan African Bank. And I resumed from maternity leave, got on that. It was just me doing the work – again, online, leveraging the network already, platforms already existed at the bank – and the bank moved up back to the first position.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Nice.
Debbie Akwara:
So, at that point, my boss – another boss – who I was now reporting to says, ‘Okay, we are going to merge your team now with human resource management.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Ooh! Interesting.
Debbie Akwara:
And I’m like, ‘Okay.’ I was so upset. I was like, ‘What are these guys doing? What am I doing in HR?’ And my former boss who moved me – who’s also like a mentor because she actually gave me the platform. She’s the most significant female character in my life. She approved the proposal. She gave me the platform. She just let me shine. When I have ideas, all she tells me is, ‘Debbie, what do you need from me?’ – she calls ‘Onome’; that’s my Nigerian name – ‘Onome, what do you need from me?’ And that’s all. I only hear from her when I’ve done a great job and she commends me, or I do something really bad and she’s giving me her own end of the stick. And then, she moved banks. So, I called her and said, ‘Help! HR, what I am doing there? I don’t know…’ and she’s like, ‘What is wrong with you? Why are you letting people see you complain? You’re letting them win. Go into HR, nail it completely, learn, and move.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
And also, I suppose there’s a connection between employee experience there.
Debbie Akwara:
Yep, exactly. So, like, okay, she said so, so I’ll do it. So, I went into HR. I bought this book; I bought a couple of books on HR, just trying to read up and find my own… I’m this kind of person where I like to find my own purpose in everything that I do because that’s what keeps me going. So, if tomorrow, I want to go into carpentry, or I want to become an engineer – I guess I’m too old for that now, but just say…
Clare Muscutt – host:
You’re never too old! Never too old.
Debbie Akwara:
… to become an engineer, right? I’m always thinking, ‘What will be my purpose? What will be “Debbie” about that thing?’ That’s what drives me.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I love that.
Debbie Akwara:
And then in doing that, my mentor ex-boss became executive director at one of the largest banks in Africa, and she reached out to me to say, ‘You need to move, and come with me, and run CX.’ And that’s what happened.
So, I moved to that bank to head the team, put it together, and within nine months of being with that team, the bank – because the focus was they wanted to improve industry ranking in customer service at the time – and just nine months, we moved up three steps from 16 to 13, which was really good. And then, I heard about the vacancy in telecoms company, and like, ‘Okay, I really want to know about CX not just in banking; I want to experience in other sectors, as well.’
So, I moved to a telecoms company, Etisalat (now called 9mobile) in Nigeria, and I worked there. So, Etisalat was a completely different KPI: the focus was supporting the business and revenue with CX. The previous one was ‘Improve industry ranking’. But in this case, my goal was – and this is the example, right? The company at the time, they had 21,000,000 subscribers, and they had invested money in a self-service platform. Now, we had only 300,000 subscribers using that platform. So, the whole purpose of investing in self-service was defeated because the cost to serve at the contact centre – which was the reason for the design of the platform – was still very high. So, the KPI was ‘We need to reduce cost to serve and increase number of customers who are self-serving.’
So, what we did at the time was, ‘Okay, you know what?’ We developed my team – at the time – came together, and what we did was we, of course, we had to do a diagnostics: what is wrong with the platform? So, we spoke to three types of categories of subscribers. We spoke to the guys who had never used the platform to understand why. ‘Have you heard about it? Why haven’t you used it?’ We talked to the guys who had used and stopped. And then, we spoke to the guys who have used and still using it.
Then, we went a step further. So, we did – to help us in the current state mapping for the three different customer categories, for different segments. And then, we now did competition mapping, where we got MTN – these are the telecoms in Nigeria – MTN, Glo, and we bought their SIM cards, used them on the phones, and explored their own self-service platforms. And we found out that the major challenge was customer effort. So, the other guys, while you just – because they know what most subscribers do on that platform, they prioritised those activities as number one. Whereas, we were going with our regular design journey, as against using like ‘a day in the life of’ journey to know that this is what customer prioritises, right? So, we did that. We had a problem – I don’t know when – so, when we did all that, it was shared with everybody: IT, marketing team, the design, everybody; shared with everybody. And like, ‘Okay, so, IT says we need this amount of money to rework the flow on the platform,’ and it was not in our budget. And like, okay, but it was easy for us because the KPI for the business…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Reducing cost to serve.
Debbie Akwara:
… was to reduce cost to serve. So, when we went to the CTO – the chief technical officer – he’s like, ‘Guys, are you okay? This is part of the business KPI. Look for the money!’ So, we got that approval. Now, when that whatever was done, the marketing guys were all sat down, we went on radio, billboard ads, a lot of customer education content we designed, we did flyers, we did brochures, we did like when you make your call, that last-minute notification that you see; we did all sorts of things just to push awareness about it. And that number grew within a year from 300,000 subscribers to 8,000,000 users on that platform.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow!
Debbie Akwara:
So, that was the big one for me, there, in terms of understanding that you have to connect your CX initiatives with what the overall business KPI is. You can’t work in isolation.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. I…
Debbie Akwara:
And then, I moved to education… go on.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Oh, no, I was just going to say, already there are just so many similarities between my own experience and my journey into CX as yours (obviously, without the broadcasting). But just to kind of pause a second and just reflect on like how those doors open, that you never were really looking for, that lead you to another opportunity. It’s crazy, right?
Debbie Akwara:
Mmhmm. Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, being in the right place at the right time, I think I share with you, as well.
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah, yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Or that sense of that turning point in my career was because I did a really great job at the right time. But also, the experience of not really knowing that what you were doing was ‘CX’ when you first started innovating and trying to do things differently around the customer, and seeing the impact that it had, and being able to paint that really commercial picture back to the business of what you did is really refreshing to hear you talk in such a commercial way because, I think – I mean, when you said about the business’s goals. What are they trying to do? Businesses that have robust KPIs that you’re aiming for, like reduce cost to serve without damaging customer service, is sometimes a bit easier to work in than ‘just make things nicer for customers’ because…
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… business sets themselves that goal, and then, they think, ‘Well, why are we doing this?’ Because it’s not been linked directly to their bottom line. And also, the CX design approach that you take is really similar to the one that I did, too. So, ‘Let’s review the existing and design the future.’
But I’m really intrigued – you know, there’s a lot of similarities there – what’s the difference with CX in West Africa? Or trying to do these similar things that we’ve both had the shared experience of, what makes it different in your region?
Debbie Akwara:
So, I would say what’s different with CX in West Africa from my experience is CX hasn’t even started.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Right.
Debbie Akwara:
So, in the Western world, where there is a lot of innovation that has happened, they’ve gone ahead with even using technology to enhance customer experience, and all of that stuff. What has happened in West Africa – and I can boldly say for all of Africa, from my interactions with my CX network across the continent – is we just sit back in admiration of what happens in the Western world, and then, we have now kind of leapfrogged into using technology when there’s no foundation for CX.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Right, okay.
Debbie Akwara:
So, for us…
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, just straight to the solutions.
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly. So, for us, the first step is with customer relationship management. That’s the foundation. If you don’t have that, you cannot evolve into CX.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Right.
Debbie Akwara:
So, in West Africa, I think we don’t understand that yet. We just think it’s – and I’m saying this from a place of practice, right, because this is what I do for a living; I do this for customers. Now, in managing a customer’s relationship, we kind of attach it to a human being. So, I’ll use the banking industry as an example, where there can be a million of accounts, and you have one account officer with 300, 150, 200 accounts assigned to one account officer. It’s manual.
Now, taking – because we have not embraced our own expression of CX, we have not taken relationship management and looking for ways to make that as effective as possible. I mean, you have CRM solutions today, where account officers don’t need to call everybody: he can use data; he can engage; he can segment. So, yes, his focus is not on the 20 that gives him 80 per cent, but the 80 that gives you 20 are also important, and you can actually manage those without that physical contact or those phone calls. That’s where technology comes in.
So, I think we have got it all wrong, and because we have got it all wrong, African businesses are not seeing the kind of reward that CX can give. That’s the major problem. So, I think that’s where we’re at. So, adopting CX for us is becoming a challenge because we have missed that very foundational stage, which is managing each customer as a relationship.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Right.
Debbie Akwara:
Now, the CX bit is ‘Let’s look through their journey, and how we manage their relationships, and how can we be proactive in designing experiences that will not just keep them coming back, but different generations after them?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Okay. So…
Debbie Akwara:
You know what I mean. So, I think that’s the case, and that’s the difference between… yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, just to play that back to you. So, that’s saying basically you’ve leapfrogged the whole part that the Western world did of discovering CX, and focusing on things like service in relationship management, and have just gone straight for technology solutions that solve that. And with that, has come the problem of it doesn’t work as effectively because the foundation was never understood in the first place. So, you’ve got this whizzy system that can do stuff, but you don’t know what you need it to do for the customer, for example.
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Right, I get you.
Debbie Akwara:
And there’s nothing to rest it on. So, I know about one of the big banks in Nigeria today that has heard everybody has a chat bot, right? And they went ahead and got a chat bot. And I’m asking, ‘What information did you feed into that chat bot? What information did you use from your customer relationships as your chat bot scripts?’ So, you have not managed my relations; you don’t know what I need to know.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, I get you. I get you.
Debbie Akwara:
At the end of the day, all that money: gone. Chat bot: not in use. Think about how many millions…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Were wasted there.
Debbie Akwara:
That’s what’s going on.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’m totally with you, but I wonder is that different, actually, to some examples in the Western world, where actually the same thing happens? So, we’ve had a better…
Debbie Akwara:
Oh, right.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… foundation, but I mean, as in, the perk of the technology, or the function or the feature of it, is primarily the function of why it’s bought, so not ‘We’ve identified a need that we need to automate this part of the experience to better serve our customers and give our agents some time.’ So, they end up with the same thing: a chat bot that is rubbish and makes things more difficult.
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly. Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, I think it’s a global issue that you need the right foundation to be able to maximise…
Debbie Akwara:
Because there’s a focus on seeing technology as a solution…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Solution, yeah!
Debbie Akwara:
… instead of the enabler.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Exactly. And I…
Debbie Akwara:
That’s the problem.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. I always say, ‘Problems not solutions,’ because we need to understand what customers, and employees, and the business have as the challenge that the technology might be able to answer. If we just go straight to technology solution, we might be investing in the wrong thing, or something that doesn’t fix the problem. So, yeah, I’m with you on that.
Debbie Akwara:
And what amazes me about that is the technology is selected without the users in the room.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah.
Debbie Akwara:
So, somebody just sees – it’s ‘Oh, I travelled to the UK. I saw this fantastic… Let’s go get it!’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree.
Debbie Akwara:
Or you haven’t engaged that employee experience, right?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah.
Debbie Akwara:
‘You’re working on the frontline. What do you think? Do you need this? What will it do for you?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. Well, and that’s the point of understanding problems first, right? Because you’d have a set of user requirements that would help you select the technology if you spoke to them first. So, I’m totally with you on that.
So, talking about this kind of globalisation of customer experience…
Debbie Akwara:
Oh, wow.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… I love seeing you as a brand, I guess: ‘Brand Debbie, the CX Queen’. That’s a bold statement. I absolutely love it, and much respect to you for – as you said at the start of this – praising yourself, owning your success, standing out there and saying ‘Yeah, I am awesome. What about it?’ I love it.
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah. To be honest, someone actually, people actually called me that, right?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, not self-styled.
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly! Responding to my posts and going, ‘Oh, the queen of CX.’ Yeah, like, ‘Okay! If you see me that way, then who am I not to see myself that way?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, but claim it. Own it. I love it.
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’ve had it, as well, and I feel really kind of like, ‘Ooh, I’m not the CX queen,’ but we are all CX queens, right?
Debbie Akwara:
We are. We are. We are. And I think…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Having a voice.
Debbie Akwara:
Mmhmm. And that’s what has been my journey in building my global brand, right? I mean, I have never seen myself as a global brand; you just said it now. So, I’m adding that to one of my titles.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, do it. Do it. Well, I don’t know, when you start getting on the global influencer list and stuff, you are a global brand, right?
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I think what we’re saying is, you know, being a woman from West Africa in the CX global economy and starting to do speaking opportunities alongside global thought leaders, being on those lists and stuff, you are a global brand. The evidence is there.
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah, exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
You don’t need me to point it out to you. But what are the challenges that you’ve faced with becoming part of this global community in CX?
Debbie Akwara:
I think the number one challenge, I would say, has been me, and accepting that I have content. So, when I started off it was, ‘Okay, what do you…’ there’s this question of, ‘What do you know? Who are you? What do you know? Where have you been?’ And what I did was – and I dealt with it... I’m going to be really honest because that’s what I really love about this platform. I’m going to be really honest and tell you how it is.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Real talk! Real talk time.
Debbie Akwara:
So, I struggled with that for a while, and not being sure…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Who was asking that question of you, though?
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah, so, when I started, I actually got that feedback from someone that somebody she knew was saying to her, ‘What does Debbie know? What’s she doing? What does she know?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Oh, wow.
Debbie Akwara:
People make these kinds of comments. Yeah. You know, and when I started off, I started off really confident, ‘I’ve done this for so many years. I want to commercialise my work experience, and build that brand, and earn a living,’ and when I heard that, it got to me. I’m going to be honest with you, Clare, it got to me because – so, a friend was asking me for a service, and this is what I do for a living, so you have to pay. Now, she says to me someone told her, ‘But I thought Debbie’s your friend, so why is she asking you to pay?’ And I said, ‘If I come to you for food – my daughter is nine years old – would you feed me? Would you put a roof over my head?’ And then, the other comments came in like, ‘What does she even know that she’s asking you to pay?’ So, those kind of comments – I’ve dealt with insecurities in my life, to some extent, so I just have affirmations that I work with every single day just to reemphasise to myself that I am good enough. I’m more than enough. I have everything that I need, like the bible says, ‘that pertains to life and godliness’ – sorry, I’m a church girl. Just slip that in.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s alright.
Debbie Akwara:
Now, so, I had to take a step back, and go through my entire career. And literally, Clare, I wrote down every single thing that I have done that I got an accolade for, not what I applauded myself for. I wrote down…
Clare Muscutt – host:
External recognition.
Debbie Akwara:
I wrote down every single thing that I had – and I’m like, ‘I did this. My god! I did this. Oh, my god!’ And I noticed a pattern, that the value of my contributions that got those accolades were never at the same level; the levels always went up.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Higher. Yeah, yeah.
Debbie Akwara:
Right? They always went higher. And I said to myself, ‘You are good enough. This is who you are. So, for anybody who thinks that Debbie is not, let me reemphasise and reintroduce myself.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yas, queen!
Debbie Akwara:
So, I always – so, that’s when, you know, I now began to, ‘You’ve done these good things. Talk about it! It’s you; it’s not somebody else. You’re no fluke.’ So, I started putting those things out there, and some of them are my strong opinions. I’ll give you an example, it was something I put up on LinkedIn, and again, that’s where principles and values come in. And we’ve talked about this a couple of times, Clare, the issue around people contacting you about judging the CX award and paying to be a judge, right? We’ve talked about this, of speaking, and paying to speak. And I’m saying to myself, ‘You took your time to go through my profile. I am the one adding value to your event. It’s not ethically right that you ask me to pay you to add colour to your event because technically speaking, without me, you have no event.’ Right? So, I mean, I put up that post, and I got some emails from some what I’ll call ‘CX bullies’…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow!
Debbie Akwara:
… in the male category, globally…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow.
Debbie Akwara:
Yes. So, when I got those emails, I mean, that’s why it’s good to do the work in yourself and know who you are and be sure of who you are. So, I got that message, and the person who – globally – was questioning my authenticity described me as a ‘person of colour’, which has never happened to me before in my life; nobody has ever called me a ‘woman of colour’. And then, ‘She’s a woman, so who is she to question why we ask people to pay to be our judges?’ So, in building that global brand, these are – and then, I’m thinking to myself, and I noticed that a few friends I already started connecting with on LinkedIn stopped following me and pulled back.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow.
Debbie Akwara:
But here’s the thing, Clare, because I’ve done my work in knowing who I am, I don’t care because my story is not driven by recognition; I’m driven by passion; I’m driven because I have seen what CX can do. I mean, I run a business. I earn a living helping businesses manage CX, so I have seen – and I’m so happy when I get the call after trainings, like, ‘Debbie, you’ve been so amazing.’ I love the impact, and I’m driven by that. So, whatever you think, it’s fine. And guess what I found out? Because I realised that, ‘You know what? I don’t need you because my story is my purpose, and my purpose – and it makes me do the work.’ So, I don’t limit myself to knowledge of CX for Africa: I expand my thoughts; I read a lot; I read a lot of white papers; I attend webinars; I still need to keep learning. So, in putting my global brand out there, really, for me, the challenge is just being – first of all, it’s telling myself I’m a global brand, and I have content. It’s one thing to be a global brand; it’s another thing to have content that is relevant. So, those two things. And then, having people question your authenticity is another challenge.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And bring into it ‘person of colour’ and ‘woman of colour’…
Debbie Akwara:
Do you understand? That really got me. That really got me. And do you know what that did for me, Clare? Do you know what that did for me, Clare?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Go on.
Debbie Akwara:
It made me happy because it meant that Debbie is known.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah.
Debbie Akwara:
If you feel intimated enough to describe me in a way that puts me down and lifts you up, then I am your competition. And that was my ‘Aha!’ moment.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Haters gonna hate. Haters gonna hate.
Debbie Akwara:
I was actually very happy when that happened. I was happy because, ‘Hey, Debbie! You are a threat.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
You know you’ve made it when…
Debbie Akwara:
‘You are a threat.’ Exactly!
Clare Muscutt – host:
You know you’ve made it when people start giving you grief.
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah.
Debbie Akwara:
And the fourth thing I would say is being bold enough to find – I think the fourth thing I would say is finding a blend between what’s authentic, what’s globally acceptable, that can connect with different target audience. So…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
Debbie Akwara:
It’s fine.
Clare Muscutt – host:
There’s just so much to unpack so far in what you’ve said.
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I guess, as the host, I just wanted to reflect on a few…
Debbie Akwara:
Sure.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… of those first three or four points, which will probably lead us perfectly into the last question. But that kind of sense of building your own brand in the face of people questioning your integrity and your authenticity, so whether that’s someone saying ‘What does she really know?’ or saying things like ‘a woman of colour’ in a conversation where you’re challenging the status quo is tough, right?
Debbie Akwara:
It is.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And I think what I felt when you were talking about that was that moment in time for me, as well, where it made me doubt myself. But what I’ve seen from you, and what I’ve had to do too, is not let that internalisation of somebody else’s negativity affect me. And what I’m seeing here is literally one of the strongest women I know in CX, who is a complete and absolute queen, and takes no shit from anybody, and it’s really impressive. It’s really inspirational, and I really admire you for that.
Because what we have to do, ladies, when we get those voices trying to bring us down is park it and say, ‘There’s a reason behind why you’re trying to say this to me; why you’re trying to tear me down.’ I’ve had it myself from senior women in work, in my industry, or in CX, but they’ve always had, I think, a bit of an agenda as to why they wouldn’t want me to feel as confident in myself. So, with feedback, I…
Debbie Akwara:
They are threatened. They are threatened by you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, somebody’s threatened by these women…
Debbie Akwara:
That’s what it is.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… these women that are loud.
Debbie Akwara:
Let me shock you, Clare, one of the guys is actually one of the big gongs in CX, and I called them ‘bullies’, right? Sector bullies, industry bullies. And he took his time to send me an email on LinkedIn to enlighten me of all the clients he has worked for, and what he has accomplished. And that was when I knew that I was right on the money. So, when someone tells you, ‘This is who I am,’ it’s the first level of insecurity.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, the bragging rights. ‘I feel threatened by you, so I’m going to trot out all the reasons why I’m better than you…’
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly.
Clare Muscutt – host:
But the thing I object to you in what you said, you can deal with that, but then, what was it like to be called a ‘woman of colour’ for the first time in your life by – I’m assuming – a white dude?
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah, yeah. I was speechless. It was at the time where the Black Lives Matter thing was really strong, in the middle of the lockdown. I was compl- because I was a bit removed because I don’t live in America, so I don’t understand to what extent – even though I can identify with what’s going on somewhat – but I was taken aback. And it’s not just that comment. I get a sense sometimes when I even interact with people – I’m going to be honest, Clare, you know me: I say it as it is. Whatever happens happens.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Do it. We’re here for the real talk.
Debbie Akwara:
Now, the comments like, ‘What do you know…’ again, ‘because you’re a person of colour?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s disgusting.
Debbie Akwara:
It’s like CX is for the Western world, ‘We are leading with CX.’ Well, here’s the thing: we’re all doing this together, and they’re different expressions of CX. And it’s okay if you feel that way about me. It’s okay because guess what? It’s not on me; it’s on you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah. And do you know what?
Debbie Akwara:
It’s definitely not on me.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Do you know what? This is part of the reason, right, why we need this global community of women in CX to kind of call out the CX patriarchy, to some extent, who are – if you look at the website for Women in CX, the reason I wanted to do this in the first place was they’d put a list out of ‘Top Influencers in the UK,’ and I was number five, but I was the top woman, and I’d only been out of corporate for two years. So, I was like, ‘Hang on a minute! Where are all the women? And why are there four guys ahead of me?’
Debbie Akwara:
Yeah, yeah. There’s so many women – and I really don’t mind if it’s a man, if it’s a woman, if you’re white, if you’re black, if you’re…
Clare Muscutt – host:
No, no!
Debbie Akwara:
… we’re all doing this together, right? We’re all doing this together.
Clare Muscutt – host:
We are all doing it together, but we need more women to be seen and visible, and speaking our truths with our own authenticity, and not having to modify what we say, or we think, or we do in order to fit in with the expectation that, particularly the patriarchy of CX, has. And that’s no offence to anybody.
Debbie Akwara:
Yes, that’s fine.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Moving onto, I guess, my final question, really, because I’m conscious of the listeners’ time is really where does this feminine energy come from? Because it is so powerful, and if you could bottle me, maybe sell it, that would be great, please, because I’d love some. Tell me: where does this kick-ass confidence come from?
Debbie Akwara:
To be honest, I didn’t always have that. I used to be really masculine growing up because I was in competition with men.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Right, okay, so modifying…
Debbie Akwara:
My understanding was, ‘I needed to be like you to dominate,’ which is why no one can intimidate me, man or woman; I’ll take you out if I have to. So, but I’m coming to realise that as women – I mean, we were talking before this podcast – as women, we are so blessed with multitasking; we are so blessed with doing a thousand things and a thousand talents. I’ve come to realise that I win when I deliver those things, and still show you that I’m a woman. So, yes, you can bake the cake; I can bake the cake. But when you ice the cake, and I ice it, you can tell the difference because I’m icing the cake in stilettos. It makes a lot of a difference.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I love that!
Debbie Akwara:
So, I’ve come to that place where – even when I started, my favourite colour is black, but I’m now embracing more feminine – and it also affects my mood. It affects how calmly I communicate to people. I’ve realised that in being more feminine in my approach, in leveraging my feminine intelligence, I have been able to bring in more men into my fold, so you’re not feeling intimidated by me. The men are creating space for this lady. It doesn’t change that they don’t know what I know, but they are more accepting because I am not competing with you; I’m just in my lane and you’re in your lane.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Doing it your way.
Debbie Akwara:
In my way. Yeah, so, I’m learning that. I’m really learning. And I’m seeing the results, and it’s making me more confident in myself.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m totally with you on that, and I think I did the same thing, and a lot of women do, is thinking that in order to succeed in a man’s world, we have to be equally dominant and loud. And I know a lot of senior women who end up wearing trouser suits all the time, having their hair cut really short, not particularly wearing much makeup because being similar to a man in a man’s world, doing – not the man’s job because men and women can do the same job – seems to make it easier. And I know I was always very feminine, always had my hair long…
Debbie Akwara:
Lovely hair.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Always wearing dresses… thank you. It’s part of my personal brand. Same as you, loving to wear high heels, and actually being called out for that a couple of times, or at least an assumption being made that because I was a feminine woman, embracing my femininity, that in some way that was going to make me less effective at my job. So, I really like what you said there, and I’m going to remember that: ‘I slay, but I slay in stilettos.’
Debbie Akwara:
Exactly. And the reason why I like that is because yes, my femininity gets me through the door, but that even makes you more amazed at my outcome and my result because you don’t see me coming. So, you might have the prototype or a stereotype of women who wear stilettos: they’re fragile; they can’t do – it’s okay, I’ll be fragile. Just get me through the door, right? And then, I’ll show you…
Clare Muscutt – host:
What you can do.
Debbie Akwara:
… that what’s up here, there’s no match.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I love it. I love it, Debs. So, it’s been amazing talking to you, today.
Debbie Akwara:
Likewise.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I feel so much inspiration and ‘girl power’, I think, is the only phrase I can bring to mind when we collaborate together. I’m really excited about the future of this global community with you. We’ve talked about some really important things today, which is about CX is a global challenge that we’re all working on together, and there shouldn’t be a Western world dominance…
Debbie Akwara:
Discrimination…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, and discrimination… or even the sense of making people feel less than because we’re different, or the CX practices aren’t as advanced. Everybody’s got something to add. We are all on this journey together. I’m just so glad that we’re now going to have spaces where we can have these real-talk conversations, and raise our voices as loudly as we like, and celebrate that feminine energy in CX in a more visible way with each other. So, I’d just like to say thank you so much for coming on the show today, Debbie.
Debbie Akwara:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Virtual high five!
Debbie Akwara:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
See if we can time it. For anyone listening, we were just trying to do a high five on Zoom, if you’ve not got the video on. But yeah, thank you. It’s great to talk to you.
Debbie Akwara:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, I can’t wait until I make it to Lagos. Next year, 2021!
Debbie Akwara:
Yes, yes!
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’m going to come and visit you. Well, have a great day, Debbie.
Debbie Akwara:
I would love that. You too.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And we’ll see you soon.
Debbie Akwara:
Take care. Bye bye!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Bye!
Debbie Akwara:
Bye!