Clare Muscutt talks with Sandra Thompson about the power of Emotional Intelligence & Empathy in CX.
Episode #006 Show notes
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hey, Sandra.
Sandra Thompson:
Hi,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
How are you today?
Sandra Thompson:
I'm really good. How are you?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I'm awesome! Welcome to the women in CX podcast.
Sandra Thompson:
Excited is an understatement of what I'm feeling right now. I've seen this stuff brewing on LinkedIn, hearing some of the people that you've spoken to already. Wow.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Ah, that's so good to hear. And a very big welcome to the listeners as well. So should we jump straight on in there then?
Sandra Thompson:
Yeah, let's do it.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Okay. So today we're going to be talking about emotional intelligence and it is absolutely fantastic to have an expert such as yourself in the room.
Sandra Thompson:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
But for anyone listening at home that isn't so familiar with the time, could you just start by sharing a little bit about what emotional intelligence is?
Sandra Thompson:
So it's an actual skill. That's the first thing to say, and it's a skill that you can learn at any age at all. Some of the people actually asked me, perhaps I'm too old, maybe I'm too young. That's not true. You can learn it at any age. And actually what it means is to have an awareness of emotion within yourself, and then to be able to understand emotions in others. And that's really to build relationships, not only with people at work, but also at home. So this skill is for your whole life. So it's pretty important stuff.
Clare Muscutt- Host :
Now, how does one get in touch with one's own emotional intelligence?
Sandra Thompson:
So you'd start off with self-awareness. There are kind of four areas for you to cover. Should you want to develop this skill. And the first thing is self awareness, which actually sounds really easy. And it sounds like common sense. I mean, yeah, of course I know myself, but do you? So this is around when emotions come up in you, what are they, are you actually giving yourself permission to feel what's really going on? Cause I think all of us to some extent are rushing around, rushing from this, rushing from that. And we're not really giving ourselves permission to understand how we feel about something. And so that's where you'd start, you'd start by noticing what's going on. So if something were to happen, you read an email, you had a telephone call, you had a, I dunno, a zoom call and something happened that either made you feel great or something made you feel not so great. And it's tuning into that.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And when you've got an awareness, where do you go from there?
Sandra Thompson:
When you've got an awareness and this is the big thing, which sounds again pretty straightforward. And I speak to my coachees about this when you have that sensation and you know what it is, then you make the decision to react or to respond.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hmm. That's an interesting difference isn't it? Between reacting and responding. It's been years of practice for me to be able to have that pause point between reacting and responding. So, I'm intrigued, what, what first sparked your interest in this field? What was it that happened in your life that made this a priority for you?
Sandra Thompson:
So we're going to have to go back a little while. I was actually doing a masters in strategic communications and as part of that, you needed to do a dissertation. And I love branding and I love marketing. That's what I was doing at the time. And someone had given me this book, this Daniel Goldman book, which is all about this, this idea that you didn't necessarily have to have IQ (intelligence quotient). If you had this thing called EQ (emotional intelligence), you'd actually be able to smash it out of the park. I was just like, I've got to read this. So I read it. And the dissertation that I wrote was all around branding and emotional intelligence. And that was back quite some time ago. And when I read that at that time, there were only perhaps three or four books on the topic, and now there are hundreds of thousands. So it's probably about 18 years ago that I kind of came across this stuff first off.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And have you changed, do you think, as a result of having this insight and skill and having become, I think it's the first UK coach to be qualified, to train others? How's that, how's your personal experience of life and business and relationships changed?
Sandra Thompson:
Dramatically where to start with that? I wrote about one particular experience on LinkedIn. Actually just over a year ago I slipped two disks in my back. And anyone who's had any back issues will know how excruciating that is. And I was probably about six months into my training of understanding. This is quite a different thing. So understanding it cognitively understanding it from an academic point of view, tick, had that all along actually understanding what it meant to have, the skill was quite different and because I'd done already a number of months, I felt like I was learning some of this stuff. So the old Sandra would have been angry and frustrated and aggressive more than likely with that amount of pain, but with the techniques that I'd learned and through the practices that I'd done, I found myself being really tolerant of people, trying to help accepting help. That was a big thing. And actually kind of going far more with the flow. And it's only when I wrote this down, I realised how much of a change it was for me. And when I talked to my friends about it, they were like, there's absolutely no way. How on earth did that happen.? I was like, I don't know, it must've been this EQ stuff. And so I do put it down to that. It gave me a different set of glasses to wear, I think.
Clare Muscutt- Host :
Interesting just picking up on a couple of the words that you spoke about there. Do you think that the inception point of this is the awareness itself? So being able to master something like your reaction to pain is different than managing your response to people. Like where does it begin to manifest itself as something so powerful you can deal with not just life's not just curve balls, but physical pain?
Sandra Thompson:
So I think that some of the breathing techniques that I had been taught, things like the body scan, it's kind of in there with mindfulness, some of those things and focusing on everything that was well with me. I mean, of course wasn't really able to stand or sit or do anything without feeling not good. So I think that some of the physical things that I was taught helped definitely with managing the pain. No question about that. So I think many people will know many techniques in mindfulness that they could apply or they probably already are applying, but because I'd had back pain, I don't know, seven years before, I don't think it was slipped disk. And I knew then that I, my whole life was centred around this pain and this time it wasn't, that obviously meant that there had been a shift.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I've just been undergoing chiropractic treatment myself for a bruised desk. Yeah. Dealing with the fact that it's probably never going to get better. I'll just have to manage it now. Emotionally, especially for someone who's very fit and active and really into the gym, bearing in mind, I've caused this myself. It was really difficult to deal with the experience of not just the pain, but like how different my life was going to be. Cause I couldn't do a lot of the things that I normally did to like deal with stress and of course, in lock down that was even worse. But my, I remember my chiropractor saying these kinds of injuries are the result of a very long time of holding stress in your body. And just how fascinated I was by understanding the connection between mind and body and stress and injuries and that kind of thing. So it's reassuring to hear you saying very similar thing, and how that connectedness between mind and body and emotion and physical health is something that we could all focus on, I suppose, getting fitter around.
Sandra Thompson:
Yeah. And it's true. And that's the thing, isn't it? Because the science now, because we have MRI because we're able to do brain scans, people are proving, neuroscientists, are proving that the waves in your brain are altered if you're able to practice some of these simple techniques. So yeah, it's exciting times. And I hope that your back's better.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. That, well, it's kind of, I'm now in pre-hab, which is to get back into the gym, but very, very slowly. And it won't be the same kind of experiences, lifting really heavy weights and doing Olympic weight lifting. It'll be a very slowly, slowly, but I'm okay with taking my time this time because remaining injury free has now become a much higher priority than just looking good in a bikini on the beach, having not got any beaches to go to anyway. So, so moving on to kind of this connection then between emotional intelligence and customer experience, I'm fascinated to understand more about your role as a CX educator and how you're bringing this connection to life. Could you give me a bit of an overview of your philosophy about emotional intelligence and CX?
Sandra Thompson:
Yeah. So I've always thought that the ability of people to be themselves for people to make emotional connection was really what customer experience was all about. I've had a couple of customer experience roles before I became a consultant in this field. And increasingly when I do the consultancy stuff, the magic formula is just creating that emotional connection. It's going much deeper than just having a transaction. So the philosophy that I have is basically ensure that you are able behind the scenes to be emotionally intelligent with your colleagues, because if you're asking people to make changes to parts of their business, in order for them to be more customer centred or whatever you want to call it, they have to trust that you are who you say you are, that you have the best intentions in mind that this isn't an empire building thing. And all of those things that people perceive when they think that change is happening and they feel fearful, it's a threat, right? It's a threat to their survival. So if you're able to use techniques in emotion, intelligence, empathy, positive outlook, adaptability, and all of those great things, then people are more likely to go with you when you want to create the change. So that's one thing which is the relationships within the organisation. And the other thing that I think all of us can call on really are times when we have made a connection with a member of staff somewhere, when they've really, really listened to what you've said, and then they offer a solution, which is perfect for that particular situation, which shows thoughtfulness, which again, shows empathy, which shows that they have gone past what you would expect and created a memorable moment. So I think that there's a bigger place for emotional intelligence in customer experience. I think if more people have the skill, we would have fewer failed customer experience programs. If more people had the skill, there'd be fewer complaints. And you never know if we had more of that connection, we'd probably see more revenues, more loyalty and all of those wonderful things that programs are meant to bring.
Clare Muscutt- Host :
That's made me think of two really geeky questions, if you don't mind geeking out with me for a few moments? So guest on episode 2: Claire Boscq-Scott was talking about NLP (neuro linguistic programming). Do you think about those kinds of things in the CX education that you're bringing and how that links with emotional intelligence and empathy and building relationships? I didn't actually ask her or reflection. I really wish I had so you can help to fill in the gaps for me.
Sandra Thompson:
So there's, there's a couple of things there. So NLP I think is critical. And I also think that clean language, although I'm still understanding what that is, my understanding of clean language and NLP as two techniques to build rapport, to build connection and understanding are really important. So if we think of NLP, you are, or you become what you're telling yourself or you say to others, so it's that classic thing of I'll try, or I will, that's a simple example. 'Try' tells your brain, sorry. Don't bother. 'Will' is positive. It's affirmative. It's determined. So in the language you use and the way that your brain responds to the language you use and how you would respond to some of the nuances in some of the language I use, it sounds technical. It's not really, I think it's just purposeful use of language. And I think sometimes, I've definitely put myself in this position. I sometimes get lazy with the language I use. And then I realise I have to be far more intentional and clearly state using the right type of language to get the response I really need.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
You have just reminded me. Someone was saying to me, just this week about the language you use about yourself and how limiting even that can be. So like you said there is a big difference between try and will. I've really caught myself now being conscious of that fact, I say a hell of a lot of negative things to myself!.
Sandra Thompson:
Yeah. I think we do. And if we think about the environment that we're in now, when things are tough, if you and I can't prove this scientifically, I'm sure there's some science somewhere, but if we absorb too much of the negativity within social media or other channels, without even realising it's in our subconscious and we're regurgitating some of this stuff. So making a conscious choice on the things that influence us can help us get that NLP to a good place or to use clean language more effectively.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And my second geeky question was actually about artificial intelligence and things like sentiment analysis. Now we're using a lot of technology to try to read people's emotions. What are your thoughts on the usefulness of that as a progressive CX tool or not?
Sandra Thompson:
I'm kind of in two camps because the more scientists I speak to about the methods they're using to create a tool, to help gain awareness. I'm suddenly seeing that I'm like, Oh, well, I didn't think that before originally I thought, you know what all the sentiment stuff is based on language. Communication is not just a written word. We know for a fact that verbal communication is something like 7% of our overall communication. Everything else is about what we're seeing now. It's about nonverbal stuff. It's, it's your posture, it's your facial expression. It's the sounds that you're making, not just the words that you're using. So some people that I met who do this sentiment analysis based on just language, I was getting a little bit hot about that thinking, I'm not sure about that because the interpretation of it isn't right. But then I also spoke only last week to someone who's got a startup, they're taking all insight from Slack. So they'll basically scrape Slack of everything, the clips you share, the language you use, the frequency, the, all the stuff that you're sharing and they create a profile on you, based on your contribution. And the weird thing is it seems quite accurate. So I think as time goes on, I think it will be a useful tool to help create conversation. I don't believe that it can be a hundred percent correct because we are too complicated at this moment in time for that. But Hey, if you've got a machine that can beat a human on go, who knows what the future holds. Right.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I had a similar conversation with a start-up before lockdown that was using video capture to do something similar, they're reading people's body language. And they were looking at how could this be applied to like customer satisfaction, scores and stuff? And I really wasn't sure where I landed on that one. But Artificial intelligence and emotional intelligence is pretty sci-fi.
Sandra Thompson:
I think, you know the neuroscientists out there will say that if you're able to capture the micro expression, then you're onto something. If you base decisions on all facial expressions, without the context of the situation, you're going to completely misread it. Because what you think looks like anger is absolute delight or, the micro expression you get where someone shows something and then their conscious kicks in. They go, Oh no, you must it like that. Don't say that, don't say that with your face. And then all of a sudden you kick into something else. Yeah.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I'm laughing because I've been told so many times you can read what I'm thinking, and I don't intend to, obviously show that much. And also just the whole notion of having a resting bitch face. Sometimes when I'm listening, I don't actually disapprove. I'm just listening.
Sandra Thompson:
What do you think about AI then? What's your view on that?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So the previous episode with it is Martinez. We did talk a lot about robotics and artificial intelligence in the future, or thoughts around the ethics of robotics and artificial intelligence. I think where I landed on it was because of voice interaction in the home now, which is it affects artificial intelligence, helping me to complete tasks and do things. I guess I've got more comfortable with it being in my home. However, when I imagine the scifi version of artificial intelligence, it still freaks me out. But I think that's just because of the media and how it's demonised. So I'm excited to see what comes, but I'm wary that customer experience, especially is all about people and the humanity. And I'm worried that without some serious injection of action into the customer experience sphere doing stuff that makes a difference, technology, artificial intelligence, so many solutions that can sort it all out for you from a data perspective, I'm worried will overtake the true conscious practice of human centred design. So yeah, I guess excited a bit scared and curious. So just moving into the next question, I'm fascinated with your passion for education. I've never met anyone. That's called themselves a CX educator. Before I, along with my concerns for the future of CX feel that we are definitely lacking in actual education and where nowadays you can get a qualification by passing a multiple choice test in CX. I just, what your thoughts are on how we're going to develop academic practice in a field where there is very little. Do you have a view on that?
Sandra Thompson:
That's a great question. And it's interesting because I teach undergrads and postgrad. So I teach first years and second years about customer experience. And it's fascinating because their view on the world is quite different at this moment in time to the students that I teach post-grad. They're all digital, it's all online. And the human side of it is kind of taken for granted. So actually to have the opportunity to talk to these young people around 'here is some human elements of customer experience. Here is the human interaction. Here is the nuance in the service. Here's that thoughtful expression that creates the emotion that creates the memory. So that's quite a privilege actually to teach in London , with these kind of every year, every autumn my, my peers, my fellow tutors, or suddenly you'll get excited at who am I bringing in as a special guest? Is it some of a Dyson? Is it someone from Volvo? Who can it be? And it, and it's really bringing it to life and showing them that there is a serious career for them in this, if they want it. It's not just being this or just doing that. They can really propel themselves. That's one thing. And the other thing really is around people who have found themselves moving career. And, and sometimes they've just kind of gone with the flow gone, perhaps from marketing or operations or strategy into a CX role. And I feel very, very much the same as you, which is it's not a multiple choice. We actually give them in this post grad course an assignment to do at the end. But in actual fact, throughout the five weeks that we're running it, they've got interventions to learn the whole way through. And that's actually behavioral science. It's neuroscience, it's psychology. It's not an awful lot from the CX books. There's a bit in there from CX books, but most of it comes from the science that proves the evidence on how humans work. And that's where I think all of a sudden the participants we have on the course suddenly go, that's the reason why we need to do that. Or that's something we need to try because the science proves it. I talked to some people about 'peak end rule' I'm sure that you, this one does Daniel Conaman work. And I say, this is why answering complaints has got to be your number one. It's got to be up there as a priority to recover the situation, because actually these create indelible marks for people, and this is the science behind it. And we'd have a chat about that. So the opportunity to educate both the undergrad and postgrad, as I say, is really quite a privilege because you see people taking this theory that you've kind of wrapped up with a bow and given it to them as a gift. And all of a sudden they're trying things that they can prove in the boardroom that the science is there. It's a different, it's a different ball game. I feel, as you can tell, I'm passionate because I can see what it does for people. I think that's the thing, it's not just, here's a case study of what somebody else has done. Here's some scientific fact that you can teach yourself, apply this however you want to apply it. You can do this yourself
Clare Muscutt- Host:
What course is that, sorry, just to give it a shout out.
Sandra Thompson:
It's the applied customer experience course, which I run out, well, I have run it face to face out of Pearson, but I'm going to be running it online from September of this year. So I, I guess actually this is my first shout about it. So I'll be putting some more stuff on LinkedIn about it, but yeah, it's a, it's an online course and we'll be running it from mid September.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And so is it part of a bigger degree?
Sandra Thompson:
Another great question. Not yet. Where I teach, there are some conversations going on, so hopefully something will happen there
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. Cause that would be amazing. There, there, isn't actually a degree in CX anywhere?
Sandra Thompson:
I'm aware of. There's a kind of customer service. There's customer service, business management blend, but I'm not aware of anything.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I think we need, we need something for the future. I do really dream that. At some point, somebody is going to take on the mantle for creating real CX education, as a career path that comes with a degree and a master's or even a PhD. I guess we're are we way off because it is a fusion of so many disciplines. And I really like the point that you made about the foundation being human psychology. And like, for me, I did a master's in marketing and we spent real depth in time in consumer behaviour, in order to drive marketing decisions. But that was the thing that was first turned me on to customer experience was the psychology element of it. And similarly, immersing ourselves in stats and proving points, which is an academic framework for for learning and for articulating, why you have evidence to suggest that you believe something right. And we don't have that generally in the CX community. What we have is a lot of evangelism and passion and belief, but not that much evidence or we have an attachment to what we can see, which might be measurements, metrics, and insights and zero action. So yeah. Shout out to anyone listening in the education space. I'd definitely be up for helping craft that course outline.
Sandra Thompson:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think that because so much new, so many new things are coming to the fore. I mean, even, we're talking about AI, we're talking about machine learning, we're talking about sentiment analysis, scraping data, personality profiles, all of these things are moving at such a pace. And yet I've taught customer experience for an established institution and they seem to still roll out some of the models that I learned when I studied this particular course 20 years ago. And you're just thinking, come on, let's do this, there is loads to stuff in science to help us understand.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I wrote a paper that was the beginning of a book that I hope I might publish one day, which is I called it the CX delusion, because I agree with you. It's based on such old fashioned thinking and nothing has been updated since to say there is a seminal piece of work that changes the game and brings in all of that multidisciplinary approach to fashion something that means universities would have textbooks to teach from that have proven evidence based research or articles to lead from. It sure is a big, big undertaking that I agree we need to move forward from. So just to round this off, it's been amazing talking to you. I get this, this feeling goes for those that are watching, can see like a goose pimple rush on my arm, to hear your passion, your enthusiasm and your determination to make a difference. Not only to customer experience, but all of the people who are learning now on your courses, I'm super excited to hear about this online course. And of course, if you ever need a guest speaker at any of your events,
Sandra Thompson:
Well, you took the words right out of my mouth. And that's the great thing about being able to take it online is because I'm going to be putting far more about emotion, intelligence into it, because I don't need to drag people from across the world into a room. I can just get them online. We're just going to have some zoom calls with some amazing people in this space. So yeah, it'd be great.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So it's a bit awkward if you invite yourself before you get asked,
Sandra Thompson:
I was going to say to you as well. The big shout out for educators. Talk to me, let's do this stuff together anyway, women together.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. women in CX education. Yeah. I love this notion of sex educators. So I guess my last question for you is just what advice do you have for women out there who want to get in greater touch with their emotional intelligence,
Sandra Thompson:
Buy yourself a book, a plain book, and spend two minutes a day, start off with a little time of just two minutes. Cause I know that it's really difficult to commit to time every day and just write down how you're feeling the biggest way to unlock, how to describe your emotions is just to the words. People actually do want to talk about emotions. They just don't know how to. And so one of the first steps I invite my coachees to do is just to write something down once a day, do that and let it flow. You'll find that you'll probably get to five minutes, maybe 10. And it really is quite... I can't quite describe it. Actually. It's going to take me a moment to think of the words, but it feels like you're connected to something that is bigger than you. And it also feels like you're really giving yourself some love.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
That's a great message to end on again. Thank you. It's really inspirational to hear you talk so passionately. It's given me a really good reminder actually for myself. Especially about the words I say to myself and that moment of pause between thinking and reacting. I think it's going to be a valuable reminder for all of our listeners too. So just say thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Sandra Thompson:
And thank you so much.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
See you again very soon and looking forward to having the listeners back next week. Take care. Bye for now.