Clare Muscutt talks with Janelle Mansfield about the pros and cons of being an alpha-female in CX.
Episode #007 Show notes
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hi Janelle!
Janelle Mansfield:
Hi Clare.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
How are you?
Janelle Mansfield:
I am great. Thanks for asking.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Awesome! And welcome to everybody listening at home. Should we jump right in?
Janelle Mansfield:
Let's go for it.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Okay. So I know that you started your career IBM and you took a marketing route into CX. What was it about the field of customer experience that sparked your interest and how was it that you made your transition?
Janelle Mansfield:
It goes back probably almost 10 years before my IBM days. And that was when my dad actually had me get a job when I was 15 and it was in the food services industry at Burger King. And I just always gravitated to the roles that were customer facing and that were interacting with the customers. And I just always wanted to be the person that was making sure that they were having a great experience. And so flash forward 10, 15 years later being in those senior level executive roles, I was doing the same thing except for, I was putting my hand up around the table and asking questions, like, what about the customer? How does this impact them? Why aren't we paying more attention to what our customers were saying and through those questions and through those, those round table discussions, I discovered that CX existed as a discipline. And it was something that I wasn't aware of. I just thought everybody had this role to play in managing the customer journey. And so when I found out that there was a discipline that was customer experience and that it should be its own program within an organisation, I just latched onto it. It just brought together all of my different interests and all of my different skills.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. It's incredible. How many of us actually started our careers on the front line in customer service and in customer experience? So I think it gives you such a good grounding though, right? If you've lived on the front line of service, you get a much better, genuine understanding of customers, but also employees too. Right?
Janelle Mansfield:
Absolutely. Cause you can't ask an employee to do something or I feel you can't ask an employee to do something that you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. And then having done it myself, I could always empathise with those frontline employees and connect with them more and understand what they were going through. And I knew that they had so much to share in terms of insights about the customers as well. So it was like this real natural connection between CX and EX.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I'm just thinking of what you said there about not knowing customer experience was a discipline. I think I've had a really similar experience too. So I was, , looking at metrics and measures and things like training and employee engagement, but it all seems quite sporadic when I first started out in head office. And it definitely wasn't a thing, was it?
Janelle Mansfield:
It wasn't where I'm from in Canada. We're always known in the Prairie's to maybe we sit back and follow until something is a little bit more proven and established in the business world. And I think CX is a good example of that because I know in the US or in Europe CX is probably five to seven years ahead of where we're at in the Canadian Prairies. And so knowing that that is one of the things that inspired me to go out on my own was to help the Prairies. First of all, understand what CX was, understand that it is a sustainable competitive advantage if you do it right. And to catch up.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Okay. So I've got a really quick CX geek question for you, which do you think comes first is customer experience a function of marketing or is marketing a function of CX?
Janelle Mansfield:
So I would say that CX goes across the entire organisation and that every functional area sits underneath CX because marketing is only one component of the execution of the target customer experience. Operations also has a function, product development has a function. Your contact centre has a function. So I say that CX it's across the entire organisation and then each of them areas fall underneath it.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah, but it's not usual to see companies structured that way though, right?
Janelle Mansfield:
No, not at all. And I think more and more, we're going to start to see customers be part of every single function. So you may not see the CX team sit across, but you will start to see each of those functional areas understand their role to play in the delivery of the experience. And they will start to train their teams more. They'll start to understand the voice of the customer better. They'll start to build some of those traditional CX type skills, but they'll build them in each of the functional areas. And the really strong businesses will operate cross-functionally and they'll all be more connected and marketing will understand the role that operations has to play in the delivery of the experience and vice versa.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah, I hope so. So these days you make so much awesome CX digital content, and I think you're always on the leading edge of the tools that are out there that are enabling a work remote. I've been absolutely in awe of you during the pandemic at how much help and assistance you've given to everybody with things like Mural. I was just wondering, what's your thinking behind your content approach and which are your favourite digital tools?
Janelle Mansfield:
So in terms of content, my content is often inspired by questions that I get from my clients or when I'm out there in the community, having conversations about CX. So I figure if somebody is asking the question, then there's a number of other people that have the same question. So that's often the starting point for my content. In terms of the digital tools, I've always been an early adopter of collaborative tools, especially just I don't know if you've ever heard of like, there's this assessment you can do about the type of culture that you like to be a part of. And I like to be part of a purpose driven culture. And so I always start with the end in mind and then figure out the best way to approach it. And so when, like, for example, with the pandemic, I was already using these tools because I'd had to learn to use them in previous roles where I was a remote worker. I was traveling a lot and selfishly I didn't want to travel more than I had to. So I had to master the use of these tools and then the pandemic hit. And I just thought, this is something that I can contribute to the community to help people adapt more quickly and to be more robust and to build out their toolbox. And so one of the tools that I love is mural. Only because it was the first one that I was introduced and it always met my needs. So I never really had a desire to go and seek out any of the other whiteboard and collaborative tools, but I love trying new things. And sometimes you'll find that using these tools, you can actually do more remotely than you could in person. It removes some of the barriers. So you no longer have to wait for people to travel, to come together. It saves money and it also, you can actually work faster. I find I can run a collaborative session more quickly than I could. I was there. I could run it more quickly, digitally than I could if I was running it in person.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
That's interesting. In terms of picking up on something you just said there about it being easier, but from a participant experience perspective, what feedback do you get from them?
Janelle Mansfield:
For the most part? I'd say most people really enjoy using these tools once they've gotten a proper orientation. So I think it comes down to the skills of the facilitator and making sure that they take the time upfront to help the participants get comfortable with the tools and to just get a fear free environment where it's okay. If you make a mistake, it's just about coming together and collaborating. And it also taps into the different learning styles, because when you combine say like a zoom or a WebEx where everybody can see each other, you can have chat going and then you can also participate visually remotely. And so I find that those tools, it just taps into the different learning styles and helps to keep people more engaged longer than if you're in an in person session necessarily.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
It's so cool to hear that you were using all of this before anything happened, maybe you had the foresight that remote working was going to become the future anyway, and it is now right, because for gosh knows how long we're going to be still kept apart and able to do things like group workshops. So fair play to you for spotting that opportunity early on, and also for helping all of us to get on board with it as well. So my next question was about I know that you spend a lot of time with your clients coaching and supporting them through training. What are the biggest areas you're seeing that they need in terms of development for CX leadership?
Janelle Mansfield:
I think so when I think about training, I think the biggest gap right now is the actual application. So it's like when you go to university, so you're going and doing a business degree or something. There's a lot of time spent on the theoretical and the frameworks and where people tend to struggle is actually in learning how to apply it. So when I work with my clients, I offer a combined approach. So it's an immersive training experience. We always introduce the concepts by creating a personal connection first. So for journey mapping, for example, we would do an exercise where they would journey, map a personal experience that they take on a regular basis, like getting gas or going to the grocery store or something like that. So they create that personal connection and they get used to the concept of journey mapping from a customer perspective. And then we would go through and talk a little bit more about the, the tool or the framework. They would practice it from a business perspective. So then creating that connection to the business. And then we do coaching afterwards because it's that application. So you can learn the theory, but you need the support in applying all of these different frameworks. And so those are often like where my clients struggle or where I get the most questions is on the application side. And so I don't know that there's a lot of programs out there right now that are really focusing on how to apply all of these tools and frameworks that we can teach and say a CX masterclass or a foundations course. So it's combining the case studies and then having somebody to talk it through with that. I think people are struggling with right now.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I know how to exactly the same conversation last night, talking about companies, buying technology solutions, for example, that create all of this data for CX, but there's nobody internally that's then able to go, right? How do we turn that into action and actually do something about it, or similarly with the focus that's there on CX measurement, it's really tangible to attach a lot of time and effort to insight and measurement, but again, nothing comes from it ultimately, unless you've got the business acumen and the skills to be able to say, right, we need to create these large scale change projects. And that relies on far more than to apply in a set of frameworks. I'd say, which leads me perfectly. And so our next question, so we're in agreement that business acumen is so important and we're as frustrated as anyone else that CX professionals are in danger of being seen as fluffy. If they haven't got all of these additional skills as a woman with an MBA, I'm sure that really helped you sharpen up, but for those who can't afford the time or cost, that course, what do you think CX-ers could do to develop those kinds of skills and business acumen?
Janelle Mansfield:
That's a really good question. I actually tackle this. And the upcoming book that's coming out in a couple of weeks here, (Customer Experience Two). It's the sole focus of my content is how to build that business acumen. So I give guidance in a few different areas and the first would be as a CX leader, make sure you understand the entire business. I know it's so easy for us as CX leaders to always just go right to the customer and look at it from their perspective. But you have to remember, you're interacting with cross-functional colleagues and cross functional leaders who have different goals. They have different outcomes that they're responsible for they are measured differently. And so to understand the entire business model, and there's a tool called the business model canvas, which is widely used. And it's a really great tool. It tackles the nine different aspects of a business. So I would suggest spending some time as a CX leader, if you want to build your business acumen, download the business model canvas, and just spend some time kind of making some notes on each of the different elements of your business. From the perspective of the canvas, which tackles, like I said, the nine different areas of the business model. And then secondly, I always suggest to eat a little bit of our own dog food.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Nice metaphor.
Janelle Mansfield:
It's a funny expression.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Sorry. Carry on. It's like 'eat at your own restaurant' Right?
Janelle Mansfield:
Right. And in our CX tool kit, we have so many great tools that can help us, but we often use them with the customer lens. And so one of them would be an empathy map and I would suggest identifying the most influential roles within the organisation and spending some time doing the empathy map for those two or three or four people in those key roles to really understand what's most important to them, how are they measured? How can you help them be successful? So you can create that common ground. And I think where CX leaders end up being the most successful is when they help their colleagues be successful when they can connect with them on that business level. And so those are just a couple of pieces of guidance I would offer.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah, I think we can probably explore this a little bit further because it's something that's really on my mind. I know when I was researching for my book that the most frequently cited problems that CX professionals would talk about was 'the business just doesn't get it', or 'how do I prove return on investment' or I guess, holding the executives accountable for not getting it, but my opinion is that's our role. I see actually it is to help them to get it in whatever way they need it to be explained and served up to them. So for me, I guess my first thing I do before I even thought about talking to the customers would be to listen to the business. Do you think that CX-ers that work inside organisations could think more like internal consultants as they're approaching these projects and CX challenges?
Janelle Mansfield:
That's a really good idea for sure is to think like an external consultant. And I think what external consultants are really good at, which is a skill that they could leverage is speaking the language of their stakeholder. So I know where I've struggled when I've been around that table and been the one who's internal, trying to advocate for customer experience is I was really attached to the language of CX and you and I both know there's a set of vocabulary that we all use fairly regularly. And I think a big part of the disconnect in that situation was that I was getting nit-picky about the language and making sure that people were using the terminology correctly when it wasn't about that. And so I'd say we have to adapt like a consultant would adapt our language, adapt our approach communicate using different, using different methods or different channels. And making sure that we repeat it in a multiple number of ways to ensure that they understand the concepts, they don't need to always use customer experience terminology correctly, or talk about the six core competencies the way you or I would. And just getting them to try to understand what we're trying to achieve and why it's important for the business to focus on the customer.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
That's a really good point. And I definitely remember my own customer experience 'myopia' and obsession with trying to force fit the businesses I worked in to work in or operate in my view of the world from customer experience, anyone listening that does not work. It took me a few goes to really learn it doesn't work. Also. There's a huge difference between the conversations that we might be having on say the ground level, where we're working on all this stuff and actually what needs to be elevated for the conversation that happens in the boardroom. Right. So how do you think CX-ers can get more in tune with the C-suite mindset?
Janelle Mansfield:
Well, the one thing that matters to the C-suite is the dollars and cents. So I think wherever possible, and I think it's always possible. It might just be a little bit of heavy lifting on our part because we need to talk in terms of dollars and cents. You can always equate something. You can turn customer acquisition or customer retention into a number. And so doing that work, instead of speaking, in terms of what the percentage of retention is or percentage of acquisition is, do the work for them and convert it to the dollars and speak in terms of dollars and always speak in terms of dollars because that's what they connect with. That's how they're measured. And so I think it's a little bit of learning on our part and a little bit more work sometimes to figure it out, but to always be armed with those financial metrics.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And it's going to make our lives easier in the long run. And I guess if we can be prepared with that and I totally agree my only build on that would be about that thinking about the organisation's strategic objectives. So how indirectly some of the activities that we do in customer experience can help to drive an outcome that they're trying to produce elsewhere, for example, with something around strategy or data or brand. Because I think the other thing I see is the focus that is only on the customer or the employee experience misses that, but you can package up exactly what you're trying to achieve for the customer and the employee using the language of the business and relate it back to strategy or whatever they're trying to achieve. And it's immediately accepted as a way, to help facilitate the achievement of a broader goal, but it is fascinating. Do you miss being on the inside?
Janelle Mansfield:
Sometimes. Just recently, like a fractional CXO with a start-up. And so that was really fun. Just being able to be in there in the weeds and knowing everything there was to know about the business and influencing the culture and ensuring that we were building a truly customer centric culture. So I do miss that, but I also do like being able to be exposed to different businesses, different organisations, different business problems. So I kind of have one foot, one foot on one side of the fence and one foot on the other side.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And I guess as this is the Women in CX podcast, I have one question about your journey and experience of being a female in business. I know you've worked in quite male dominated environments and you've sat at some pretty big tables where females were a minority. If you have encountered any challenges, due to your gender?
Janelle Mansfield:
Well, for me specifically, because if you're familiar with DISC, which is one of those personality tests, I'm a strong D, which is like a dominant, direct communicator. And so that works really well in a largely male dominated environment I found. And so I've actually found the reverse where I've struggled more working with largely female organisations like in the non-profit organisations that I worked at, when I first started out just out of university, I found that more difficult than being a female around the table, but that was because for me, I didn't have a hard time putting my hand up and speaking out it was actually something that's held me back is how much of a 'D' I am, how direct I can be and how dominant I can be in my communication style. So I've thrived in those largely male dominated environments personally,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Why do you think that was? Was it due to like your communication style hitting right to the point immediately? Do men prefer to receive that directness? Or is it more, they respected you more because you didn't try to influence them? You just told them.
Janelle Mansfield:
I think it was partly because I was confident. So like a 'D' isn't afraid to speak up. So I was never afraid to put my hand up and say what I was thinking or say what needed to be said. So that helped me get my agenda or my outcomes achieved around the table. And then, yeah, just tending to be more direct less fluffy and my communication style, like really right to the point worked well now, keep in mind that in those roles I was working with like a military organisations that are used to that.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I'm just imagining you in a uniform now saying 'jump!' and they are like 'how high Janelle?',
Janelle Mansfield:
I was a civilian so no uniform for me, sadly.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
That’s a shame! Ok, let's just dive in lastly, then to this point around working with other women then. What do you think the challenges were with your dominant style? Why didn't women appreciate that?
Janelle Mansfield:
So I think generally speaking, women are more in tuned with the emotional side of it and I had gotten, so I can contrast that my time with like working with the department of national defence and then moving into still a corporate, but a more split organisation where the gender balance, it was more balanced. And so I was bringing that strong D that strong, direct to the point, this is the way it is, this is the way it needs to be into an organisation that was a lot more collaborative and wasn't moving so quickly. It was more about the relationship. And so that was a really, that was a turning point in my career was learning that I needed to adapt my style, my communication style, my leadership style to the situation. And so I thought I'm a D I'm just always going to be direct. And that's the way I am. And that's the way I'm going to be. And until I received some really difficult feedback, when I had made that transition to a different role, I didn't know it was me. And so as women leaders, I think sometimes we look at ourselves too much, but at the same time, I don't know that we look at ourselves enough. And so getting feedback is one of those things that I really strongly encourage women to do is to seek feedback and to do it in a way where you'll get real feedback, not just, Oh, you did a great job. And I learned this from some workshops that I went to, I learned this like really great way to ask for feedback. You ask someone for the feedback, and then you say, okay, now tell me what is the feedback that you really don't want to share with me because you're afraid you're going to hurt my feelings. Cause sometimes people need additional probing to get to the point where they're going to give you that really harsh, that really harsh, honest, vulnerable feedback. That's only going to make you a better leader, but you need to have it in order to be in order to change your behaviour and to move forward. So ask for feedback, ask twice.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And how did you feel when you got the feedback that told you needed to modify?
Janelle Mansfield:
It was really difficult. It was really, really difficult. And I would say it probably took me a solid few months to really process it. I think I went through some stages of grief and I talk about this and some content that I've put out there and in a book called Women Leading, where I just share my story. And the feedback that I got was that I was a bully. And I was because I had come from spending three years working with this military organization where it was all about efficiency and just communicating quickly and just getting to the point. And I brought that forward thinking that that was the right way to communicate. And so I had done this three-60 after I'd been with this new company for about a year. And there was some feedback that I was a bully on, on that three 60. And that was really difficult to hear. It was it was nothing I had expected. It really blew my mind. I had no idea that I was making people feel unvalued or disrespected or that I was hurting people. I was hurting colleagues or I was hurting some people on my team with my communication and leadership style. So it took time, but I was really committed to becoming a better leader. And so I asked some people to hold me accountable. I reached out to everybody who had completed the three 60 and I said, I just owned it. I said, thank you for the feedback. This is what I heard, and this is what I'm going to work on. And I asked them to hold me accountable as well. And you don't change overnight. Like, it's something that I still, I still have to be really mindful of, but it was a gift to receive the feedback. And so I think if, as a woman leader in business, we want to, to succeed and to move up the ranks, we need to, to be open to receiving feedback both good and bad.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I totally agree with you on that. Well, that has been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for sharing, especially that painful story of receiving feedback. I know everyone listening will totally relate to that moment in time that we saw something about ourselves that we didn't know. We probably didn't want to hear, but it's great to hear how you turned that into a positive. I really praise you for your awareness because to me, since I've known you, I've never thought for a second. That's an Alpha for female, who is going to frighten me because you've always been so open and kind and caring. So whatever you've done to work on that side of your leadership style, today, you come across wonderfully balanced. So thank you so much for your time today.
Janelle Mansfield:
Thanks Clare. I really appreciate that.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
You're so welcome! And thank you to everybody that listened along. Can't wait to see you again next week. Thanks. Everyone. Thanks, Janelle! Bye!!!
Janelle Mansfield:
Bye!!