Clare Muscutt talks with Sonia Etxebarria about the importance of understanding users in experience design.
Clare:
Welcome to the 7th episode of the sixth series of the Women in CX podcast – a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects. I'll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today's episode, I’ll be talking to an incredible community member from Spain.
She’s worked in customer-facing roles in various industries, from Global Customer Service Manager to the Business Unit Director for one of the biggest design studios in Europe and in 2012, set up her own CX design company. Now running and serving as a Strategist at Akuyari, a people-centric design company, she seeks business opportunities for international customers and looks for the best way to add value to society. Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest, CX sister, Sonia Etxebarria.
Clare:
Hola, Sonia!
Sonia:
Hola!
Clare:
[Speaks Spanish] Welcome to everybody that is listening or watching this podcast. You might be wondering, has WiCX gone Spanish? Well, I've been learning Spanish over the course of the last year, and Sonia is one of my wonderful WiCX sisters who's been entertaining me and letting me practice on her. So, thank you so much for that. Sonia, and thank you for being here today.
Sonia:
Oh, you're more than welcome. Thank you for having me.
Clare:
So, Sonia, let's start with the same question I ask all of our podcast guests, and that is, how did you find your way to Women in CX and what's been happening in there for you? It's been a while, hasn't it? You were one of the first!
Sonia:
It's been a while. Well, I could say it's been, what, two years now?
Clare:
Years, yeah.
Sonia:
Wow. Two years. I can't believe it. Well, to be honest, I can't really remember how I came across it, but I think it was because I saw a post on LinkedIn. By you know, one of the alpha founders and, I don't know if it was you or someone else. And then, I think in fact it was Marta Domingo, who contacted me and she said, Hey, would you be interested in this? It's really cool. Obviously that was at the very, very beginning. So, you know, but it was still there getting designed. And, so I say, yeah, sure. You know, I love these things, especially if this, you know, is formed by a woman and if it's been designed by us for us, you know, it sounded really cool. So then I got in touch with you, we had a chat and there was chemistry there. I thought you were great. You were a great leader. You really, you know, I mean, by the words she was saying, I thought she knows what she's talking about. So, yeah, you sounded really good. So I said, yeah, sure, why not? So, then we started having meetings at the beginning. Remember those days?
Clare:
Yeah, the co-design workshops.
Sonia:
Workshops all the time, designing workshops and then, you know, feedback and then research, internal research. It was a lot of things, you know, going on there. It was a lot of fun. It was great. We really got to know each other, you know, that little bunch of people were there together. And, so yeah. And then from there, lots of things have happened. From that very first moment, you know, I really, really bonded with some people because like I said, you know, we're spending so long together, so many hours together at the end of the week. I don't how we managed, to be honest.
Clare:
It was in the pandemic though, wasn't it? And like loads of us, our consulting businesses had basically died. So we had nothing, no work on at the time, and like, hanging out on Zoom and working on a project together that was around customer experience or member experience for WiCX. it was a bit of a lifesaver for a lot of us. I know it was for me. But yeah. But things have changed for you since, so...
Sonia:
A lot. Because, you know, out of all those people that we met at the beginning, obviously we shared a lot of things apart from values, experience, interest, motivations, you know, we shared so many things, it was so, so easy to bond. And, so some of us decided to try work on projects together. We say, yeah, why not? You know, like I said, it was the pandemic and, you know, things were not running the way we wanted. So let's say yeah, let's, you know, seek opportunities somewhere. So we got together, a few of us, and at the end, after a couple of years, you know, of also redesigning and, you know, this process that we love following, we became Akuyari and now we are a solid group of people working together.
Sonia:
We've been working in many projects together. And, you know, the feeling is there, still there. It's the same feeling, the same, you know, motivation, the same interest, the same bonding. So it's fantastic. Fantastic. And we are all very, very close to WiCX because, you know, it's like our beginning and, you know, our ongoing. So, we're still there. And still many more interest in an amazing people joining us. So, it's like non-stop. And, you know, we keep redesigning and we keep, you know, improving, getting better. You guys are amazing. Constantly coming up, you know, with this amazing stuff. You know, all of us go, wow, really? Did you pick up that? You know, so you understand the community so well. And there are always opportunities, you know, for everybody to get involved. And, you know, I just find this is a great community that you guys created and are still creating. So, every day you surprise me, you know, with news.
Sonia:
Do you guys like it? And we're like, yeah. We love it!
Clare:
Yeah. And I think we're going to go on to talk about this later, but that's always been a shared love of ours, hasn't it? How to design customer experiences, how to research and iterate and design and develop products and services in response to customer needs. And it was just an absolute joy to get to do that with such a passionate group back at the start. And I'm just so proud that we've been able to continue that. But your story, the Akuyari story, is definitely one of my favourite community stories to tell, because, you know, that's what we built the community for, right? To bring women together to collaborate and support one another. And you guys just took it to the next level, collaborated and built a business together, and are winning business together. And you've got, you've earned some really massive contracts, haven't you recently, as well.
Sonia:
Yeah, recently we have, we are getting a lot into pharma and, you know, which is also an industry that we love because, you know, the reward that you get when you get for this industry is amazing. Because at the end of the day, you're designing for sick people, so, you know,
Clare:
Make a difference.
Sonia:
Totally. You know, you always try to make a difference. So that goes with us very much. And, yeah, it is really, really great. I mean, customers that we get in, obviously, you know, like everybody, we have to work every day, work really hard to get the business, but you know, we're getting there, we're getting there.
Clare:
Yeah. I just remember you running up to me, when you came to the WiCX Global Gathering, it was the day that you found out you got your first big contract, the big win, wasn't it? Actually at our conference. So yeah. I'm just so happy for you, happy for you all. Power of collaboration and women supporting one another transpiring to these amazing results and a better business and life for all of you. And yeah, just really love seeing what you're doing, especially over on LinkedIn and all your live webinars and stuff. So, well done. Well done, team Akuyari. So, I'm sure the listeners would love to know, having heard about the community and knowing now you run this agency collaboration including a load of members from Women in CX, but what was your career journey to get to the point of becoming a freelancer or setting up your own agency? What did you do to get here?
Sonia:
Well, it's been a while, you know. We're not getting any younger. But yeah, well, I started working in uk. I moved to UK like a year after I finished my degree, and I got into telecoms. I was working in Telco for a few years there. Then I came back and I brought my husband with me.
Clare:
Oh, and by the way, Sonia's husband looks just like Idris Elba, super handsome guy. I said that when I saw your WhatsApp photo. I was like...
Sonia:
I can't complain.
Clare:
You're with a celebrity. He Literally looks like Idris Elba.
Sonia:
He does, he does. He looks like him a bit, but no. But yeah, I brought this lovely guy with me. And so we moved to Madrid because I'm from [inaudible] from the north of Spain. And then I carried on working in Telco for a few years, but then there were so many moves in the market because at the time when I was doing this, people were more focused on getting a job based on what you studied. And, you know, also the degrees that you could do were quite limited, not like now that you can basically do the degree...
Clare:
Very practical ones.
Sonia:
Tailored to yourself, you know, the best way, you know, whatever is more suitable to you. But at that time it was like this degree or this other one, right? So, then I moved to Madrid. I was still in Telco, and then after a few years in Telco, having my two kids there, at that time, I moved into logistics. And then, but the situation was like, this is not me. This is not what I like. I mean, I always have to do things the way other people want and sometimes I don't agree, and I'm not saying I'm right, but it's just that, you know, things that you would like to do in a different way. And sometimes you don't get the freedom to even speak about it, right, or to discuss it. So then I decided to just go freelance.
Sonia:
That was in 2012. So it's been a while. And so I set up this company with this partner of mine, and we were working together for a few years until this good opportunity came up which is, it was Sketchin, which is one of the biggest design studios in Europe. They wanted to open a business unit in Spain, and they wanted me to run it. And it was starting with a big, big project in [inaudible] which is a huge electricity company, global. But this was the company in Spain. So, it was a very big project going on there. It was not going really well in terms of expectations management, stakeholders management and stuff. So, I just went into it, straight into it, like half the project...
Clare:
Forward it all out.
Sonia:
Wow. That was amazing. I mean. But yeah, I mean, it kind of worked out the way. And so then I stayed managing the business unit for a couple of years, but then this new CEO came in, someone who didn't understand anything about design, didn't understand anything about customer experience. He thought that we were just, you know, selling smoke, like we say it. So, you know, he said, well, I'm not going to help you guys because I don't really know what you do, and I don't really care.
Clare:
Oh my god.
Sonia:
Yeah. That was a great message coming from a CEO. Yes. So I said, okay, well, we are living. So, basically, he closed the business unit. And at that time I said, I already knew I wanted to be freelance, but now I know that I want to do things my way because this is not right for employees or for customers or and I truly, truly believe in customer experience, truly believe in design. And I said this is what I want to do. So, that's when the pandemic just kicked in. That was because this business unit was closed, well, a month before the pandemic, February 2020. So then during the pandemic, apart from enjoying myself a lot playing with WiCX...
Clare:
WiCX.
Sonia:
What I did was, I created a set of this company. At the beginning, it was called Gowi, but then we had a brand conflict that we had to change.
Clare:
Yeah. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. Because it was... Somebody else had trademarked it hadn't they?
Sonia:
Exactly.
Clare:
So you had to change your name.
Sonia:
Yeah. And it was a record time. I mean, we had to change it all like in two months. It's good that we do that process, like, you know, as part of our [inaudible] and that we work on ourselves. You know, we do retrospectives constantly and see what we like, what we've done, what we want to be, how we can add more value. You know, we're constantly doubting ourselves, you know? And... Or criticising the way we do things. And it was good because at that time it was all kind of ready to change the brand and everything. But it was, like I said, in regular time. And, but yeah, it was going get on with it because we are like, we love action. So, but yeah, we still love action, but the name doesn't say it that way, and also, so yeah, that was during the pandemic and then, you know, since then, that's what I've been doing, working on designing customer experience, you know, strategic and service design, basically. So, yeah, it's been a long journey.
Clare:
And creating content in Spanish as well, right?
Sonia:
It what, sorry?
Clare:
Creating content in Spanish.
Sonia:
Yeah. Also, we are, we are creating as much as possible because we believe that we still need to, I'm not going to say teach, but we still need to spread the word, you know, about what customer experience is about because still some companies are not really into it. They don't really understand. We still come across many companies who have never been in a design thinking process, for example, which to us is so obvious. Right. But, you know, so we still need to, you know, help people understand what this is about, what the return comes, you know, how helping customers helps yourself. And, yeah. We are constantly creating content. Yes.
Clare:
Yeah. And in Spanish as well, though, right? So yeah, for anyone who's listening that is Spanish speaking, then definitely head over to the Akuyari page on LinkedIn and you'll be able to see panel debates, fireside chats. I love following it because I'm learning Spanish, so I'm starting to understand what your posts say now.
Sonia:
Yeah. We are also doing these interviews, which are called the 21 Minutes with Akurai.
Clare:
Yes. I'm coming to do one, aren't I? But not in Spanish.
Sonia:
Yeah, you are!
Clare:
Not in Spanish.
Sonia:
Yeah, I know. But obviously, we do most of them in Spanish, but we also do them in English. And it's about bringing people, for 21 minutes, to talk about, why 21 minutes? I don't know. Just came up with that. Don't ask me why. But, yeah. So we talk about different subjects and, you know, we've been talking about the role of the CX leaders in the companies and in the society about data, about CRMs, about everything, everything. And then, yeah, artificial intelligence. We've been talking about all sorts. And, you know, the guests that we're bringing are like you, top people. So, you know, we want to hear your opinions about everything.
Clare:
I have to live up to that now, being a top person. Gosh. And you've involved a few of our members as well, haven't you? I think I saw Laurene Boulon was going to be featuring on one from Planhat, and yeah, I just love the way that it all spreads out and seeing women starting podcasts and content like this, and then bringing their CX sisters from the community in, and all these collaborations just emerging everywhere. It's a joy to see. I know that there are a few members out there that started podcasts, and literally the first like four or five guests were all Women in CX. So, we're all helping one another to raise our profiles and amplify each other's voices now, which is just wonderful.
Sonia:
But it's not also because we are sisters, because we are in the same community or anything. I mean, there's a real interest in interviewing people in the community because they've got a lot to say. I mean, there are amazing profiles in there. Yeah. So, it's about listening to those people, you know?
Clare:
Totally, totally agree. But I think for me, what I realized though is there was like a circuit, and I was part of that circuit, we'd all be asked to speak, and it was a really small group, and it would only ever extend to this small group. So, for me, I was like, how do I help other women get into that circle and get onto the stage or the podcasts? And now it's amazing. People are coming to me saying, I want to increase the gender diversity of my podcast or my conferences. And I'm able to go to the community and say, right, ladies who would like an opportunity to be a keynote speaker, to be a podcast guest, and to write, to be featured in these lists. And now we're seeing such greater representation and we are being seen, I guess, as an organisation that can help to do that.
Clare:
Like, if I'd have thought two years ago that we could have seen that amount of impact and women starting their own stuff. Right. Okay. You're not letting me play in that playground. I'm going to build my own podcast and, you know, I remember Julie started her Francophone podcast in French and Melissa with The Retail Tea Break, and like now, they're getting great guests and it's just, yeah. It's just such an expansive and inspiring journey that has resulted in so many people raising their profiles and breaking into the top people rankings, right? So, I couldn't be happier about that, but anyway, back to you, back to your career story. So, okay. So yeah, so like, lived in the UK, went back to Madrid, had two kids in the middle, transitioned from Telco, found yourself in logistics, realised you didn't really like that, started something, got offered an opportunity that was too good to miss to start this business unit, which unfortunately didn't work out because the CEO and then the whole thing around Gowi and then Akuyari... That's quite some story. You've done a hell of a lot and achieved great things, but I'm sure there must've been some barriers or challenges you had to overcome to do all of that. What would you say is one of the biggest things that you had to get over in order to become the woman you are now?
Sonia:
Well, I would say there are quite few, and it's part of your growing of your, you know, process of getting more mature. I think age has got a lot to do with that, but it's true that one of the biggest fears is when you decide that you want to do things different, you don't want to be in a system where you're stuck to two walls and you think that there is more out there. That, you know, there are other ways, all the things to be done, then, you know, it's kind of scary thinking, yeah, but what's going to happen, you know, especially when you become freelance and you say, from now on, I just depend on myself, you know? And, it could be... I mean, it could go well, it could go really bad. And what am I going to do? Am I going to say that I've been trying, I've been off the market for two years, for example, trying to launch my company and then, you know, go back to corporate and saying, so what did you do in these two years? Right now, it will not be seen as so bad. In fact, it would be seen as something good because you've been trying to, you know, you're considered to be an entrepreneur.
Clare:
You've run a business, right? So, that can only be a positive thing, having got the experience of running an enterprise that is your own, like, that would be a positive, wouldn't it?
Sonia:
It could be...
Clare:
But the question would be, but why are you coming back to corporate?
Clare:
Yeah. That's one of the things, you know, obviously, it's good to fail, you know, it's good to make mistakes because that's when you really learn. But in certain cultures, or, you know, a few years ago it was not.
Clare:
I know what you're going to say.
Sonia:
It was not considered that good. It was considered a failure. So, you know, I mean, you know, it's good now. You know, it's very fortunate that right now, at this time, people who do that are considered entrepreneurs, are considered people, you know, with a drive to do things and, you know, is seen as positive.
Clare:
But also...
Sonia:
... Many years ago, it wasn't.
Clare:
Well, but there's also a flip side, isn't it? When you've been your own boss for a sufficient amount of time, I think there is a concern, can she or he work for somebody else again? I think at this point, I'm probably unemployable. I don't think I could work for anybody else because I'm so used to having things, you know, my own way, as in I'm leading, to go back to corporate and have that deference. I think I would really struggle if I'm totally honest with myself, I'd definitely be a better leader because of the experience I've had of running a start-up, for sure. But I don't think I could go back to the round hole anymore and be corporate, because I think I've changed so much as well. And there were a lot of things that frustrated me too, about working in big organisations, like having to stick to the guardrails and seeing things that fundamentally I disagreed with, that conflicted with my values sometimes, around people especially. So yeah, it could be...
Sonia:
I completely agree.
Clare:
...Double-edged.
Clare:
It's complicated.
Sonia:
I also consider myself unemployable now for a big corporate, because I could not, you know, exactly what you said. I mean, you have to follow the rails. And sometimes those rails don't go with you. It's not you.
Clare:
Probably shouldn't be saying this on a podcast, should we, just in case we ever want to go back. But we should be saying we would employ more...
Sonia:
Well, sorry, we take it back, you know, in case we need to. We'll let you know. We'll let you know. We're bringing a lot of value here because, you know, after leading companies for a while, after trying to find your own way, you know, after listening to the customers so closely, because they are your boss, you know, the customer is the boss now, there is no other boss in the middle. So yeah, we'll be bringing a lot of value into any organisation, you know. But yeah, that's the situation that it is right now. And so I would say in terms of, you know, difficulties or challenges, the one of not being scared, because at the end of the day, if you're working for a big company, you're getting paid a salary, but the day after you could be fired.
Sonia:
And then what? So it's not a security net either to be working for a company. Just because you're getting paid every month doesn't mean the next month you still will. So, you know, it's like, and also you got two hands. You got a brain, you got your drive and you got your energy and your passion. And with that, if you know what you're doing, if you know what you are offering and the value that you add, I'm sure you will find the customers who want to feel that value. So, it's just a question of work in your way and making sure that people understand how valuable you are and where, and for what. And, you know, not to be scared about who you are and what you can give. But yeah, that is something that I guess we all have to go through at some point, you know, thinking, yes, this is what I am, this is what I do very well, and better than other people because I do things better than other people. Other things I don't, but the things I know I do, then yeah, why not highlight them?
Clare:
You know? Yeah, and that's an important message, isn't it? Like knowing your strengths and really playing to them rather than trying to be something you're not or compensate for parts that you know, you're never going to be excellent at, or you'd have to spend so much time and effort and energy working on that part of your skillset that like, you would just waste time, right? Yes. So, finding your zone of genius, get absolutely immersed in that and know the value of that and be confident to lead in that direction because you can always build a team that helps to compensate for the things that you are not strong at, right. And, you know, the opportunity to hire people that are completely the opposite of you to do that and build a team that has that full skillset together. Yeah. I think is something that I didn't learn quickly enough, but I'm totally aware of now.
Sonia:
It is. That's the way it is. We all have our strengths and our values and also I believe that people feel scared about selling because there is probably this misconception about selling, which I don't agree with. You're not trying to force anybody to buy anything from you. What you're trying to do is help someone with something that you know how to do and you know the other person needs.
Clare:
Yeah. And I think for women it's even more difficult, and obviously we spend time with like over 250 women in our community who quite often share the same fears around self-promotion. Whether that's on the business side and looking to influence and get stakeholder engagement and look for promotions themselves, or whether that's they've got their own businesses and they want to go out and their one-on-one business. Like, there's this inherent fear in women that we shouldn't sell or promote ourselves too much because that might be frowned upon because we can't act like men in society's eyes because it's just perceived in such a different way. Like, guys could be shouting about their own success and achievements from the rooftops, and no one would blink an eyelid. But if a woman behaves the same way, people start to judge and think who does she thinks she is.
Sonia:
Look at her. She's pushy. Why am I pushy and you're not?
Clare:
Yeah. You get called pushy, you know, men get seen as assertive or confident, whereas we're somehow doing exactly the same behaviour, but being perceived as arrogant or like, and it's so wrong, but I think we have to really let go of other people's perceptions in order to really put ourselves out there. And it's not always going to work, and you're not going to be for everybody. And I get that. But if we always think about that like, minority of people who are never going to approve of us or going to judge our behavior, we're never going get to the jobs or the people or the leaders or the clients that will really appreciate us for who we are, because we would've been sat like a little mouse being quiet about our success and our achievements. So, yeah. Definitely. I'm massively encouraged by the amount of members I now see posting on LinkedIn who didn't when they joined, and, you know, shouting about their achievements and their successes and asking for the pay rises and the promotions, knowing their own worth, and feeling that encouragement because yeah, I guess the more we do act like that and just say, we don't care what you think, the more it's going to become normal, right?
Sonia:
Enough. Enough of low profile. Enough. You know, I mean, why low profile? I mean, some people out there have amazing high profiles. So show it, you know, why be scared about that. And it doesn't matter whether it's your boss or a customer...
Clare:
It's the fear of judgment though, isn't it, that's what holds us back. Like I know there are times that I massively regret, like, I wrote a book that I never published because one person told me that it was too feminine.
Sonia:
What's wrong with that?
Clare:
No, I know that. And I went on to found the Women in CX community. So definitely going to publish that book at some point because I think I'm incredible to be able to do that. But the fear, the fear of putting that book out into the world and getting judged the same way as this person judged me, petrified me. So I just didn't do it. So I spent, you know, months and 125,000 words just went and got filed because I was too scared for the world to see my thoughts on paper.
Sonia:
Wow. Well, I mean, if you think about it, in this world of us in CX, it's mainly women, and so why are we so hidden? I mean, it should be, you know, a majority of women in everything related to CX because we are out there. I mean, it's not something we are requesting. It's the fact, right?
Clare:
The people that are being seen and in the leadership positions are men. So, that's why we exist together, isn't it? Anyway, I'm just conscious of the time, Sonia, and we've got to get into the main thrust of the conversation, which is our shared passion of customer experience design. So, you know, you and I have had so many chats and discussions around the fact that, you know, we're both obsessed with great design, both got kind of backgrounds in service design, experience design, product development, and have fashioned our own methodologies from a number of sources to create what we've been able to do for our clients, or in my case, now for the community. But I know that you really wanted to zero in on specifically the importance of research in co-design and at the start we were talking about, you know, the research and co-design that we did as a community, but, you know, more broadly, more generally, how important great research and discovery is. So, I think the first question I'd love to ask you is about what that first stage of research should look like. I know the automatic assumption for many is to choose quantitative research and surveys first, but what are your thoughts? What should come first? Qualitative or quantitative research?
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Sonia:
Well, I would definitely go for the qual first, because...
Clare:
Yeah. Do you want to just explain just in case anyone's listening and they don't know what qual and quant is, what's the difference between qualitative or quantitative research?
Sonia:
Alright. Okay. Well, basically the core research is more based on listening and understanding, like in an open way, just for you later to go and find out, you know, what is driving that person, what the motivations are, what the true feelings, trying to go deep down into why someone behaves the way he or she behaves, right? Where the quant research is more about usually a survey, where you ask a few questions and people answer you to those questions. So yes, you get numbers, you get percentages, but what you're doing is pre-judging what the other person is going to answer because you don't know everything that is in that person's head unless you have a conversation before. So the questions that you're asking might not even be relevant because you don't really know, you know, what the person is thinking. So, yeah. I don't know if it's clear the difference or what the way it's doing.
Clare:
Yeah. I just tend to keep it simple and say you can't count the outputs of qualitative research. You can't put percentage or a number around it. Whereas quantitative is just about data points, isn't it? Like you said, percentages and numeric, but not, you don't really get to understand the why and the motivations or the needs behind any of that stuff.
Sonia:
Exactly. You explain it a little better than me. So, that's the thing. So unless, I mean, there are many, many companies that do it the other way and they first go for the quant because it's easier, obviously, just to send an email to lots of your customers, get lots of responses, get lots of numbers, you know, get graphics and excels and blah, blah, blah, to show internally what you've done. Right. Because it sounds big, right? But then what you get from that, if you try to validate it with a quote, you may realise that everything you ask in the first place was completely irrelevant, right? And you have to start from scratch. So, what we do is, and I believe, truly believe, this way is the right way, first you talk to people, you know...
Sonia:
You try to understand who your persona could be, but then you might break it all after you do the qual. It might come out completely different. But, you're based on something, you know, an idea that you might have, who your customers are. Then you start talking to them. You have a deep interview, you let them talk. Obviously it's all guided, but the person you're talking to, the interviewee doesn't feel it that way, because it's a normal, natural conversation and so then afterwards, you get all that info which is a lot more work behind the scenes than a quant research, a lot more because you have to go into the details, read behind the lines, you know? Try to understand feelings, motivations, you know, all that stuff. So then you work it and say, well, people who feel this way behave this way, or people who have these characteristics or social demographics behave this way.
Sonia:
Okay, fine. Whatever, you know, division you have to do. And once you have that, obviously you get hypothesis to validate and say, we believe that people who are like this behave this way or decide this way. Okay, let's validate that. But you go to the quant research, you do a survey with a focus, very, very clear focus saying, I want to validate this behavior out of these type of people. So then yeah, you might get percentages, numbers saying, yes, in fact, 90% of the people this way, or, or with these characteristics or whatever, behave this way or would like this or would enjoy this, then yes, you might use those numbers later to prioritise where do you go, where you don't, what you're going to use, what you aren't going to use, what initiatives are you going to implement, because they're based on numbers and that gives you security in terms of return and success. That's it. But sometimes we have this discussion with customers when they say, but why don't you guys start with a survey
Clare:
That Yeah.
Sonia:
Asking about what, I don't know what to ask, just if you're happy, okay, fine. We can ask about satisfaction about recommendation. But nothing is specific to validate what we believe is what we found out in the qual. So sometimes it's complicated to make people understand that this is the way, and also that you don't need to do 200 interviews when you're doing a core research because, you know, this saturation of a speech that, you know, the marginal information that you get on the next interview is not worth it anymore...
Clare:
It's like six, isn't it?
Sonia:
Yeah, it's about that.
Clare:
Six is the magic number.
Sonia:
Seven.
Clare:
Yeah. Six or seven. Yeah, well obviously I agree. I think it is also the difference between innovation and improvement, right? So, a lot of organisations don't have innovation mindset or capability, so all they ever do is continuously improve, but when the space is opened for, well, maybe we could do something different, that you have to have that qualitative research about needs and motivations and goals to be able to inform how you can beat them, perhaps differently. And I'm a massive fan of qual, quant, qual, qual, qual. Stages and iterations of hypothesis and validation, but also quantifying demand I think is also important.
Sonia:
Yeah.
Clare:
Like how many, you know, trying to come up with like things that are similar in people's needs and motivations so you can group them into segments, for example. But then being able to test that theory and I love co-design for that reason because you can involve people in qualitative research through generating ideas and developing ideas together. Which is, I think, the ultimate form of qual for me. You know, involving people in actually coming up with concepts. But you're still going to need to test the interest in that but it doesn't necessarily need to be by a survey. Like there are things you can do with AB multi-variant testing. You could put two sales pages up and target different people with them and see which appeals and how many clicks you get before you commit to actually spending time building out that thing.
Sonia:
It's about going small, testing small. You know, see what happens without fear. It's about without fear, you know, I mean some, even some customers, some companies are scared of talking to their own customers because they say they...
Clare:
Don't want to find out!
Sonia:
No, they don't want to find out what they're going to say. And also they say, oh, but we are going to bother them. It's like, bother them? No. Many customers are like so happy about talking to you so, you know, don't close the doors because people actually want and volunteer to speak to you. So people want to talk, they want to have a conversation with you. So, you know, don't be scared and also don't be scared about what they say because you know, all that will definitely help you improve and also let your customers know that you are in the process of improvement, which we all appreciate at the end, you know, it's like, well, I deal with this company, they're not perfect, but I know they're constantly trying to get better. That's enough for me.
Clare:
Yeah. I appreciate it.
Sonia:
I'm not expecting you to be perfect, you know? But at least the mindset of trying to get better or to get better for me at the end of the day. So, you know, I mean it's a feeling that all customers appreciate.
Clare:
Yeah.
Sonia:
So, we shouldn't be scared and also not scared about testing and you know, testing a group, you know, a control group and saying, see what happens. You know, companies, I mean we all know companies and we are all customers of companies who do that constantly. And we used to it and we see that the website changes one day, for example, like you would say, an AB test and all of a sudden I get this new website and you get another one and it's like, oh wow. They change it and then, you know, they feedback, they get this by how you're moving it or how, you know, you contact them and say whatever, but why not? It doesn't surprise us so much anymore. You know? Companies innovate constantly and we're used to it, so why not ourselves?
Clare:
Yeah, I totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah. But there, I suppose, there are limitations, aren't there? Because there are certain types of people who love contributing to research, certain people who will turn up for free snacks and a 50 quid voucher. So being able to make sure that that kind of sample is representative of real people rather than just people that are really like, super willing to get involved.
Sonia:
There's that theory that if you put 10 people together trying to represent the group, there's a high probability that that group will represent reality, just by the nature of the fact it's 10 people.
Sonia:
It's just by probabilities, I mean, what's the probability of you getting 10 serial killers when you're trying to, you know, do research on a customer, on a company's customer database.
Clare:
That's a funny example. I'll remember that one.
Sonia:
The chances are very slim. So yeah, there will probably be a representation of your real database. So, you know, just obviously you have to look into it and make sure that you have, you know, proper representation, at least for the variables that you can control. But other than that, come on. You know...
Clare:
We could go down a rabbit hole on representation and inclusion and we won't do that because I've got a podcast coming up with Christine Hemphill where we're going to really deep dive into inclusion in research. So we will stop that there. But I've really enjoyed the conversation today, it's been super fun to catch up, to reminisce over the last three years of our journey together and, you know, just to see how far you have come with your agency, but also just to have a little bit of a geek about research in customer experience design together. But now it's time to close this episode I'm afraid. So, I wondered what your top takeaway from the conversation, or maybe one piece of advice you'd like to leave our listeners with. What would you say to them, Sonia?
Sonia:
Okay. I would say two things. First, don't be afraid. You are very valuable, you have your strengths and you know them, so just show them. Okay. don't be scared by anything. And, the second one, more professionally speaking is again, don't be scared about doing qual research, about talking to your customers, about getting into really deep interviews and conversations because you're going to get so many insights and it's going to give you so much information for you to improve. Let them know that you're trying to improve. Let them know that you're trying to do better for them. And that is sometimes more than enough. You don't need to be the best, you just need to show them you're trying to be the best for them and that message gets through. So yeah, that would be my only two.
Clare:
That's lovely. Well, gracias for your time today and thank you to everybody who listened or watched along today. It's been great and I can't wait to carry on our conversations with the community. So, that's it for today. We'll see you all next time. But for now!
Sonia:
Bye.
Clare:
Bye!
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world's first online community for women in Customer Experience, please check out www.womenincx.community/membership.
Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to one of our community members from Moscow about the connection between well-being and customer and employee experience. See you all soon!
