Clare Muscutt talks with Michelle Badenhorst about uniting business analysis & customer experience.
Episode #008 Show notes.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hi Michelle.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Hi. How are you?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I'm great thanks. Welcome to the Women in CX podcast.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Thank you for inviting me. It's really, really nice to be here.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Welcome to everybody listening at home? Should we dive right in today?
Michelle Badenhorst:
Yes, let's do that.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So coming from South Africa, where equality has historically been an issue, what was it like growing up and building a career in a country with such division?
Michelle Badenhorst:
So Clare I would like to start by saying that living in South Africa there is a divide, but for me, the divide was around rich and poor. I come from a community where I have friends from different racial backgrounds and I've never seen them in any way, lesser than myself, but the big divide, the big challenge for us is around poverty. And I think some of the stats are showing that 50% of South Africans are living in poverty currently. And then 27% of the population is in a state of suspected poverty. So the big challenge is around being able to lift yourself out of the state of poverty. And that is about education and creating income for us. So that's what I've really seen. And even the last 25 years with the new government things hasn't really changed. The challenge is still around poverty and I think the World Economic Bank is stating that we need to create, I think it's 600,000 jobs every year for us in South Africa to even create a meaningful change. So yeah, so that in itself was challenging. So being able to get the qualifications and the skills in order to make the changes was difficult.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hmm, interesting. So I spent quite a, a lot of time in South Africa in the last few years. I get what you're saying, where the division is visibly obvious as you leave the city, for example. And then there are these like bordering townships of people in poverty. I guess coming from the UK, we never have that kind of division so obviously. We would have like housing that was paid for by the council, for example, next to privately owned homes. But I don't know, I think it's something about the welfare state in the UK that ensures that nobody ever gets to that situation where it is quite the same. And I guess that leads me into my next question, really. So in terms of customer experience in South Africa, where do you see customer experience growing and where is it absent? Is it a similar story?
Michelle Badenhorst:
So the big organisations in South Africa, they all have customer experiences as a strategic intent, there's no business that doesn't have some element of customer experience somewhere on the strategy. I think the question is really the execution around that. Financial industries, banks are trying very hard. There's one bank specifically that I can present as an example, that's really doing the effort and it's really becoming more and more customer centric. It's a bank called Capitec. Just one of the things that they've done during the pandemic was not only did they give payment holidays, that's also written off the interest the customers or not written off, but they allowed the clients to not pay. They didn't have to pay interest during the pandemic. So it's really an example of meeting the client where they're at and making it practical. But then on the flip side, you see other clients, other companies that struggling even in the banking industry. So yeah, I think, I think there's typically there's two groups of clients really going out doing what they need to do in order to become customer centric, making it count. And then there's a group that wants to be customer centric and saying that we are, but you don't see that evidence. So I don't think it's different in the rest of the world. I mean, what's, what's your view.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I think it's the same actually, that there's always a strategic intent to "put the customer at the heart of everything," but the difference between it being part of a mission statement and it actually being tangible in the experience are hugely different. So yeah, I think, I think there's a similarity born out of capability in CX. And now speaking to women globally, I hear very much the same story around the fact that companies that have latched onto data or technology as a solution to CX still aren't managing to translate that into action. Whereas the ones that perhaps haven't invested as much in technology or data or managing to make bigger strides because they have humanised their approach and their practice to be focused on delivering value and action. So it seems to be a universal challenge to make that leap from talking about it, to really doing it.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Yeah. Maybe just further to your point, there's also the view. If you implemented some kind of customer experience technology or voice of the customer technology, then you are customer centric. So they think by implementing some kind of technology to your point that they're solving the problem. And I mean, we know that just part of the problem. Technology is the enabler of the experience that you want to proactively design or, or imagine the experience and then using technology to actually enable that. So yeah, definitely the same scenarios playing out in South Africa.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I guess because we're typically quite vendor led, I guess, in a lot of the CX practices now that potentially we're slipping further towards technology as a solution rather than an enabler, because a lot of the investment comes from the technology vendors as opposed to the CX practitioner world.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Yeah. Or maybe, maybe I can add to that is I come from a big IT company. So I worked for EOH, which is one of the biggest it companies in the African Sub-Sahara. So they, they they're really big. And so I started the customer experience function for them or consultancy function for them. But because we were known as an IT company that has always been the push it's, it was very difficult to make the shift from being IT led to being truly customer led. So yeah, so I, and now I'm making a point to say that as a CX practitioner, I'm agnostic of technology, I don't push any technology. I don't sell any technology. I don't benefit by selling any technology. I'm really helping the clients to understand what do they need agnostic of technology. So I think that's the value that we can add is having that external perspective, that external view, that doesn't really benefit a technology company.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
And that's great, I guess, to know there, people who can see both sides with your level of experience and exposure of that technology environment and the recognition of the challenges that exist there in things like leading by design rather than by tech, but typically technology is a very male dominated environment, right? And software, those kinds of industries, you don't see many women at senior level. I just wonder, has your gender ever been a challenge in the past when working in those types of companies, especially when trying to drive the customer agenda
Michelle Badenhorst:
I really, if I think about this long and hard, I can't remember a specific incident, maybe something happened and it was sub-consciously. But I do, I mean, I've seen other women that struggled. I see other women in leadership and specifically in IT and customer centric positions that has been challenged by this, I think the difference for me is I mainly worked for myself all the years, so I pushed my own agenda. I made my own way. So it's, it's, it's different, but I think the challenges that that women do face is around being accepted as leaders and just in general, their ability to be, to be leaders. I've seen it in EOH, although they did, they tried very hard to, to enable women. I mean, one of the things that they've done for us is to put us all through a coaching program leadership coaching program. So there was definitely a shift. But I think, I think the numbers are showing that they're not doing it hard enough, the push isn't big enough. If you look at leaders now they're still mainly male. And I think the other thing is there's this belief that women are the caring mothers or the housekeepers. We, we there to care for everyone. You know, so this, I think there is, there is some perception still around women that needs to be changed, but I think that's a slow process.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So would you say South Africa is further behind the curve than other parts of the world on that? Or do you think it's the same?
Michelle Badenhorst:
I think it's the same. What I've seen, what I've heard from other women. I think it's the same. I think the tendency is the same and hence it is just playing out here with us as well.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So just to be clear, cause I wasn't quite sure what you meant. So do you think it's the women's ability to lead or other people's belief or mainly men's belief in an equitable ability to lead?
Michelle Badenhorst:
Yes. I think that's the one it's perception that, yeah. Yeah, but we don't necessarily have the ability to,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. I just think back to when I was in corporate, the amount of times technology companies would come and talk to my team and me and I was running the team. Yeah. Quite often the guys that were coming to talk about technology wouldn't even look at me when we were having those conversations and getting that sense that they were pitching to the boys and thinking, I wouldn't understand some of the terms. Which was always really strange to me because sitting in a team of men and vendors coming in who are also a male, it tended to exclude me. I don't know why, but yeah, I think, I think it is perhaps a perception thing when it comes to technology that we can't wrap our little pretty little brains around it?.
Michelle Badenhorst:
I think that's, I think that's the one thing. And the other thing that I've been seeing is that there isn't a lot of women in IT. I can't tell you why. I'm not sure if it's not interest, if a woman doesn't have an interest it. But if you look at typical, IT sales IT support. I'm thinking of, of even development, how many women developers do, you know?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
One woman who can code. Yeah.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Yeah. So, IT specifically, is it industry is, is usually mind well dominant and, and maybe it's just because it's a lack of interest from women. I mean I can't, I can't think why else that gap would exist. I mean, if you think of women in marketing, for instance, there's a lot more women in marketing.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hmm. But perhaps not at the most senior levels, unfortunately. So, so coming back to where we were on customer centricity. So you're from a business analysis background originally, right?
Michelle Badenhorst:
Yeah. Well partially yes. IT and business analysis.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So typically I think in my experience I've seen that it isn't always the most customer centric approach when gathering business requirements. There may be customer requirements gathered, but I've seen it done in and not particularly customer centric way. So I was really interested to understand, as you kind of led a change in that approach where you were... what was it that you did to really humanise traditionally process-driven activities?
Michelle Badenhorst:
So I think the one thing that I've done is to reestablish myself as a customer experience specialist rather than a BA or business analyst, because the business analyst traditionally is considered as someone that understands and explore the business or your internal stakeholders, what is it that they need? What is it the business need in order to operate? What should your business processes look like? So that it's very much inside focus from the inside out. So I think that if you look at the the BA book, which is the framework for business analysts they are changing it, including things like design thinking. So that are looking at reinventing or redefining what the business analysts should be. But in my mind, the business analysis is a key function or key link customer experience. And the only shift is really your stakeholders. So are you looking at your internal stakeholders? Who is driving the need? Is it the business driving the need? Or are you allowing the customers to drive the need and to drive to the change? So for me, it's business analysis 1-01, and that's what we do. We document requirements, we understand the requirements, we elicit requirements. We engage with stakeholders. It's, it's everything that a business analyst does that we (CX-ers) do as a, but we just do it from a different perspective. So for me, business analysis or good business analysts ask the right question in the right way to the right person at the right time. So it's very much already a people oriented process and function. We just need to allow the business analyst to take a more outside in perspective.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I really like that. That sounds like the perfect storm. I know gave a business analysis a bit of a hard time when I first asked you that question, but equally some of the most successful projects I've worked on, especially in government and public services have been working with an awesome business analyst too, because I think it can also be the other way around when the customer experience approach isn't business focused enough either. So how can we create that perfect storm that enables, as you said, the CX practitioners to think a little bit more inside out and the BA's to be able to think a bit more outside in and have a more balanced view together.
Michelle Badenhorst:
So for me, the critical part or the critical function of the business analyst is to take the work that we've done when we imagined the customer experience, the future experience, that redesigned journey, those touch points, and we've, we've, we've redesigned that they need to articulate that and, and write it in a user story and say, this is the detail around that this is, and then that insights is needed for the developers to develop the solution. So it's, it's really, it's there needs to be, I don't even want to say a hand over because it's not like you're handing it over from, from a CX function to the business analysis function, there needs to be a very close collaboration between the, the experience designer, the business analyst who needs to take whatever's in our mind, this vision, this, this future state articulated in some kind of a function that a developer can go build. So there needs to be very, very much alignment and collaboration and in order to make sure that we can end up with the desired experience.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. That's interesting that you say that way. I guess I was thinking it, if we were starting a discovery for our customer experience design project, say, how do you work with the BA from the outset in that research phase to be working together, to establish the right insight from the outset, for example and as a fellow CX design geek, I think we both are quite openly CX design and service design geeks..... I was just wondering if you could walk me through an example of how nowadays now you're the founder and director of Map and Key. What would your mixed methodology look like in terms of a client project?
Michelle Badenhorst:
So I think I'm a design thinking evangelists. So I completely I'm sold to design thinking. And I think for me, the core of design thinking is that you can explore the problem. It allows you to establish deep empathy and understanding of the problem space so that you can discover purposeful solution. So that's always around driving efficiency and emotional connection, but design thinking on its own, isn't going to give you the full picture. You need to incorporate systems thinking. We need to look at the entire system. You need to be able to get a holistic view of the organisational problem. So if you're just thinking of the customer and what challenges that we're gonna and how are we going to resolve the challenge? You might find that they, you don't have the system to deliver that or implement that. So a key part is the systems view that will help us to identify those internal relationships amongst the subsystems. And then I think it's about lean and that is where we really transform how we think as an organisation, how we help people to believe that they are the change. And for me, that is where we drive efficiency and quality and remove waste. And then last but not least is to be agile. And that's where we, we promote ecosystem collaboration. That's what I talked about earlier. That's where we deliver incremental or interactive change. And that's about driving quality delivery. So I really feel that those four elements needs to be part of every engagement to some degree in some element, and it can be how you implement it and how you do it can be different depending on the projects that you work on.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
That was so eloquently put, I feel very clumsy now having called a CX design geeks, having her, your design thinking evangelism. But that, that was really wonderfully put. Thank you. So my last question for you today is just what advice you'd give to women who are considering transitioning from traditional BA roles into customer experience? What would you, what would you say to them?
Michelle Badenhorst:
So as a typical business analyst, I would start by studying and familiarising myself with the core CX competencies and they can use something like the CXPA framework or even Forester. I love following Forester to understand what exactly are the key competencies or the skill sets that you need in order to be, become a customer experience professional. Then I would do a lot of research around what experts are saying. I would connect with experts. We'd follow up to research. And yeah, I want to mention that my first book, my first ever book was Matt Watkinson's book the 10 principles behind great customer experience. Have you read it?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Matt is my mentor. So, yeah.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Okay. So that was a practical step for me in starting. It gave me the confidence that I needed to start having CX conversations. Yeah. And then I think the last two things is get a mentor. So like yourself, Ian Golding was my mentor and a critical friend, someone that you can test thinking with that's just, just soundboard for your thinking is someone I can give you guidance in with regards to what it is, what you can do. And then the last is figuring out what would it mean for you in your organisation where you are, so now that you know, the competencies, what would it mean for you and your organisation? How can you slowly but surely starting implementing some of that stuff in your organisation and start showing value for the organisation?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I think that's brilliant advice. I'm sure all of our listeners, if they aren't on a CX path or even if they are will be able to follow that advice and definitely get ahead. So thank you so much for being with us today, Michelle, it was lovely to meet you on the podcast and can't wait to see what you do next. Have you got anything coming up in the pipeline that the listeners might need to know about.
Michelle Badenhorst:
Nothing that I can recall at the moment though.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I know you're mentoring and coaching. And the CX book?
Michelle Badenhorst:
Oh yes the CX Book 2. Yes. And then of course I've put together a CCXP coaching program specifically for people that want to get their CCXP qualification. So I've put together a competency framework, coach them through that bolster their confidence and then write the exam and pass the first time. So that's the objective.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Awesome. And where can our listeners find out more about that?
Michelle Badenhorst:
They can go to our website: www.mapandkey.co.za.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Okay. Also make sure you head over there folks. So that's all for today. Thank you again, Michelle. Just one more. Thank you to say to Joakim Thorn and Effectly for being the sponsors of this production. And I hope to see you all next week. Bye for now!
Michelle Badenhorst:
Bye, and thanks again. I really enjoyed it.