Episode #001 Rebecca Brown talking about work-life balance and building a happiness-centred career
You can read more of Rebecca’s thoughts on the Women in CX blog, with her post about mental health in complaint handling.
Episode #001 Show Notes.
Clare Host:
Welcome to the first episode of the women in CX podcast. A series dedicated to real talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in, as we share our career stories, re-live the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects. I'll be your host Clare Muscutt. And in today's episode, we'll be talking about one woman's challenge to create a happiness centred work-life, not only for herself, but also for employees on the frontline of customer service. Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest. She's a self-confessed complaints enthusiast, a regular contributor on LinkedIn known for putting the 'social' in social media, a career spanning notable appointments, including head of CX at property start-up Purple Bricks, and she's now the better half of CX consultancy 'Think WOW', where which she co-founded with her husband and father of their two children earlier this year. Please welcome to the show, CX sister, Rebecca Brown. Hi Rebecca.
Rebecca Brown:
Hey Clare, how are you?
Clare Host:
Great, thank you. Welcome to the podcast.
Rebecca Brown:
Thank you so much for having me! I am really excited.
Clare Host:
And welcome to all the Women in CX audience, listening along with us today. So given your introduction, I think the first question that's going to be on everybody's mind is: as not many women would consider working with their partner....... How exactly did that come about and what is the secret to balancing work, family and home life?
Rebecca Brown:
We'll let you know when we figure it out! Yeah, I guess it's quite an interesting story really. I was two days away from giving birth to my second child, Molly and the company I was working for went into administration. So I was sort of plunged into a bit of a no-man's land. I had a new baby and was full of hormones, trying to get everything to the point where it balanced and made sense.
We had just literally relocated down to the South Coast. So I thought, well, I'll give myself maybe three months with a baby and then I'll look for a new role, so that's what I did. I started looking and immediately and it became really obvious to me that actually there weren't really any CX jobs on the South Coast compared to somewhere like Birmingham (where I was living before) where you would maybe see one or two new vacancies every couple of months. So at that point I thought, okay, this is going to be a tough job hunt. And all of a sudden, everybody started saying to me, why not launch your own company. And that sounded great. I thought, yeah, that's a really, really lovely idea, but it's going to take some guts and I really wasn't sure I had the guts at that point.
So I carried on applying for jobs and eventually got to the point where I found a company that I thought actually was going to get CX, and they also had a sales director position. So I said to Dan, this really sounds like a great company. I think you'd love it and you'd be great at the job. And, actually I quite like working alongside you because I know how much you love the customer. I know how your mind works, you're open to hearing constructive criticism from other executives. And that to me is what I was kind of missing. So we both applied for this company and we both got through to a recruitment assessment day and went to this pub for assessment. There were about 30 people there, some for the sales director role, some for the head of customer experience and some for a HR role. It was really weird being in an assessment centre that had multiple roles that were being applied for, but actually what they did that day was really good.
They got you into groups with other people and saw how you worked with them. It was a really fun day, but I was gobsmacked at the type of people that they had coming to the sales director interview. They all came across incredibly pushy and had sales experience, but not necessarily any tactical experience. So it struck me that Dan was head and shoulders above the competition. And when it came to presenting back the approach and the six months strategy, he was so keen to get across that it's all about listening to your customers, understanding their needs and that you can't even begin to build a sales strategy until you understand what the customers are after. So we both walked out with feeling really good about it and thinking, you know, what, we rocked.
It was a really good day and we walked out thinking- we're going to get the jobs. And the next day Dan was turned down. I was absolutely gobsmacked because I'd seen the competition and it wasn't even just that it would have been a bit close, but I thought Dan was better. He was the only person who had approached it with the values that I really prioritise. And to me that said, this is not the company for me, no matter how great they sound, if they aren't looking for the kind of values in the sales leader that Dan demonstrated, I don't want to work for a company like that either. And then I realised actually, I don't really want to work for a company that dictates the values because they won't ever really be quite what I want. So, we had a chat and talked about the fact that we both felt quite excited about the prospect of working with each other… and decided… let's just do it. I think Dan coming on board Think WOW, gave me the confidence I needed to just make that leap. And that was where it all began.
Clare Host:
It's a great story. And if it really crystallised for you how important your personal values are, and the fact that how they line up with whoever you work with and for is fundamental to your happiness at work, then if you're brave enough to step out and say, 'I can't find any companies right now that match that, I'm going to start my own business' I think that's awesome, and incredibly brave. So back to the beginning part of your story about the corporate days. Actually finding that balance and happiness that you were searching for wasn't that easy, right? Given the environments you worked in, I just wanted to ask what the main sources of frustration you found as a woman in the workplace were, before starting your own company and getting to set your own values?
Rebecca Brown:
I think that's a really great question, Clare, because there are so many different things that face women in the workplace. I think one of the biggest hurdles for me early on in my career was a really strong feeling of imposter syndrome. I felt like whenever I was given a promotion, I was terrified that I wouldn't be able to do the job. I guess it took a lot of people saying to me that these interviewers know what they're looking for, they've obviously seen what they're looking for in you. So you need to just go for it and not really worry so much. But it was really only since I became a mum that my confidence levels soared. And I started to see what other people had seen in me earlier on in my career.
As a younger woman, I went for the promotions. I wasn't shy in saying I really want this extra responsibility, but whenever I got there, I always felt like potentially I was just waiting to be found out. And what would they do when they looked closely and realised they'd made a mistake in hiring me? So that definitely held me back. I think the other side of it is the gender pay gap and the sense of injustice that I felt being on the wrong side of that gap. It occurred very early on in my career. I was working for a fantastic company, female owned as well, and I was proud to work there. I loved my job. I loved my colleagues. But I had recently been promoted and felt that the job I'd walked into was worth far more than the salary I was being paid.
I'd gotten a pay rise when I'd been promoted, but essentially it was not really a job-level-increase-pay-rise. It was, it was more of a 'you've-done-a-great-job-in-the-last-year' type of pay rise. So asked for more and was told "you know, we really respect you asking, there's nothing wrong with that. But unfortunately the pot's empty. That's the budget. That's what’s been agreed with the client. There is no more money, sorry".
Three months later we moved to Birmingham and the company moved me to manage one of their other offices, which was far smaller, it only had two employees and at that point. I became aware that the person they'd hired to replace me, was a man who was brought in from outside the business and despite having never worked with anyone in the business, not knowing how we worked, not knowing know our values yet and was yet to prove himself... He was being paid five grand more than I was the same role in the same business, that I'd been told that the pot was empty for.
That just did not sit well with me at all. I thought it undervalued my achievements and ultimately I felt like I'd been lied to because it was only three months previously, I'd asked the same question and been told "absolutely not, there's no way". So yeah, as the office I was in was much smaller. It didn't really give me the challenges that I wanted on a day to day basis anymore. And with that knowledge that I was being potentially undervalued, I left. That was generally my gut instinct in any role that I found out I was being paid significantly less than my counterparts.
I think it's quite difficult to chase those promotions and to progress in your career if you feel like you have to quit every time you find out that things really aren't as fair as they should be. So over time I sort of sucked-it-up a bit more learned to live with it and just accepted the fact I'd probably get to my pay rise quicker if I stayed put, worked hard and just proved myself. But the gender pay gap has always been something in most of the jobs that I've been in that I've become aware of. And I don't think much is changing there. The push to shine a light on the companies that have a large gender pay gap so far hasn't really resulted in the naming and shaming that I was hoping it might do. I'm not, not about shaming people, but I think without the proper calls to action, these companies are unlikely to take action. They need to start increasing either the women's pay in the roles that are the same as the men’s or just hire more women in.
Clare Host:
Some interesting points there. Let’s unpack a couple.
One of the things that you pointed out was the fact the guy came for the same job that you'd been doing and didn’t actually need to prove anything to be paid more. It feels like there's always an automatic assumption that men are going to be able to do the job. Whereas women have to prove themselves. Do you feel that's been reflected in your experience? I know for me personally, that there have been times I've walked into a room, in a male dominated environment and the expectation of what I was going bring in terms of value was significantly lower than a guy on the same team as me. Being a very ‘feminine’ woman has definitely counted against me on first impressions on occasion. (I’ve actually been mistaken for a PA more than once when I was younger and accompanied a male executive to a client meeting). What are your thoughts on that?
Rebecca Brown:
Yes. It's a really interesting question, isn't it? And I guess we'll never have a definitive answer as to what might cause that and whether it's partially imposter syndrome? Maybe when I walk into a room I do say things with less authority and don't command that same respect for that reason?. I actually have a theory that when I go for an interview I wear my glasses because actually they make me look a bit more sensible, maybe a little bit more intellectual, as insane as that is over the years, I've had enough interviews that I've kind of tested it out. So some that I haven't worn my glasses to, and some that I have and actually every single one I wore my glasses too, I've ended up getting the job. So I think that there certainly is a degree of truth in it.
Clare Host:
It's only your Imposter syndrome telling you that, and making you think you need lucky glasses. You deserved the job!
Rebecca Brown:
I would think 'do not break my lucky glasses’ because everything depends on them! But I think when I wear them, I've had a bit more confidence walking in and I'm more relaxed to be myself and therefore I'm taken more seriously. I don't know.
I have had roles where the people I've worked alongside have openly said, they feel that having a woman in business makes it a better place, makes it a more enjoyable place to work. And that actually, if all things were fair and equal women would, would rule the world, but then actually their actions don't necessarily back up what they're saying. So they're quite happy to say the words and I'm sure they mean them. But maybe they don't think about how they work and how they interact with you after that point.
So yeah, it's, it's an interesting concept, isn't it? I think it's shame in this day and age I've seen so many incredibly powerful, insightful women sharing their knowledge with other people. It just shouldn't come down to gender. It shouldn't be a question of this woman is better or this man, it should just be, who's the right person to the job. I think the push to have more women on the board is essential. I really do providing they are the right women. I wouldn't ever say promote a woman just because she's a woman. I would say she's got to still have the skill set. She's still got to have the experience. But when you look at the FTSE 100, I think there's a stat. I can't remember the exact name is either Dave or John. But there are more male CEOs called David or John than there are female CEO's. And that to me is insane because aren't fewer great women out there to justify that split. So I think it needs to be looked at definitely.
Clare Host:
Well we make up 50% of the population, right?
Rebecca Brown:
More than 50% in some cities, I think Leicester is something like 80%,
Clare Host:
If that's the case, then where are all the women on boards?
Now we must return to is this notion of imposter syndrome. I absolutely agree with you that women experience that sense of not being good enough or doubting their own abilities far more than men. And again, it is statistically proven. I think it can begin quite early on in business-womanhood where, as younger women coming up the ranks, we tend to experience other women in business not being like us. I developed mine by coming across women who didn't like me and made me feel less than… because with women it can become quite a competitive scenario- which I know, you agree is not the way ahead. But the question I had for you was what was it about becoming a mother that changed that for you and gave you confidence?
Rebecca Brown:
That's a really good question. I don't think that I could necessarily say it was one thing. I think I'd wanted to be a mother for as long as I could remember.
At the age of 20, I sat down and thought, I've always assumed I'm going to be a mum, but I've never really thought about that level of responsibility. Maybe I should do that before I decide if I'm going to have kids. I thought about the things that would change in my life and the things I wouldn't be able to do anymore. And I decided, no, I want it. I want it more than anything. And it changed my priorities in life before I decided that I'd wanted to train to be a barrister. And actually it got to the point where I was just acutely aware that to be a successful barrister, be working 60, 70 hour weeks every single week. And at the age of 20, I knew I wanted a family. So I thought, you know what, that's, that's not the career for me. And then it was really hard to have a family. Dan and I got married in 2011. We started trying for baby in 2013. And we had something called a molar pregnancy as our first experience of pregnancy which is essentially where there isn't a baby, it's just a mass of cells that grow instead. But you get all of the symptoms you would normally get from a pregnancy.
We then found out it wasn't a baby. I had to have surgery to remove the molar pregnancy and it really floored me. We then tried for another three years, had one more miscarriage. And eventually Chloe came along and it was just the most incredible feeling, getting that kind of motherhood that I'd always dreamed of. And it puts so much in perspective for me. It was like, I'd finally become what I'd always wanted to be and nothing else really mattered nearly as much. And I think that just gave me the confidence to be myself more and to not really care about other people's thoughts and feelings, because as far as I'm concerned now, as long as I'm doing a good job as a mum, that's my main priority. So, I think through that, I've become a more confident leader, a more confident woman. I can now apply empathy a lot better. I think the loving feeling is back in me and talking to people who are struggling I can relate, as you know, I've struggled too. So I think it helps me to be able to empathise with any situation, but also that you just don't know what situation someone's is in.
While we were going through all of that, we didn't talk about it, to the outside world, we were a happy couple having the best time of our lives. So I think all of that comes together to just make me more confident and more caring professional, and actually to recognise that the priorities in life are not chasing down the job titles, that the priorities are about being happy. They're about being fulfilled. And I think that was another really big driver for us starting our own business was that, we want that work life balance. We're not afraid to work for it. But we also want to work for an employer who really gets that family is, absolutely our priority. The kids come first at all times.
Clare Host:
Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been. I admire the resilience that you must have had to have found within yourself to just keep going and keep pursuing what you really wanted. So, yeah, I'm absolutely sure. Even though it was a terrible experience your journey to motherhood absolutely has shaped the incredible woman that you are today.
Rebecca Brown:
Thank you.
Clare Host:
It's a very well deserved compliment. I just keep picking up all the way through, your sense of values, your sense of purpose and the absolute razor sharp clarity that for you, family is the most important thing. And the values that you hold are absolutely driving your direction, which leads me on to my next question. I think happiness comes back to a desire to live with authenticity. You said you needed that in your career in order to feel happy. Authentic leadership is absolutely one of the most in demand behaviours that recruiters and companies look for in the marketplace, but it's still a really tricky path to tread isn't it? Being truly yourself is risking judgment, especially when you've got a bit of imposter syndrome going on. To fully 'be' in the presence of others and especially in the presence of others in a work context is a risk. I've really been enjoying following you on LinkedIn and seeing just how congruent that set of values is. Your family comes first, especially the importance of your relationship with Dan as your husband, as well as co-founder. I saw your anniversary post yesterday. I'm sure there must've been some downsides to being so vocal in social media. So as a woman who has become very visible. What have some of the challenges been?
Rebecca Brown:
Yeah, I think a lot of it is the perception of professionalism, isn't it? And the fact that you're taught all the way through corporate working life that to be a successful leader, you've got to leave your personal life at the door and that you shouldn't really bring anything of yourself to work. And for the first few years of my working life, that was how I was. I wasn't friends with my team. I was very shut off. It was very much 'you will do your work and that's the way it will work'. And actually I've learned over the years that you've got to care about your team as individuals. You've got to understand them, you've got to know them. And that if you support your team to also feel like they can be themselves and they can be authentic in the workplace, you get so much more productivity, you get a happier workforce and you get happier customers as a result of that.
I think that's something that I've gradually shifted away from, but even so didn't fully leave behind until I became self employed and stopped being accountable to other people. And that's been a really fun journey for me to just be able to say, look, you know what, I want to work with clients who share my values. I want to work with clients who already love their customers, but maybe just don't know how to make things the best they can for them. And if they disagree with me on racial equality, if I disagree with me on homophobia, I don't really want to work with them because that's not the kind of company I want to make better. And it's been really nice to finally have that say, and to know that I can just be vocal. And it might mean I have some quieter months for business. That's absolutely a risk I'm happy to take. And that's quite a nice freedom, probably found the same with your self employed journey.
Clare Muscutt
I totally agree. What are the main benefits I think of leaving corporate is being able to choose who you work with, and I'm the same as you. My set of values drives everything that I do, and if they get stepped on, I guess I'm never going to be as productive or happy. And now I'm a consultant and I work with clients. Having that alignment on philosophy is not only really important for a productive relationship, but actually inspires how we together and the results that we get and the ideas that we get, because it's already from a starting point of positivity. I can't imagine ever having to work with a client that I didn't like... Because I know myself, it just wouldn't work. But in the social media sense, being yourself, being very open about it. Have you come across any negative behaviour from people? With their reactions to your openness or to your very clear set of values or your outspokenness about them?
Rebecca Brown:
I think as a whole social media has actually been very supportive. I've been overwhelmed with the level of support I've received personally, and I've seen out there for others over the last couple of weeks. It's a really kind nurturing place to be. I think there'll always be trolls out there who take exception to other people being happy. I think that there will occasionally be something that I say that, that strikes against someone without necessarily meaning to or, you know, occasionally it will actually be aimed at a particular negative mindset. I have had some comments, I think I've learned to try and leave them on LinkedIn, which is not as easy as it sounds. I'm quite a sensitive person. Working in the world of complaint handling for as long as I have, I've definitely developed a much thicker skin. And I've developed the ability to understand that quite often. It's not me it's them. So that helps, but yeah, when you get a nasty comment and all you're trying to do is talk about something interesting. I just think there's a lot more room for people to share their views in a respectful way and I think that would always be my response is, well, let's, let's talk about this, but let's try and let's just try and calm it down. Cause I want to hear your view. I just don't want to be called names while you're at it.
Clare Host:
I guess my experience has been less about overt criticism to posts. It's more the covert sliding into my DMS and guys, you know, saying, 'Hey, pretty,' clearly not making a connection with me because they're interested in what I have to say, but connecting with me because they think that perhaps it's some kind of dating site. I always wonder, do they ever think it would actually pay off?
Rebecca Brown:
I mean, it must work for some of them otherwise, why keep going? Yeah, absolutely. And I think since I've become more vocal on LinkedIn that's absolutely escalated, I probably get between one and two messages a day, just, just hitting on me. I even got some after posting the anniversary post yesterday. I've literally just posted how happy I am with my husband. What are you trying to achieve? And it's bizarre. There's no place for it on a professional platform. I feel really strongly about that. So, I've called that out in the past. I'll continue to call it out again. I'm not about naming and shaming. I don't want to bring the trolls down on these people but they need to understand that behaviour is not okay.
Clare Host:
Hmm. Yeah. A hundred percent, but I've really loved being a part of our LinkedIn girl tribe. When we see it, we call it out. We let each other know that it's going on. And we jump to the defence of other women who are being attacked or experiencing blatant sexism on their posts. I think there's so much power in women supporting other women. The only way we're going to get through it together, and by racing to each other's defence in those situations.
Rebecca Brown:
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And that's part of the support that I'm talking about when I say the last couple of weeks have just been incredible. We've seen so many women suffer at the hands of awful comments and knowing that we've got that network, to say that God, I feel for you, that's just awful. That's not okay. It makes it so much easier and it's just a lovely place to be. So I feel really proud to know so many incredible women and that that number is growing all the time.
Clare Host:
It is indeed! So just conscious of time, I know you've got client meetings to go to. There's so much more we could have talked about, in fact I will probably have to get you back on to actually talk about the customer experience stuff at other time. But I just like to say, thanks very much for being here today, Rebecca and sharing yourself so authentically. It's a really positive message to talk about living your values, not just talking about them, really living them and it’s so inspiring seeing someone who's actually built their life around their values absolutely smashing it. I'm sure it's going to be a very inspirational thing for the listeners of the Women in CX podcast too. So yeah, you're making me think you can really have it all.
Rebecca Brown:
Fingers crossed. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful talking to you, I really, really enjoyed it.
Clare Host:
No worries! Also thanks to you Joakim Thörn and Effectly for sponsoring the podcast production today and supporting us Women in CX.
Rebecca Brown:
Thanks guys.
Clare Host:
Thanks for listening to the women in CX podcast with me, Clare. Muscutt. If you enjoyed the show, I want to know more. Please check out www.womenincx.community and follow the Women in CX page on LinkedIn. Or please leave us a review on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Spotify. Join us again next week, when we'll be talking about overcoming adversity to succeed in CX.