Clare Muscutt talks with Shameem Smillie about race, gender, & becoming who we really are.
Episode#005 Show Notes.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hey, Shameem.
Shameem Smillie:
How's it going?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Awesome. How are you?
Shameem Smillie:
I'm really good. Thanks. Really good. And it's Monday so.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Well, by the time the podcast comes out, it'll be Friday. So yeah, hopefully everyone will be in a Friday mood when they're listening to this at home, say welcome to all the listeners as well. And I'm so excited to have you on the women in CX podcast today Shameem, because every single one of our chats we've ever had to date have been awesome. I absolutely love the fact that you're so straight talking and no nonsense. So I know that we're in for some real real talk today when it comes to discussing the intersection between gender and race, when we're talking about feminism and equality.
Shameem Smillie:
Thank you, it's a real honour and a privilege to even be included in the series that you are running, so I am really chuffed.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Aww shush, I wouldn't have it without you. So I think your story is a truly inspiring one. Because you told me that you left school without any qualifications and have managed to rise up the career ladder to make it to head of sales at a tech company and an international tech company no less. So I have a huge amount of respect for your success. And I say this particularly because I have a shared experience of being at the same age and having a really difficult time, getting caught up with an older guy who took me down the wrong path, almost failing my A-levels, and then really struggling to get my life back on track in my twenties. So if you're okay to share your back story, what was it like growing up for you?
Shameem Smillie:
I come from, not a small and but actually mid-sized town called Port Talbot in South Wales. So me and my siblings were by my mother. She brought up alone. But her ethics and her work ethics that she pushed to us were quite fierce, really. So, I knew from a very young age that college wasn't going to be a path that I did take, primarily because I needed to have money. I knew, she just couldn't afford to sort of fund me through college and then through university. And I think that sort of changed my outlook in terms of school. And after the age, probably for after the age of 14, I didn't really go to school much and I ended up just not going back at all from the age of 15. I didn't go back and sit some exams, but nothing that would have made a difference in terms of a career choice anyway. And I ended up leaving at 15 because I needed to earn money. And I knew that in order to, just to even have the clothes that I wanted and, to do some of the things I wanted, the only option for me was to go and get a job so I could earn money and buy these things myself. Cause I couldn't expect my mother to take care of all of that as, for me and for my brother and sisters
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And where was your dad?
Shameem Smillie:
He was absent. He was absent from the time probably since I was two years old. Yeah, I mean, that's another story in itself, but he, wasn't a very nice person and I'm really pleased that my mother had had the sense and the courage really to, to leave him. Cause he was, he was, he, wasn't a very nice guy and he was quite a violent person and my life would have been so different. Had she not had the courage to leave Bristol, to leave, to pick us all up and bring us back to Wales and to get away from him, I dread to think what my destiny would have been had she not left him. And I think, well I went without a lot of things in my life. My mother also sacrificed a massive, massive amount of stuff so that we get. So we could be the people that we are, I guess. And I'm really grateful that she sacrificed all of that. So I can be where I am today.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Just picking up on something you said there about she moved to Bristol?
Shameem Smillie:
My mother ran away to Bristol when she was 17, I think which back in the day that was like going to Australia, , honestly, it's true. People talk about crossing the Seven Bridge, needing a passport, but even now, I speak to my mother and she says, Oh, my daughter lives in England, she doesn't say where in England because England, is this 'massive country'. And she'd done a lot of traveling since it's not because she doesn't know, but back in the day in the sixties, that was such a big deal. And for a girl, , 17 never, ever even left her town really to just up sticks and run away, was a huge deal. And she ended up landing in St. Paul's, which at the time she was the only white woman in an area where there was mainly black people, Asian. It was the Windrush time as well. She met my dad who had just come over back in the sixties. And none of that would have happened. If she didn't have the courage to run away because she didn't want to be the person that her destiny was telling her had to be even at 17.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So there's definitely something about our mothers that runs through doesn't it, doesn't it when they're courageous and have had the resilience to fight and not tolerate what they didn't want in life. It definitely passes onto the next generation. So bringing, I guess then a mixed race family back to Port Talbot was difficult?
Shameem Smillie:
God. Yeah. My mother tells me, all of us kids, some real stories about the time, when, when my sister she's black , she's got Afro hair and when my mother pitched up back home, pushing my sister in the pram, my own grandmother, turned round to my mother and said, she looked in the pram seeing a little black baby and said, you need to take her back to the jungle where she came from. And this was my mother's mother. My auntie who was considered a little bit well off, I suppose she used to say to my mother, Oh, don't bring the kids round because she didn't want the neighbours to know she had people that weren't white in the family. And when I was older, don't get me wrong. She's she was a nice lady and stuff, but she was just really just overly concerned about what it looked like. She didn't want to be judged by your neighbours based on, myself, my brother and my sister, running down the road and into the house. So we didn't really go that much because we were just categorically not invited.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
That's so sad and feeling like it's come such a long way since the sixties, but we're still not there yet. In terms of racial equality are we?
Shameem Smillie:
No, definitely not, when I think about how I felt growing up, because, there was probably me and two others who were the only people that weren't white in our class. And, and that's been the same throughout pretty much my adult life, even now the amount of people of colour, we're still single digit which I think is a real shame. But equally I know we're taking steps to address that. But I talked to my mother about her experiences and I do question how much has really changed. I mean, on the face of it it's changed, but it's the stuff underneath, isn't it? That, that hasn't changed really. It’s the messages that lie underneath the messages. The words that, are not being spoken, but are absolutely being felt that needs to change. And I'm really pleased to see, I feel like the world has really woke since COVID, I feel like the whole,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
George Floyd's murder?
Shameem Smillie:
Yeah, the whole injustices, the inequalities, not just for people of colour, but, for us as women, anything really. And I think it transcends any minority group and, that's still too much of it, in my opinion,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I guess the main difference between the sixties and now is the equality act. So characteristics of minorities are protected, however, attitudes and behaviours and biases are still very prevalent.
Shameem Smillie:
I've been on a bit of a journey of self-discovery and awareness these last couple of months, and I've been learning a lot, really learning about, women's rights, women's equality and, and just, realising probably, I don't know. I don't know why I didn't realise, but realising that all of the things that we're fighting for today, we've been fighting for, for a bloody long time. And it's still not finished. There's still work to be done. And I'm grateful for the women that went before us because they helped us, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing now, had they not done what they had done. And so, I am thankful and more of us need to do this in, in order to fix the things that need to be fixed, you can't be a bystander anymore. We all have to be part of the solution as well as recognising the problems. There's no point just sitting back and I want to be part of the solution, which is why I'm really happy to be talking about this today.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And I'm so glad you're here. I'm just picking up upon what you said there, thinking back like two generations, my grandmother was one of the first women to ever work in laboratories. And she was on the team that developed penicillin for the war effort. Yeah. But she never got any credit for it compared to the men. So if you look in the annals of history, the guys that were part of that team got recognised and she didn't. And then even my mother's generation she was told that she shouldn't study academic subjects. She should do like cooking and sewing and that kind of thing. So left her education and became a teacher initially and went back when I was a small child to become a psychologist and did a PhD and two master's degrees. Whilst I was small because she was determined to raise herself up, too. And I think, the privilege that I've had having been born in the eighties and grown up in the nineties and naughties is night and day. But I agree with you, we're standing on the shoulders of all the women that have gone before us and laid the path and yeah, we've got a duty to do something with that privilege.
Shameem Smillie:
I think that's how I look at it as well. You're right. We do have a duty because a lot of people sacrificed in order for us to have the platform that we've got today and you can't, , we have to, we have to recognise that for the value that they gave us and it's priceless really it is priceless.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. And I think that word that I said at the beginning, , the intersection of all feminism with our gender and race is I think something that I am particularly more awakened to since COVID and George Floyd and recognising that I've probably got it as easy as I possibly could as a white Western woman. And how we're able to amplify the voices of people who are still suffering inequality worse than say myself or ourselves. So, I'm really interested to hear more about, , kind of this intersection for you, between your race and gender and feminism. How did you end up in technology from waitressing and working really hard to earn enough money to buy the things that you wanted. How did you end up in tech?
Shameem Smillie:
Well, when I was 16 going on 17, I knew that like, I think I was doing hairdressing at the time. Don't look at my hair cause I can do other people's hair way better than I could do my own hair.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Oh shush, your hair looks great!
Shameem Smillie:
But I knew that I could only go so far in terms of my, my personal ambitions and in terms of what I wanted to do in my life. And I still wanted to do all the things that most people dream of, travel the world and have new experiences. And I knew in order to do that, I had to leave Port Talbot. Cause I knew I couldn't do it where I was, because I didn't have the qualifications. I didn't have the foundations to allow me to do that. And fundamentally I needed to earn a living. So what I ended up doing was going to the job centre with my mother and I filled out two forms. One of them was to go and pick fruit, I think, or something like that in Jersey. And, and then it happened to be a bloke there in uniform. And he got chatting to my mother at the time. And before I knew it, I was filling out application forms to join the army. And yeah. And then I ended up joining the army and, we laugh now in my family, because the only reason he started talking to my mother was because he fancied her and he wanted to ask her out. And he was the reason that he changed my life because that situation changed my life. So again, thank my mother, but the chap as well, who happened to be in the job centre. And when, when I walked in on that day, because I don’t know what my destiny would have been otherwise.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Wow. So the army, what was that like?
Shameem Smillie:
It was really hard. Really, really hard I hated it for the first couple of years. I was definitely, considered to be the black sheep of the family. Nobody thought I would hack it and, and at the time I didn't think I was going to hack it either, basic training was, was the beginning really of my transformation. And, and I would say that that's been, even though that was my transformation, my transformation hasn't really stopped through all my life. I hated basic training. I hated being away from home. I was really homesick and I was really overwhelmed by the as well. And I really wanted to go home every single day. And every night I would queue at the phone box, reverse the charges cause I had no money and I would be literally bawling my eyes out. To my mother crying my eyes out and then she would say, come home, come home. It's okay. I'd be like, I can't come home because my grandmother, before I left, I'd said in front of everybody. We had the big leaving thing. And she told everybody that it would be days before I'd be begging to my mother had to buy me out because she said I would never hack the discipline. Cause I was considered to be a bit of a wild child back then. And if you knew me back then you probably agree. I was. And so, everybody was putting bets on in front of me saying how long I would last before I packed my bags and come home with my tail between my legs. And it was, it was, it was fear of failure and, and shame that I would, I perceive that would they would all think of me that stopped me from quitting, which I think is really good. And to be honest, my driver for that was/is fear of failure. And it's been, that's been the thread through all my life, as well as fear of not having enough money to, to maintain my independence. And I've never, I've always said to myself, I never want to be in a position where I have to ask somebody else for money so that I can have something that I really want. And I think when I reflect back on my army career, joining the army was probably the best thing I ever did. And then leaving when the army was the second best thing I ever did
Clare Muscutt- Host:
It’s usual to have two such parallel experiences, right. For one move to be the best thing and the worst thing that you ever did, but I can clearly say it was definitely the beginnings of the making of, of you. So thank you so much for sharing that. I think there were two things that really resonated with me in what you just said. And firstly, I think it was that sense of like 15 to 18 and feeling like I was an actual grown up and being in all these grown up situations that I didn't have a clue how to handle and could have derailed my life, that I've got no idea, how I managed to get to where I am now, but looking back and recognising I was a kid, literally a child and it scares me to think of the generations today. Or if I ever had a daughter, I'd be petrified of some of the things that happened to me at that age happening now, but also like your, the way that you turned the negativity from the family reaction and your grandma into something that you metabolised into this power to continue to see it through, to be so resilient and to make it I just have to say, that's awesome and very inspiring.
Shameem Smillie:
But really, I just didn't want to come home as a failure and I didn't want to, I wanted to prove them wrong. So as much as I hated it at the time, I just knew that I wasn't going to come back a failure and I wanted to come back, , feeling, feeling good about myself and proud about myself and I did so that, , that that was really good. It was a good feeling. It was a good feeling going home after I finished my basic training.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And, and seeing it through. So, you obviously worked hard in the army and did your training around technology? Then you ended up in the workplace in first line engineering, is that right?
Shameem Smillie:
Yeah so, joined the workforce as a first line engineer in Mitel, just before the .com bubble burst. And I was in a team with all males. I had guys turning around to me, showing me the devices at the time saying Shameem, have you ever seen one of these and just wanting to pat me on the head because they couldn't comprehend that I had another life before I'd even joined and they used to tell me, Shameem, you're going to grow old on this desk. And I used to turn round and say I'm not going to grow old on this desk. I am going to aspire for better for myself and I've always been hungry. I've always been hungry to learn more. And I've always been really nosy and really curious. So if I see somebody else and I think they're learning something really cool, doing something quite interesting. I want to know what it is and I want to understand it. And, that I think is how I started to sort of differentiate myself. Unwittingly, I say between the guys on the desk, so to speak. So it wasn't long before I was promoted. And like I started moving, moving up and until I got into a third line engineering, and that was a bit of a challenge because I was, I think it was the first female to be in that team. And to the point where a lot of the guys just wouldn't even speak to me, they just, I was invisible. They just didn't know how to handle me first off. I was like a bull in a China shop when I first joined. I was so used to being in an environment where it was okay to see what you think. , my filters were, were very few and far between, and , how I expressed myself at the time know I did offend a lot of people, , and cause whatever I was thinking was coming out of my mouth and I didn't really pay enough attention to how my words made other people feel. So, I came across as, as quite scary, I suppose, as an individual. And I think for the most part, that was, that was, they were definitely correct, but equally they didn't take the time to try to understand me. I was almost like an alien. I was an alien in this environment whereby it was, , men, the guys were used to working with the guys and all of a sudden I came in, I'm like, I'm like a Tasmanian devil, this whirl wind something just massively weird and different to them. And so, it was as much about, they needed to learn to understand me as well as me being able to understand them.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
It's interesting that you say that because I'm imagining from what you've said, it's a load of middle-aged white guys on that third line. Would that be right?
Shameem Smillie:
At the time? Yeah, definitely. There was the odd one, I suppose. But yeah, there was one guy who wasn't white. The rest are absolutely older white guys. Yeah. And, and I made them uncomfortable.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So, behavioural development aside, you still were getting promoted. So I don't think you could have been that bad, but do you think perhaps like your gender made some of the behaviours that you were showing be interpreted to be worse than it actually was because it's not becoming of a woman to be demanding. Could it be like what was perceived as aggression might have actually just been assertiveness and in that environment, it's really hard to get noticed if you're invisible. So I don't know. I feel like I want to say to you, you shouldn't be blaming yourself quite so much as you are for that.
Shameem Smillie:
I know, but you're right though. Yeah. I was often called aggressive, emotional, I am emotional, and I express myself emotionally because I've always been passionate about what I did even going back to before I joined the army. And then I was in this job where, I was called aggressive or lots of terms whereby today they're deemed positive. And, in the beginning, I think I did try to make myself smaller. Is there any way I can describe it so that my voice would, could be heard. And then I got to the stage where I just thought, I'm going to stop doing this because why, why do I need to apologise for being emotional? I like the fact that I'm emotional, I am emotional about the things I'm talking about. customer issues, customer experience, they're very emotive topics. And when a customer is talking to me, I feel it. I feel all of it. And I think that's what makes me better at my job then than maybe some others that I just give a shit about everything. And it makes me an emotional being. And I think it's okay. It's okay to be emotional. And I think equally, I shouldn't be judged, when maybe I'm not smiling all day, but I just think, why do I need to smile? Just to, just to suit the person that I'm speaking to, or if I'm not smiling, why does it have to be because I'm on my bloody period sometimes, , sometimes I'm saying something and it's not, and it's, it's hard hitting because that's the situation that we're in. It's got nothing to do that I'm on my period or that I'm emotional. It's just happens to be an emotion. It just needed it at the time. Does that make sense?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah, totally. But I think you've just hit on the very heart of sexism there. Right? So women experiencing emotions, being perceived to be a female thing. And it's because we're women we are being emotional, which is bullshit. Men who display emotions are passionate and have empathy in the workplace rather than it being a negative trait, which drives me crazy. I think you should see the sexism of being accused of having PMT when we're not happy about something is completely inappropriate and has no place in the workplace and things like that have been said to me in the past too. And I guess when I was younger, I was also in that mode of making myself smaller, to fit in or to match other people's expectations of what a good girl in business should be. And even that point, you said about smiling, well the guys don't get told to smile, and they're not expected to smile on demand or command, or just permanently look pretty and sit there. So, fair play to you for yet again, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and saying, Oh, that isn't me. I want more. And finding the courage to be yourself. And, you've got where you are because of your character. And I would never want to see any more filters on you Shameem. I love your unfiltered wonderfulness, full stop.
Shameem Smillie:
There'll be some people that don't agree. But I think one of the good things though, is that obviously it I work in a male dominated environment it's a given and I think, but along the way, sometimes I didn't know it or see it or feel it, but I've all, I've always had allies, even if they didn't make themselves known to me at the time they were obviously there, because without that, I wouldn't even be here where I am right now, because, , I also want to mention that I think we are talking about why women are great in this conversation and we're talking about CX. But I want to say, but there are shit women as well, I think I've had more than my fair share of really bad women experiences, I think. But I think when I think about the, the allies part of it, we need, too, I'm pleased to say that there's enough men out there -Joakim, as an example here, there's enough men out there who are playing a massive part. And they're part of the solution in addressing the inequalities, let's say between, between men and women. And I think what attracted me to you in the first place, Clare, was I saw that you’re about women helping other women as, and that was quite refreshing to me because I don't see that happening enough in the industries that we work in.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I agree. I think that was part of the motivation for me to do this podcast and yeah, because there are so many women that want to support other women, but we just don't see them visibly. And yeah, I don't know if, if you agree with, but is it perhaps a technology industry orientated thing where women become much more competitive? Because there seems to be so few seats at the table that, that kind of dominance or need to become quite aggressive and male about leadership in, in perceived scarcity sometimes can be the driving force that holds not only themselves back, but other women back to, I don't know if you, if you have any thoughts on that?
Shameem Smillie:
I'm not sure. It's just women in tech, per se. When I talk to my friends, people in my network to my girlfriends who all work in different industry, they've all got their own example when we're sharing stories, they all have a story about some, another female let's say holding them back. Yeah, exactly. And I'm guilty of it as well. I haven't when I think about my journey and, and , the path I took to here, I think back not so long ago, I probably adopted a lot of those qualities as well, which I, which I really disagree with today. Because I thought maybe that's what I needed to do, but in my, in my voyage of self-discovery, I know that's not, that's not what you need to do. And , when we're talking about emotion, emotions, I don't, I'm glad to see that I work with, and, and I have worked with just as many men who are very comfortable with showing their emotions and that in know, humanised themselves as, as well as, , the conversations that we're all having today.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Mm. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. And yeah, absolutely. I'm coming across so incredible men since I've started this, who are showing their ally-ship, telling me how inspired they are by listening to two women, having conversations about topics. They just never had an eye into before. So yeah, I tell you with you and, and, and loving the ally vibe, I guess, kind of, where are things going to next? So, once we've got all of these amazing, strong, confident, powerful women together, and we're sharing stories about like our past, I agree with you. I think if I think back was I always the perfect role model, female leader? Absolutely not. When it came to other women, I don't know what it was about, my, my journey and my awakening. That meant I didn't feel threatened by other women anymore. I don't know. I can't put my finger on it. I don't know when it happened, but I know since the moment that I embraced supporting other women and their success, I got more successful myself too. And it works. And the sisterhood is real and when we support each other, we're there for each other, and potential opportunities when you help each other, raise our profile, even just, like liking and commenting on each of the social media posts to give you a boost. It makes everything better to know that you've got women around you. So again, I thank you for sharing that about yourself and reminding me that yeah. I'm not, I haven't always been perfect. I'm still not perfect, but yeah.
Shameem Smillie:
Now think, , I analyse myself a lot and I think as women as well, and yeah, we're always, , giving ourselves a good, , self-flagellation for all the things that we didn't do better or good enough and things, and like, but I think that's part of our journey. Isn't it? It's going back to the CX theme of what you're doing, it's the continuous evolution, continuous, , looking at things that can be made better to all the time, never being complacent, always, always seeing, right. What's next? What can we do? What can we do better this time and making a difference? And I don’t know, same as you, I don't know when I suddenly changed or when I suddenly woke up to the fact that I could be my authentic self and still be successful and still get the job done and still make a difference. But it was probably, I don't know, maybe it was in the last two years maybe, but it was helped by who I'm surrounded by. And I think seeing all the changes going on in the world, and I'm just, I'm reading everything, I'm seeing everything and I'm feeling it as well. I am allowing myself to feel, and I just, I as well, I just don't mind sharing it. And I think sometimes that comes with being older, perhaps having the wisdom and the confidence to not be afraid. I'm still afraid. I'm afraid all the time, by the way. But, h just, I was talking to my boss this morning and like I said, I made a decision at Christmas that I'm never going to say no to stuff, even when it terrifies me. So when you asked me to do this a couple of months ago, I was terrified. Cause I hate being on video and I thought Oh shit, I got to be on video. And then I got to do it. I've got, I've got to put my money where my mouth is and, I've got to be the difference I want to see. And that's the only way we're going to influence and impact change for the good,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Thank you so much. I personally find your approach to never being beaten by anybody else, surviving the way that you have not accepting the life that you were handed and striving to just be completely independent is amazing. And I'm sure all the women that are listening along will be thinking the same thing too. Again, thank so much for sharing so much of yourself. So authentically, I think we promised real talk at the start, but that was real, real talk today. And I know that I am feeling right now that I could be empowered to do anything based on looking at you, Shameem. So I hope the experience was better than you hoped.
Shameem Smillie:
You make me feel comfortable. And I think that helps. I mean, you did, I think you've underestimated the influence and the impact that you're having as well in terms of how, how positive all of this is. I mean, how can it be bad? How can it be crap. If when, when at the heart of it, what you're doing is just inspirational for all of us. All of us that want to, they want to forge a path as well for, for the girls that are coming up behind us.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Awww that's got me right in the feels. Thanks so much for saying that. Okay. So it's time to close now. So I'd just like to thank the listeners again for tuning in and say one final thank you to our producer, Joakim Thorn and sponsors at Effectly for supporting women in customer experience. Thanks so much Shameem. I'm going to wave bye bye you now. And I can't wait to see you after this locked down stuff is over.
Shameem Smillie:
Likewise. Take care. Bye.