Clare Muscutt talks with Susannah Simmons about removing barriers to adoption during digital transformation by considering user well-being.
Clare:
Welcome to the 6th episode of the sixth series of the Women in CX podcast – a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects. I'll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today's episode, I’ll be talking to an incredible community member from Stoke-on-Trent, in the UK.
She helps SaaS companies turn new customers into loyal ones and believes that software is like medicine, you only get the benefits if you use it properly. With over 20 years of experience in software implementation, business development and learning and development, she helps her clients to take a human-centred approach to onboarding, educating, and supporting their own clients. Her passion for the people side of digital transformation brings harmony to the process through empathy, acceptance, and realism. Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest, CX sister, Susannah Simmons.
Clare:
Hi, Susannah.
Susannah:
Hi, Clare.
Clare:
It's wonderful to have the Software Adoption Doctor on the Women in CX podcast. Welcome.
Susannah:
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Clare:
And welcome to everybody who's listening or watching wherever you are. We are so glad you're here, too. So, Susannah, can I ask you the question I ask every Inspiring Women in CX podcast guest and that is to start with telling the audience how you found your way to the Women in CX community and how it's going so far for you.
Susannah:
So, I found the community, I believe, via LinkedIn and because I followed sort of all the customer experience hashtags and things, it came up on my feed and I was very much interested in learning more and supporting women in cx. And yeah, I applied to be a member and haven't looked back, let's put it that way. I love the community. I love the variety of people. So I've met some amazing people already. So a really good mix of self-employed people, consultants, and so on, like myself, but also people who are working in different industries and employed roles and just the resources that are available to us as members have been fabulous. But then also I think that the big thing for me, in addition to meeting new people and networking and so on, there've been some great opportunities for me. And this is one. But also, thanks to you and the community, I've had the opportunity to secure a speaking position. So that's coming up next month, which is very exciting. Sort of being introduced to other people for other opportunities like that as well. So yeah, there's just so much for all of us as members and also, it's good fun and everyone's really supportive as well. So it really is a community.
Clare:
That's so lovely to hear. And also all credit to you as well, because when I post those opportunities that people are now coming to me asking, we want to increase our gender diversity at our events and on podcasts and things, you put your hand up and I think that's also an important part, right? Of taking the risk and going, I want to do that, rather than sitting quietly. But also you've brought so much to the community as well when we talk about resources. You know, you came and delivered a webinar to explain the topic we're going to be talking about today to our members and bringing your own kind of perspective and dynamic that is different to most traditional CX pros. So, thank you for taking part, getting involved, putting your hand up and contributing. We really appreciate you.
Susannah:
It's my pleasure. Thank you.
Clare:
Yay. So, I'm sure our listeners would love to know the story of the Software Adoption Doctor and how you got to where you are today. What was your career journey like?
Susannah:
So, I'll try and keep it brief. So, I actually started out in training, so longer back than I really care to remember, I ended up being in a training, I suppose a training admin department, but actually my skillset lended itself very well to improving the processes and supporting my colleagues in that admin team in terms of improving those processes and it was actually thinking about it, it was a customer-facing sort of admin team. We were responsible for booking people on courses and so on, but I was very much the go-to person when it came to the tech stuff as well. And so as I was improving these processes, I was teaching them how to sort of use things like Word and Excel better. I was always the one that fixed the photocopier, that kind of thing.
Susannah:
So yeah, I've never shied away from the technology and I always got really good feedback about sort of how patient I was and supportive and how I made what to some people seemed very complex, actually seem quite simple. So then I ended up kind of exploring this idea of becoming a trainer and it kind of felt like a logical sort of first step to become an IT trainer. So that's what I did. And then I ended up sort of in a variety of roles, I suppose. So, I started out sort of classic IT training in terms of Microsoft Office and so on. But then I left the organisation I was with and I ended up going into financial services in an organisation. It was during sort of a bit of a pension crisis time, and they were having to do a whole big pension review and they had to track all the data.
Susannah:
So they brought in this tracking system that everybody was really fearful about because it felt like this big brother situation. And so it was then, I suppose, was a key time for me of realising the importance of human behaviour, human emotions, which has always been an interest of mine. I've always been interested in psychology and sort of neuroscience and actually this whole idea of, well, you know, let's take a walk in the user's shoes, you know, this isn't about us trying to monitor what they're doing and when they're going for toilet breaks and those kind of things. It was actually, the reason is because we needed the data around that pension that was being reviewed and when it's being picked up and put down, and how much time was spent on it and by whom.
Susannah:
And it was about getting those key messages about the why over to people. So, I really enjoyed that. So that, I suppose kind of took me through a lot of experience, I suppose on the customer side of things when it comes to software and software adoption. And then I spent a good chunk of my career working on the supplier side and actually seeing it from the other side of kind of selling the software in and then trying to get people to use it and some of the challenges around that and working with sales and support teams and some of the siloed working that comes out of that, and some of the frustrations and them thinking about "Yeah, but it's straightforward. It's easy. You're the experts" and so, so yeah.
Susannah:
So, I suppose that's kind of where it came about is that using that experience of both sides and actually my firm belief that software companies really have a responsibility to be part of that adoption journey. And actually it's in their interests to, you know, to build that customer loyalty, to build their recurring revenues and so on. And so it's, you know, it's time and energy well spent in my view, but so often you'll see something sold in and then it's the, the client that sort of has to... They're left to do that, or they pay another company, like an external consultant to help with the adoption piece integration. Whereas, you know, actually the software companies are potentially leaving money on the table, but also, you know, they can deepen those relationships. They can learn a lot by going through that process with their clients if they kind of put the effort into doing that. So, I suppose that's where I got to, where I am in terms of the Software Adoption Doctors. So I really focus on supporting those software companies to be doing a better job.
Clare:
I know we're going to come and talk about this shortly again, about well-being, but you also have a second business, right?
Susannah:
I do, yes. Yeah, I missed that bit out, didn't I? So, when I first left the corporate world, I was a little bit lost and I hadn't decided on the idea of the Software Adoption Doctor at that point. But I had, I did go on a bit of a personal fitness journey. It was post having a child, had a bit of weight to lose and so on. So, I was working with a trainer, doing her sort of boot camp program. Anyway, I left corporate world, didn't have an income coming in anymore, but I still wanted to keep up the fitness side of things. So, I did a bit of an exchange of services with her, and that ended up leading to me actually becoming a fitness instructor. So, it's 10 years this year since that happened. So yeah, so I'm also the Feel Good Fitness Coach, so I work as sort of B2C in that sense, helping people who realise that they're not getting any younger, they realise they're not getting any younger, but they want to live as long and as well as possible. So, it's really about developing healthy habits.
Susannah:
Yes, there is a lot of crossover in terms of what I talk about in terms of well-being, both, you know, as a fitness coach and as a Software Adoption Doctor, which people might be a little bit surprised about. But yeah, it's all about behavior change and habits, so, yeah.
Clare:
Well, all right. I've got one more question to ask you, and then we're going to dive right into that connection, that relationship and how that applies to customer experience. But what would one big challenge or barrier you've had to overcome be in order to become the woman you are today? Is there anything you can pick out in that long career journey that's something of value that our listeners can learn from?
Susannah:
Yeah, so it's actually, the thing that springs to mind is quite early on in my career. So when I kind of made that decision to become a trainer. Behind that is I suppose a more personal story of I was always known as the shy quiet one and the label I didn't particularly like. So, I challenged myself. And so how'd you do that? How'd you build your confidence? Well, you put yourself in front of a room of people and, you know, become a trainer for a living? It's not what everybody would do, but that was the way that I went about it. So, that was what I did. So, that was early twenties that really sort of boosted my confidence. But then with that then came, I suppose, an additional challenge in terms of, you know, competence wasn't enough as a trainer.
Susannah:
So I knew my stuff in terms of, you know, the Microsoft Office Suite and so on. But I also was disadvantaged a little bit of being very young looking. Unfortunately, that phase has now passed, but back then, you know, I used to still get asked for Id on a fairly regular basis and so on. And so being up in front of a room of people in credibility. And so there was the, I had the competence, you know, the putting myself in front of the room and becoming a trainer gave me the confidence. And then it was about sort of building credibility and those, I suppose, those three things have really served me well throughout my career. And then I suppose more recently, I would add, with everything that I do, I'd actually add empathy, but it's not a C so I'm going to say compassion instead so that I can have all the C's, but it's about being compassionate.
Susannah:
And that comes back to, you know, what we were just saying about being able to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, and that's one of the reasons why I continue to sort of put myself outside of my comfort zone. I continue to learn new things so that I never forget what it's like to be new to something and to be a learner, because I think that's so important. And as we just said, some of those people who are maybe in the software companies, for example, that know their product inside out, they forget what it's like to see it for the first time.
Clare:
Not naturally be a technologist.
Susannah:
Yeah. So, I suppose I never want to forget what that feels like. So, I do a lot of my own sort of behind the scenes stuff with my business, because again, it takes me on that journey on a regular basis. So, I get frustrated with not being able to find the information that I need or it not being particularly clear and all those sorts of things. So, I go on that journey on a regular basis.
Clare:
Yeah. And I can always rely on you to point out if there are any user well-being issues in my customer journey. Like, well, my Calendly wasn't working and I was just going to ask you a question about why you attracted that label, which isn't cool to be labelled anyway, but were you naturally introverted, would you say? Is that your natural... So much kudos for you then anyway. But to be naturally introverted and then choose a career path where you're standing in front of rooms of people and training people, that's against your nature, isn't it, to become who you are today.
Susannah:
Yeah.
Clare:
How do you manage that balance, the balance with yourself around naturally being introverted and then being expected to the extroversion of what typically comes with training?
Susannah:
Yeah. And it's interesting. You will find quite a lot of trainers are introverted, and we do learn to sort of get that balance, and we get a buzz from the training room, but there's also that, and this links very nicely to the whole well-being topic of knowing what drains you and what fires you up and so on. And you have to be quite careful about how much you commit to. So, I know for me that I then need to be able to have time to myself, and I also need to make sure that I don't put too much training delivery in my diary, because that will burn me out very quickly. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I think the other thing actually, in addition to being introverted that I just thought of, about being sort of shy and quiet is also a fear of failure.
Susannah:
And so not necessarily wanting to put myself out there for fear of getting things wrong. I know that was a big thing for me as a child, you know, I remember from my school days and so on, I didn't like to get things wrong. But actually, and so that's another thing that I've really learned over the years of actually, you know, trying what's the acronym of fail first attempt in learning, and so that's a big thing for me. So now I just treat everything as an experiment and go, well, it hasn't failed. I've just learned something new. So that's been a big thing as well.
Clare:
Yeah. I had a whole conversation with Natasha den Dekker for another podcast episode about you have to fail to succeed because if you spend your whole life in the safe zone, you're never going to learn enough to be able to progress. I'm a snowboarder, so I remember I felt so frustrated learning how to snowboard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. You just fall over constantly. But I remember the instructor saying to me, if you're not falling over, you're not trying hard enough, you're not pushing yourself enough to give it a go. But also, it is those difficult times where you do feel that you do learn. Right? Because when I always get uncomfortable when I'm too comfortable. Not that that's happened for a long time since I'm had a start-up, but recognising like, if this, you know, things have just got a bit too easy, a bit too, yeah, like comfortable, then that's the sign for me that I'm probably needing to look to start to do something different or take the next step.
Clare:
Definitely not there right now. It's a constant learning experience for me right now, but we're getting comfortable with feeling uncomfortable because that's actually a good thing, because that means I'm in a growth period where if I don't feel entirely comfortable, that means I'm developing. And that was a huge mindset shift for me. Because I used to feel so uncomfortable when I was uncomfortable and hate it. And think being out of my comfort zone as I recognise it now is a bad thing. I'd feel unsafe. I'd feel like I was in danger and I was also afraid. So I totally, totally get you. And the last point I was just going to pick up on was that experience that I also understand of being young and female and being taken seriously even though I had bags of credentials.
Clare:
That there was just an automatic assumption because I was a young woman and I was a very feminine young woman in corporate environment, that sometimes people would automatically assume that I wasn't going to be taken seriously, but they'd quite often ask me to make tea and take notes and yeah, that was a big confidence knock for me. And also being a young woman with an opinion was frowned upon, and I felt a lot of the time like I would see another graduate, same age as me, that was a guy, and he would demonstrate a behaviour like speaking up and get praise, and then I would do something and express my opinion. And it was like, who do you think you are? So yeah. So that really, really resonated with me.
Susannah:
There's one client that really sticks in my mind from my day. So I was managing the education services department of a large international organisation. So I was responsible for Europe and there was one client, he was a male, older than me, and he just, you know, my name is Susanna, and some people, you know, will often ask me, are you a Susanna or do you prefer to be called something else? He just automatically made this assumption that I was a Sue. You know, he called me Sue, really familiar. And then he treated me as if I was just a glorified admin person. And I used to sometimes sit there in frustrated moments and be like, I'm managing a multi-million part of a business and I'm responsible for these trainers and the sales and the marketing, all this stuff and the operations and he's treating me like I'm just an admin person that just, and just an admin person makes, is a bit derogatory or admin people. I actually quite enjoy admin and you know, I've got a lot of respect for people that work in administration roles, but there was just something in there that niggled me about it. And as you can tell, it stuck with me that just sometimes people make these assumptions about how they can treat you and so on. And yeah, there are still some things that need to change because I think that would still be the same today. And we're probably about 10, 15 years on.
Clare:
You've just given me a flashback actually as well of being at a client event when I was working in B2B and quite inebriated middle-aged male client walking over to me and being like, who's PA are you then when I was Head of Department. But it's an automatic assumption. You're young and female, you must be somebody's, yeah. Yeah. Not that there's anything wrong with being a PA, but it was just the assumption that bothered me. Anyway, so let's move into well-being then. So, I was thinking whilst you were sharing some of the insights earlier about these connections, I guess, I have a bit of a hypothesis around digital transformation failures and failures to adopt the technology, particularly I think in a B2c environment, and also behind the scenes with employees...
Clare:
Struggling to adopt technology, that there's definitely a huge connection between success and adoption. And, as you pointed out, it's frequently not invested in enough sufficiently, and from a vendor point of view, it's a dump and run. So occasionally, but also, what businesses often do, and I see this frequently in customer experience or especially from contact centers, is they pull out the labour that was allocated to the benefits case for implementing the technology in the first place pretty quickly before there's been chance to bed in. So, the knock on impact on customer and employee experience can be disruptive at best and damaging at worst. So I'd love to dive in a little bit more deeply into these connections between software and adoption and well-being. But it really resonated with me when you came and did the talk for the community about this perspective of, especially in B2B, that quite often the focus on customer experience is on the client or the buyer, and that may not be anything connected to the user or the person that's actually having to use the technology on a day-to-day basis. So, could you, for the listeners in a kind of short version of the webinar, just explain this perspective on user well-being at a high level and then we can dive a little bit deeper into that?
Susannah:
Yeah. So I'll actually use an example, not exactly the same one as I used in in that session because I just think I can summarise it a little bit more quickly. And it's actually not a B2B scenario. My husband and I recently bought a new electric car. Now actually in the situation there, the customer was my husband and he was driving that purchase, excuse the pun. And yeah. And so, you know, the main conversation between the dealer and my husband, you know, about this car, but actually from a user point of view, I am the one that does the majority of the driving. I'm the one that's out on the road. So I'm the user in that case. So, straight away we've got this example of where your customer isn't necessarily your user.
Susannah:
And so my husband, he loves his gadgets, so, you know, he's dead excited about all of the sort of latest great whistles, this technology that's going into this car. And he loves things like the sort of autopilot type options and all that kind of stuff.
Clare:
The Tesla!
Susannah:
Yeah, but we didn't buy a Tesla though. But then for me, the key things for me are, and we already have an electric car, but we have quite an old one that the range is terrible, wouldn't get beyond Staffordshire, where I live, you wouldn't get beyond there in it. So, for me, one of the key things for me was about, you know, how far can I get in this car? And then also things like, you know, has it got a heated seat for when I'm driving in the winter?
Susannah:
How quickly can I defrost it when I've got to get up at the crack of dawn to run my fitness sessions so that I'm not outside scraping for ages, all these little bits and pieces, these are things that are important to my well-being. And particularly the range thing, because actually, that's quite a stressful situation. Me trying to get on a client's site by a certain time. I've already got things like the traffic and everything to factor in when I'm planning that journey. So to have an extra thing to factor in of will I need to charge my car up on the way is a big deal for me. And so, you know, to a certain extent, those conversations that the dealer needed to be having is okay, yes. I'm understanding the customer, the person that's got the money is probably going to make the ultimate decision.
Susannah:
But actually understanding the user and what was important to me is also important because, you know, whilst my husband might recommend them, because obviously it's not a recurring revenue thing with the car sales, but it is about referrals. It's about repeat purchase. So, when we want another car, are we going to go back to them? So yeah. You know, my husband might say, yeah, the car's great. Yeah, the dealer was great because of his experience and wellbeing. But me longer term being the main user of this car, what am I going to be saying and what could that dealer have been doing to make my experience better? And to sort of, and also on an ongoing basis, so this is this idea of well-being, is that experience, if you look up the definition of experience, it's a moment in time.
Susannah:
And, you know, we talk about touchpoints, don't we? Well-being is much more an ongoing state, and you can see that in the car analogy of actually that car plays into a lot of things in my life and sort of my general mental state of is it going to be stress? Is that car going to be stressing me out because actually...
Clare:
It can drive itself, but I'm going to have a cold bum.
Susannah:
Exactly. Oh, am I going to be getting up at quarter past five tomorrow morning because it's forecast to be frosty? Or, you know, I'm going to that client down in the southwest...
Clare:
Might not make it.
Susannah:
Yeah. I might not make it. Or I've got to stop twice which means I've got to leave at three. Those sorts of things. And so I know, are there things that that dealer could do to be helping that? So, for example, I know there could be an option to include some kind of charging package or recommendations of what apps to use. And I know the information around which charging points are the best, you know, because they're not all the same if you don't know all of this stuff. Obviously, having had an electric car for a while, I know some of the pitfalls and the things to look out for, and we've done our research, but actually could that dealer sort of save me a bunch of time and stress and worry by doing extra bits and pieces to improve that experience and improve my well-being.
Clare:
So, why do you think it's so important to consider customer, user and employee well-being when it comes to implementing technology?
Susannah:
Well, first of all, I think the three are very much interlinked. So, you know, we've already touched on the customer well-being sort of in that context were we're often talking about the buyer or we're talking about people like senior management and they are looking for, you know, a certain thing from that technology...
Clare:
Like cost, price.
Susannah:
Yeah. So, there'll definitely be that. But, and quite often it's, these days I'm finding it's quite often around the data, it's the MI that they can get out of it that allows them to make better business decisions. So, so yeah. That's really important. However, in order to get that, you've got to have that data going in effectively, and so therefore you've got... Your users need to be adopting and buying into using that technology to do that effectively so that the customer can then get their desired outcomes as well. So, straight away, you've got that interconnected piece with them. And then from, so from a, let's say software company point of view, those customers and users are then supported by the software company's employees, you know. And whether that's, you know, an account development or a customer success team looking after those key stakeholders...
Susannah:
Or whether it's maybe a customer support team that's dealing with support queries or it's a training team delivering that end user training, those kind of things, those employees need to be in a positive state and delivering a good service. And so their well-being is important to do that. And they need the tools and the skills and so on to do that, to feed into those customers and users. So, those people that can't see me won't know that I'm kind of drawing circles. So, I've got this sort of model that is three circles that basically shows that they're continuously moving because, you know, this is going on all the time and they're continuously feeding into each other. And then that's to me, I call it the model of business flourishing because I base it on a model of human well-being, and that's based on a book called Flourish. So, I've decided to call it Business Flourishing.
Clare:
Is that Martin Seligman?
Susannah:
Yes, that's the Martin Seligman book.
Clare:
Okay. I have to make sure we link that in the show notes as a resource that people should go and refer back to.
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Clare:
So, I suppose the audience is probably thinking, well, how can I adopt this way of thinking into what I'm doing? Is there any kind of like tips and advice about a process to follow to ensure that adoption is going to be easier for all parties?
Clare:
Well-being? Well-being, sorry. And I'll come back to digging a bit more into well-being in a second, but the adoption thing is at a practical level. What steps can you take to support, let's say in that digital transformation example, to ensure that it's kind of beyond acceptance, it's actively useful and embraceable and people can take that transition, whether they're a customer switching into digital channels or whether they're an employee taking on this new system that a company's bought, what can we do?
Susannah:
So, one of the big things you're looking for is you're looking for commitment, not compliance. And so you want to think about what's going to take people on the journey where they're going to commit to this change? And that's ultimately what we're talking about. We're talking about a change, and thinking about a behaviour change. And one of the big things about that is if you think about, from a behavioural science point of view, we talk about people kind of moving from a state of threats to reward. So, I know you want to move them away from threat and being threatened by whatever this change is and think about what's going to, to reward them, and, you know, we haven't got time to kind of delve into all the different sort of models and tools that we could use in that sense.
Susannah:
But in terms of, to answer your question in terms of a practical sense, one of the first things that I would start with is the why, you know, the key kind of reasons of why that change is being made, and then really understanding the stakeholders. And that's thinking about all of the different stakeholder groups. It's very easy to forget about certain stakeholder groups. So, for example, if I use a classic example from my world is working with CRM suppliers, quite often they'll be working with a marketing team or a sales team, but actually, both teams are impacted and you need all of them involved. So you want to do sort of a bit of stakeholder analysis and then stakeholder engagement and management and make sure you've got all the right people around the table.
Susannah:
And then that helps you identify what we call in the business analysis world, your senior users. So, then you can make sure that you've got not only your stakeholders from a business point of view, but your user stakeholders as well. So, then you've got representatives there that can actually give you an idea of what it's like on the ground of those people that are going to be using it and getting their input into things. And it's thinking about, so the next thing is kind of the familiarisation piece, because technology doesn't sit on its own, it sits within a context, and it's almost certainly any kind of digital transformation is going to impact processes. And so it's thinking about, well, what else needs to change and why is it changing? So, it's thinking about all of those things as well, and sort of what's the impact. So, how this links to the well-being piece is what is the impact of that change? Because it's very easy for people to be comfortable with what they know and to go...
Susannah:
It's very easy to sort of be in your, and we talked about it, you know, when you're in your comfort zone, and actually, well, I've always done it this way. And so it's like, well actually people are going to have to do it this way now. How are they going to feel about that? What is the impact of that? And, unfortunately, I'm sure you've seen this Clare, you know, sometimes the digital transformation that's happening to provide a better customer experience doesn't necessarily provide a better employee experience of those people that are, you know, picking up whatever it is in the background. And actually they're getting more frustrated. So the customer, the end customer might be getting a much smoother customer journey, but the stuff behind the scenes might actually be taking 10 times longer, because I know everybody's been focused on that customer journey and not the...
Clare:
The impact on the processes, that now it gives everyone else a headache who has to deal with that.
Susannah:
Yeah.
Clare:
So, just to bring in something that is from my experience, which is this tension between the business analysis approach, I always came in from the service design or experience design point of view, so, I would be pushing brands and businesses to be identifying the target experience that they'd want to offer to their customers in order to inform things like technology decisions and roadmaps, but the kind of conversation you're talking about with business analysis, typically it's requirements gathering, isn't it? And there may well be customer requirements in things like what they need to use it for.
Susannah:
Yeah.
Clare:
But that isn't a level of architecture that explains or defines experience. So there was always tension between me and business analysts.
Clare:
And usually we managed to work together and, you know, bring a different dimension to transformation that I think is really quite often missing because they would also pick up a load of stuff that I would never, which is, you know, the impact on processes, what else would need to change if that was going to happen? So, for me, I think, you know, being able to bring that vision together with really good stakeholder analysis, sorry, stakeholder management, business analysis, but being able to work together across experience, and the BA aspect is super helpful because, you know, my team might do something like user research about needs and goals that can help inform another perspective beyond requirements gathering about people, what people functionally need, which it tends to be more functional, doesn't it? Rather than perhaps bigger goal orientation. But there's a challenge that comes here, isn't there? Were often it's a technology selection that's been picked off the shelf to solve a business problem that's probably related to reducing cost or driving efficiency. It's very, very rare that this vision piece would happen enough in advance to inform the tech selection process along the way. That's my dream, like the future of customer experience is going to be having a vision that helps to guide and direct this kind of thing for everybody.
Susannah:
Yeah, and we share that dream. I think, you know, we've talked before, haven't we, that one of the big frustrations is when things are tech led. I know because, I suppose someone decides that it's, you know, a panacea that yes, this technology over here is going to solve all of our problems, and so lead with that and then everybody else...
Clare:
Or have got really great salespeople that do actually make it seem like that will be the case, but not the integration challenges that you might have with all your legacy systems and challenging culture.
Susannah:
Yeah, conversation about how sales teams, particularly in software organisations, should work would be a whole different podcast episode I think because...
Clare:
Come back for episode two.
Susannah:
Because again, I think that they need to be doing that upfront work of understanding a lot of that stuff and what that vision and things is rather than leading with the technology and the features. Because again, they do a better job of getting that product embedded within that organisation if you do it that way round rather than just leading with a tech solution.
Clare:
Yeah, and it's challenging because so much of the budget will sit in a D&T team and so many of those decisions get made with no one else in the room representing, that opportunity to influence. And it used to happen to me all the time when I worked in a gigantic retailer, I'd be like, oh, we've bought this 360-degree view of the customer and I would be like, what? Deal's already done. Like we're having it.
Susannah:
And then you are retrofitting, aren't you? You're just trying to kind of make the best. And I had that with an organisation that I was working for. Actually, it was the same organisation that I was managing the customer training side of things, and a new system got bought for managing customer training, but we went through a whole requirements gathering process, we reviewed sort of a number of vendors, and then it got to purchasing, and this is obviously a very simplified version of the story but...
Clare:
Yeah, but the procurement have a completely different set of KPIs, don't they? And hoops to jump through and success criteria for what makes a good procurement decision.
Susannah:
Well, the simplified version is they said, well, have you got something cheaper? The supplier said, well yeah, we've got this off-the-shelf model. Oh, we'll have that then.
Susannah:
All this time that we'd spent reviewing these vendors was a complete waste of time because we went for the off-the-shelf thing, which didn't work for us at all because the off-the-shelf was actually for an internal learning and development department, not an external client-facing department. That was, you know, selling training courses. Things have moved on a lot since then and you know, the options have improved, so then the project team were having an absolute nightmare trying to take this thing that no one had selected...
Clare:
Wanted, yeah.
Susannah:
And make it work because it had been bought and the business had had this expectation that it was going to provide these benefits when it wasn't fit for purpose for that, and actually, the funny thing was is that us as a European team, we'd moaned and moaned about the system we had and I got to the point that I said to my team, I bet you never thought that you would say that you wished you were hanging onto the old system because in comparison it was so much better. But from a well-being point of view, that was so painful, and actually a couple of people lost their jobs over it and it was no fault of their own. So, yeah. I learned a lot from that experience. Definitely.
Clare:
One of those moments we talked about that were painful, but we took a lot from.
Susannah:
Yeah, definitely.
Clare:
So, just to kind of summarise then, like you, I think it's just a really interesting perspective and I never heard it before. You are definitely the first person I've heard talking about thinking beyond experience and into well-being. So, just to summarise for the audience, why is that so important? Just to make sure we definitely got this concept because I kept saying, we'll talk about that, we'll talk about that, we never kind of really did dive into it. So, what is the difference between experience and well-being and why is it so important for businesses to start moving in this direction?
Susannah:
So, the difference is thinking about that ongoing state of wellbeing and so not just a single point in time, and it's not only sort of that one piece of well-being, it's those interrelated elements of well-being of customer, user, employee, and kind of keeping thinking about that and the impact of those things. So, you know, I suppose it's, you know, bringing those people together, it's the touch points in terms of with the people as well as the product, and all of those things are interrelated and that's what gives you your well-being. You know, the experience bit gives you what we call the positive emotion, and that's the P of Martin Seligman's model, if anyone wants to check that out. I've adapted the model a little bit further to be more applicable.
Susannah:
But yeah, the P is the positive emotion, but that's short-lived and it doesn't have a lasting impact. And what we want is that lasting impact. So we want to be thinking about other elements of well-being that will help our products and services have at that lasting ongoing impact that means that actually, people love using them. They're always using them. They, you know, they're always talking about them and it kind of enriches their lives. And I know I'm probably thinking kind of, I don't know, pie in the sky thinking of every product or service enriching lives, but I do strongly believe that actually if we give it thought we can think beyond just that transactional level.
Clare:
Yeah. And as you said earlier, then the knock-on benefits are going to be all the goals and objectives that businesses want in terms of recurring revenue and repeat purchase and referral and advocacy and all of that lovely stuff. But rather than that being a marketing strategy, it's something that actually comes from providing great experience and well-being over the long term. Love it.
Susannah:
It's almost like, oh, well-being's a bit too fluffy, a bit woo-woo. It's like, but actually, if you focus on the fluffy woo-woo, if that's how you view it, you can then get the hard data.
Clare:
Benefits. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Susannah:
Yeah.
Clare:
I always, I can't remember who I'm actually quoting here, but the scores take care of themselves, which was in reference to sports. But looking after the team, looking after the customers and employees in this case will mean that the scores take care of themselves. But too much focus is always on the scores and managing the scores and especially when it comes to customer experience, there's just way too much that goes into managing things like the Net Promoter Score over managing the experience.
Clare:
And the well-being I think particularly of employees, especially in contact centres where it's such a high-stress environment if you could just get 10% more over that way, there'd be a 50% increase in the impact.
Susannah:
Yeah, definitely. And to link to that, I think, you know, in my revised model of well-being and there's a T which is trust and you know, and trust comes up so much in terms of personal effectiveness, high-performing teams, high-performance business and so on. But actually, that trust element is really important to well-being. And you want trust, you want your customers and your users to trust you as a business. Your employees, but also your products and services. And so actually, that trust piece I know for me is key. And you know, if we think about it in terms of how are we building trust, then I think that can be a really helpful way to look at it.
Clare:
Yeah, and that's the Stephen Covey model, isn't it? The Speed of Trust as well. The competency is like one aspect, isn't it? Competence, credibility, but without trust, things will never go faster. So yeah, also in terms of us as professionals seeking to create these changes that have a lasting impact that is not disruptive, it's the actual beneficial one. I think trust rings through everything. Is there a way our listeners can read more about your models? Do you have them available on your website or anything?
Susannah:
I have a book coming out.
Clare:
Oh, I was going to say, you should write a book. We'll keep our eyes peeled for that.
Susannah:
Yeah, they will be available in that.
Clare:
Amazing. Well, is there one final thought you'd like our listeners to take away from this conversation before we close up today?
Clare:
A piece of advice or takeaway from this conversation. Anything you like?
Susannah:
So, the piece of advice I think for me, particularly off the back of what we've been talking about is, you know, and it's linked to that stakeholder piece, is have those conversations, reach out to the different stakeholders, and try and open up those conversations and get everybody talking and getting everyone around the table and put in the effort to sort of understand their view of the world, and then kind of put forward your own to kind of get that shared understanding, to be able to collectively move forward. Because ultimately, everybody really wants the same outcomes, which is, you know, which is the best for the business and for the people involved. So yeah, and people can shy away from having those conversations because it's hard and it's challenging, you know, and I'm guilty of that myself, and I'm still very definitely a work in progress. But yeah, I think that would be my biggest advice is yeah, have those conversations and kind of involve all of those stakeholders even though, you know, you're not necessarily going to want to hear what they've got to say or you might not agree.
Clare:
Totally hear you there. So, thank you so much. I think just to close the podcast, kind of from where we started when you were talking about the skill that you have for making complicated things simple, you demonstrated the aptly today, so thank you.
Susannah:
Thank you.
Clare:
We'll be very excited to follow along and hear more about your book and yeah, it's just been awesome to be able to chat with you today and just explore that concept more deeply. Definitely, as I said, I've not heard anyone else talking about this. You're the first, so well done for being an innovator and bringing your thought leadership to light. And yeah, can't wait to continue to watch you fly with your speaking career as well.
Susannah:
Thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure and thanks again for giving me the opportunity.
Clare:
You're so welcome, and thank you to everybody who listened or watched wherever you are. We're always so glad that you are here and we'll see you next time. Bye for now.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world's first online community for women in Customer Experience, please check out www.womenincx.community/membership.
Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to one of our community members from Spain about the importance of understanding users in experience design. See you all soon!
