Clare Muscutt talks with Adi Tobias about CX in platform-based businesses and neurodivergence as a CX superpower!
Episode #304 Show Notes
Clare Muscutt – host:
Welcome to the fourth episode of the third series of the Women in CX podcast, a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us, and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects.
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt, and in today’s episode I’ll be talking with a woman whose neurodivergent thinking has created change in the organisations she has worked for. Let me introduce you to today’s inspiring guest. She started her career in the finance sector before moving into one of the first pureplay digital insurance companies. Realising her love for test-and-learn environments, she joined one of the world’s leading platform-based businesses and now heads up CX strategy and operations for Sub-Saharan Africa at Uber. Please welcome to the show CX sister Adi-Grace Tobias.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Hi, Adi!
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Hi, Clare!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Welcome to the Women in CX podcast. It’s so awesome to have you here.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s such, such an incredible pleasure.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And welcome to everybody listening at home, as well. So, I’m super excited to have Adi Tobias on the show. She works at Uber. And today, we’re going to have a really important conversation that centres around neurodiversity. So, strap yourselves in, ladies, and get ready for an exciting ride.
So, Adi, I’m going to ease you in gently to the Women in CX podcast and simply ask you…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Wonderful!
Clare Muscutt – host:
… what was your path into the world of customer experience?
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Sure. So, definitely not the most predictable path, I will say. I spent most of my career in very rigid, highly regulated industries such as financial services and kicked off my, you know, career in marketing. And so, I spent quite a bit of my energy learning about marketing and figuring out kind of what works, what doesn’t work. Why do strategies sometimes work and sometimes they don’t work? And along with that, a big part of what I found made marketing successful is engagement.
And so, that was really my gateway into exploring what it could be. I was employed once again in quite a highly regulated area but was given an opportunity by really great leaders to carve out my own role, and this role kind of sat between business analysis and marketing – which is a weird hybrid, very strange in many in many companies – but because of my experience in CRM and CRM systems, I was given this opportunity to kind of bring these two worlds apart. Because it was a B-2-B-2-C business, I spent quite a lot of time thinking about, ‘How do we engage with each of those stakeholder groups in the best way possible? And what other processes do we need to put in together, or supplement, these engagement triggers? How do we make this work well?’
I also learned from a very prestigious private bank the value of relationships and just sticking it out with customers, and then they have a cradle-to-grave approach, which is something that I’ve carried with me since the beginning of my career. And it’s really important for us to carve out those relationships where possible. If it’s a high-touch environment, look at ways in which you can carve out those experiences. So, it was a little bit of a stop–start with trying to figure out, you know, ‘How do I blend my love for engagement, my love for technology with my marketing background and marketing understanding?’ And once I ended up at an online insurance company, I was given the opportunity to figure it out. And I found Jeanne Bliss’s book on being the chief customer officer, and I was like, ‘Right! This is my story. This is how I’m going to rule the world.’
But I really found it so interesting, leveraging kind of wearable technology, thinking about like the Internet of Things, and just crafting out what it meant for me. What does customer experience actually mean, and how do I test and learn in a practical way that can help bolster me and encourage me to kind of move to having this be my everyday job?
And so, thankfully, in a highly regulated environment, I was given the opportunity to kind of spread my wings and figure things out. And because I was given that opportunity, I was able to get to kind of do what I love now, which is trying to find ways to meaningfully engage with customers on any and every kind of platform.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That is so cool! I was just like nodding along listening because it really resonated with me to think, you know, it wasn’t a piece of paper that had a job description on that you were being told what to do. It was like you were able to bring this marketing background and fuse it with business analysis – which I personally think is a huge part of being great at customer experience, being able to think in those different ways – and carve out a role and make it all your own.
I’ve definitely been in that situation, too. And I really, honestly, genuinely think these like hybrid approaches to CX – rather than kind of traditional frameworks, that kind of thing – with the way things are moving so rapidly, and especially with technology, we’re having to come up with different and better ways. So, I’m fascinated, going from like highly regulated industry in insurance, now into platform-based businesses, what’s it like working with CX in this space?
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Man! Crazy. Crazy. Crazy, exciting, and energising. I think it’s quite magical, actually, in that you learn business in a traditional fashion, and you cut your teeth in a traditional fashion, working in these businesses. And having work now at a platform-based business… which I don’t think it was meant to be a platform-based business, initially. It was meant to just be ride-hailing, and now it is a platform-based business. I think it’s incredibly exciting, not just from a CX perspective but from, I think, an end-to-end business perspective, because you literally have no restrictions... ‘Go where your team wants to take you or the technology takes you.’
And so, what I find to be quite special is that you’re able to test and learn really quickly. You’ll know what works and what doesn’t work in a heartbeat. And you’re able, I think – with using continuous-improvement frameworks and any other kind of operational-excellence tools – you’re able to pinpoint where things aren’t working well and tweak it up until it gets to a point that you’re happy with it. And I think that because platform-based businesses have so many fingers in many pies, there’s so many moving parts, and for someone like me with a brain like what I have, it’s kind of like magical because I don’t just have to think about one specific industry or one specific way of looking at a problem or thinking about customers. I can think about it in non-traditional ways and be like, ‘Hey, have we thought about doing this? Would we ever do this? Could we cross this bridge?’
And so, I find it to be very, very interesting and very energising, especially in the introductory phase. I think as it kind of grows into a more traditional business, it comes with more traditional problems, but just having been exposed to technology in this way now, I am sold, sold, sold, sold. Like, this is where I want to spend my time for as long as I can work or my brain will allow me to work. Yeah, I find it extremely exciting.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Okay. So, Silicon Valley tech-based businesses are a good place for neurodiversity, right? Good test-and-learn and experiment…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
In some ways! In some ways. I definitely think it contributes. I think working in a very simple kind of basic business model may not be as exciting, but I think it’s important to understand that for platform businesses, you still need to have the foundations right: you still have to have a good value proposition; you still have to be profitable; you still have to think about, you know, your operations and how you put systems in place for that; your brand is still important. So, the basics are still important, but once you have that, man, the world is your oyster! You can go wherever your brain wants you to go.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, it’s like opportunities for innovation are more embraced in that kind of environment, as opposed to feel like a huge risk in more traditional businesses. I know my background in like retail, for example, in a business that existed for like 125 years before I got there, like creating innovation and change in the kind of cultural environment for that sounds like a very different experience, so yeah.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And obviously, getting to work on my own platform-based business with Women in CX, I’m totally with you…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yay!
Clare Muscutt – host:
… being able to test, learn, innovate, kind of just iterate every time we learn something new in terms of like how I think is very exciting and very fun. So, tell me a little bit more about a moment that shaped you into the woman you are today.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Man! I think it would be important that I acknowledge my mother in this moment. If I don’t, I might get thrown off to the side. No, look, I think that I was raised in a way, in a very non-traditional way. I was raised to be super tenacious, and to keep pushing boundaries, and not to settle for anything less than what you deem to be the right thing.
And so, I’ve always found that to be quite a good motivator, especially in challenging environments. I definitely feel like, you know, having that as my foundation and the stuff that I use to kind of push through some of the difficult times... I mean, I started out in Carnaby Street in a little bit of like a travel insurance company. Back then, it was called internet marketing, where we did like reciprocal link campaigns. It was like really, really basic and really boring. But I think that opened up my mind and my eyes in a way to technology that I had not had the exposure to at that point. So, that was a big one.
And then, I moved on to kind of more traditional work and thinking about a career. And I think an important moment for me was being able to, you know, craft my own role in a company that has never done it before and to have incredible leaders guide me through it, help kind of structure sometimes my wild thoughts into a very corporate conversation that allowed me to progress in the way that I have – now, granted I’m not as formal as I was when I was working in financial services – but it still helped with the foundation.
And I think, you know, once I moved to an insurance company that only kind of administered insurance online, which had never been heard of. You could literally get an underwritten policy in 30 minutes; that was never done before. And I had the privilege of working with incredibly smart people and incredibly… the leaders were maybe not even traditional – non-traditional leaders is the word I’m looking for – they were super non-traditional in their approach to business, in their approach to people, and their approach to growth of their people that worked for the organisation. And so, that was a big moment for me, actually, where I was working at a start-up, and the job was essentially, ‘As the collective five or six of us, we need to build this thing into, you know, something that a large entity would want to acquire.’ I’ve never been faced with that before. And they said, ‘Here you go: blank sheet. Write what it is that you want to do, but let’s build this thing.’
And so, to me, I think that was probably the biggest opportunity and biggest moment in my life where I had to really think, ‘Goodness! What do I want for my career? What is really good for the business? And what will sustainable so that when, you know, we eventually sell off will continue still to tick on? You know, how do I build something that is sustainable, that is thoughtful, that is mindful, that is intentional?’ And so, I think that would probably be like the biggest point, but there have definitely been a sequence of opportunities.
And then, I think more recently, is my diagnosis as having ADHD. I mean, I was diagnosed probably about three-and-a-half years ago now. And so, retrospectively, a whole bunch of things make so much sense. I now understand why that was… why was that such a monumental moment for me? Why did I think that that was such a big deal? And the reason it was a big deal was because I could just let my brain go. I could write on whiteboards; I could paint whatever; I could literally build it and figure out whether it works. And I think that in itself was probably the biggest catalyst for helping me get to where I am now. And then, understanding my brain more is helping me carve out a more… maybe a specific direction for where I want to take this now. But I’m learning so much about this little brain of mine, and it’s empowering, super empowering, to know more.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, well, I obviously share very similar neurodiversity traits with you, but mine got picked up when I was a lot younger, and I just remember feeling like really other, especially at school, because I could like crack on and do all my work faster than anyone, but then I’d be bored so would quite often being trouble, standing outside the headmaster’s office regularly. And when there was like a level of like… I kind of reached a point, I don’t know, like, I was… I’d just had enough of education, I think… then, I just got labelled as…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… being disruptive, but I wasn’t. I just didn’t really suit some of the typical learning methods that you are forced into at school.
And it really resonated with me, hearing you talk about the blank-sheet-of-paper jobs because I think pretty much all my jobs have been that, apart from one very early on. But you know, being able to say like, ‘I’ve got this vision of what we could do with customer experience, and it is a bit different because yeah, you won’t see this written in a white paper anywhere. This is innovation. I’m fusing lots of different types of thinking here to come up with this approach and this strategy, and can we just try it?’ And it works, you know?
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Well, doesn’t work straight away… test, learn, iterate, build on what we do.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And yeah, I just really kind of feel a sense of, you know, what I was led to believe was something maybe that was a bit of a disability in other people’s eyes actually became my superpower and enabled me to do the things that I’ve done. So, it’d be great to hear about more about your experience of thinking differently. How have you been received? What have you had to do to try and maybe feel like you had to fit in? What have your superpowers brought you in CX?
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Well, look, I didn’t… I just thought in the beginning I was super charismatic... ‘Super charismatic. People are just… people are drawn to me. They want to work with me. They find what I say interesting and exciting.’ But in reality, working in a very formal environment was incredibly difficult for me. I constantly needed to look for things and ways to excite myself about my job, not because what I was doing wasn’t meaningful but because I just didn’t have the ability to see it through.
And so, there were strategies that I used, and I only now retrospectively understand why I did what I did. I would always find someone who appreciated my wild thoughts. Always. I somehow was able to find a champion in these very formal – stuffy sometimes – locations or businesses. Found a champion. They loved it. I was like, ‘Right, okay, so how do I now take my wacky, crazy ideas? Who do I go to to help me map it out in an acceptable manner? How do I do this? Okay, so now let me go and find another person who can help me do this in a way that I’m able to articulate what people need to understand.’ Now, having an understanding of comms and marketing was useful because I had some knowledge of what it is that people needed to hear and what, maybe, format was digestible for them. And then, we would go ahead and present. I will only present at the beginning, and I will only close off at the end. When it came to the middle bits, where it was super intricate, like I’d have a partner with me in there, and we would tag team and talk through it.
These are things that I found myself doing more than once. Every single location, I was like, ‘Right, you are good at detail. Awesome. I like detail; I just can’t focus on it for too long. So, let’s talk.’ And that was my method; that’s how I coped. I partnered with people who appreciated what my kind of way of thinking was and what my contribution was, and also it helped me learn some skills in how I can kind of, you know, build up or flex some of those weaker muscles for myself. And what I found is that early on… I loved colours, right? I mean, I’ve always loved colours. Like, if you think about back in the day in school like having a pencil case with many coloured pens, and crayons, and kokies was like my utmost best…
Clare Muscutt – host:
I still have mine here. I was going to say…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
I have colours galore!
Clare Muscutt – host:
Sure!
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Anything you can dream of…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Ah, the Post-it Note power.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
… it was always, always part and parcel of how I worked. And some people who would order the stationery would be like, ‘What is wrong with this girl?’ Like, ‘Why would she always request these random things?’ And I couldn’t tell them why; I just needed it to work. And I would always map out things in colour so that I could stay focused on what we were talking about. And that’s one of the strategies that I’ve now learned is a coping mechanism; it’s the way that we learn to cope in a neurotypical world.
But it was so interesting for me to kind of think back, you know, what did I do? How did I cope? How did I navigate these things? And predominantly, it was me, you know, pushing the boundaries and having people think of me as being a weirdo, and I was okay with that because I was confident enough with it. But I think where it got really difficult was in like boardrooms where you’re sitting with a group of executives, and I’m sitting there with blue lipstick, wild hair, you know, just trying to present a really serious plan to them. That’s where things got a little difficult for me.
And I learned how to edit… edit for the audience that I was speaking to. Very difficult to do and almost… it’s quite an emotional thing to go through to think you need to edit who you are, and your personality, and the way you do things to be palatable to people. I think that was probably one of the hardest things to me to do.
But I think now working in an environment where I can legitimately show up to work like this, and lead a team like this, and present in any which fashion – nose ring, hair, coloured lips, coloured nails – ‘Doesn’t matter. We’re interested in your work. We’re interested in what you can put together. We’re interested in the way you lead.’ I think that is so, so important in leveraging the benefits of having people who aren’t neurotypical because it’s magical. It’s magical to have a brain that works like this. It is. I fully believe it. I sell it to my team. If I go off on a little rant, they know to bring me back to the conversation because ‘Full disclosure: this is who I am. I love what I do. And sometimes, I don’t necessarily, can’t necessarily stay in the conversation like you can, but it’s worth it. Like stick it out with me and you’ll see the benefit.’ And it typically works, or at least I think so.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Ah, man. Honestly, it’s like hearing my own story being played back to me. Like, so much of what you’re saying, I’m like, ‘Oh, my god, yeah. Me too, me too, me too.’ So, one of the things… like, finding like a power partner who thinks the complete opposite way and is really good at the detail. The best projects I ever worked on, especially in corporate, was when I partnered with someone with a finance and business analysis background.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yep.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, I’ve been there with the vision, coming up with these ideas and crazy things to try, but they will keep me grounded in being able to say this is the business case, why this is a good idea. Because for me to see kind of, like, from vision right through to execution, measurements, and then playing back…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Like, I was twice the CX professional I was when I partnered with someone, so I really get you. And also, living in a neurotypical world and meeting a boss who loved what I did and what I brought and valued that difference was a game-changer for me, because there were times I worked with people who just didn’t get it, or get me at all…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… and I felt like there was something wrong with me. But they were very typical corporate men, predominantly. And I remember always getting the feedback, ‘You need to take people on the journey with you,’ and I’d be like, ‘But how?’ And it sounds like you found a boss and the Post-it Note way of working that enabled you to do that.
And for me, discovering CX design helped me too because I could go from, you know, these kind of like big ideas and thought trails that no one could follow to being able to use CX design to express this, and do workshops with other people who perhaps didn’t think in the same corporate way – especially from the frontline – and they could express their ideas and thoughts that way too.
So yeah, you can only really join the dots backwards, I think. You’re right. And for me, I don’t think I would be employable corporately anymore. You know, I found my niche in this kind of start-up and entrepreneurial space and building teams that complement my crazy, kind of, like founder view of the world. And like you say, you know, we learn how to modify in the right situations, but I don’t feel like we have to lose who we are to fit in. And when you find the right place for you, where your difference is valued and appreciated like you have now, it’s incredible to hear how passionately you’re talking about… like you’re blossoming and you’re flourishing. And, yeah, we just have to find the right place and the right environment.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, I guess my final question really is what would your advice be for, I guess, initially businesses out there who want to embrace neurodiversity better? What can they be doing?
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Read. Read about what neurodiversity is. I mean, it doesn’t even need to be in a formal manner. I think I learned… my learning curve about ADHD went like this [gestures] when I started listening to Clubhouse rooms with other professionals who are in tech who live with, you know, a neurodivergent brain, like, I think I learned so much more. TikTok has a whole set of videos.
So, when I say, ‘Read,’ I mean understand the perspective of a neurodivergent person and try to think where you in your business processes – whether it be HR, whether you’re signing on a vendor – where in your processes do you not cater? Where are you so rigid where you’re not open to having conversations with people who may sometimes have a nervous tic, or may sometimes speak too fast, or may not be listening? You know, straight up, you need to think really differently, but the only way in which you do that if you’ve got a neurotypical brain is to read about it in, I think, an academic fashion to help you make sense of it.
But if you are a neurodivergent person yourself, I think you have the responsibility to also teach people about what makes you different, what works for you, what doesn’t work for you… ‘This is why I do certain things. If I do this, please just remind me.’
There are certain skills that complement each, I think, team, right? And a neurotypical team and a neurodivergent team, you both need to learn from each other in order for that exchange to be magical. I don’t think you can do it just by, you know, sitting there and being academic about it and being like, ‘Well, this person ticks all the boxes, and so maybe I have some processes that accommodate these individuals,’ but you need to understand it intrinsically. It’s not just an academic thing. It literally affects every single thing in our lives, everything: how we do tours; how we do shopping; how we process information; how we listen; how we feel. It’s not just about, you know, how to work with someone, but it’s really just having the empathy to understand the position that they come from.
And so, I think the willingness to be open, the willingness to learn, the willingness to have a robust conversation, an inclusive conversation, a truly inclusive conversation, is really important. And in that, you then learn, ‘Okay, so where do I need to make tweaks within myself? And where do I then need to make tweaks within my business to try and be more accepting of people who may not come across as typical?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
It’s so interesting. I was just thinking while you were talking there – which is something I frequently do – about something you said in the previous segment, which was about, you know, kind of, ‘Full disclosure here: this is who I am and how I think.’ So, like, being upfront with people about the quirks and differences so they can more easily understand, embrace, and accept, and support you…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… it was a really interesting point. But you’ve also got to feel safe to be able to be that open about yourself, and that is definitely a culture and environment thing. And I think diversity and inclusion and equity is becoming an increasingly important topic in every circle in every sense of business, but neurodiversity seems to still be something that isn’t commonly discussed.
So, I’m really proud of us for starting this conversation, girl, and we’ll continue it through the Women in CX community. I’m really excited to be publishing a blog on neurodiversity from you this week, as well, and also Anna Schulze, who has got two neurodiverse sons.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Awesome.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I think, you know, this is the start of us being able to raise this. But ultimately to me, you know… neurodiversity and bringing neurodiversity into neurotypical environments will absolutely be a game-changer for innovation, hands down. And when it comes to customer experience, it is a superpower. I might disappear into my ‘mind palace’ for a little while and have to really think about how I talk about what I’m doing, but….
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… with it comes innovation. So yeah, what would be your final kind of message to leave our listeners with, for our women in CX out there? What would you say?
Adi-Grace Tobias:
When I get asked that question, my brain literally does this, ‘Boing! All these many things I want to say.’ As soon as someone says, ‘Give me one thing,’ my brain is just like, ‘No, I’m going to give you 100.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
All the other ones, we can put in your blog this week.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Yes! So, I think… I mean, I’m really, really excited to start this conversation. I know that I am one of the very few people in my organisation to try and start this conversation. It’s not an easy one because yes, safety is important, but I think the more mature we become and the more we accept ourselves, we can guide people who are just coming into the industry. We can kind of blaze the trail for them to feel more accepted in typical environments. And so, for me, I feel quite a big responsibility as a leader in my organisation to try and do that.
And so, I think what I’d like to leave them with is that if you know anyone who is neurodivergent or you don’t know too much about neurodiversity, read up about it. Learn about it. Understand it. It’s super interesting, I promise, once you understand what it’s about and how it impacts our day-to-day life, I can assure you, you’ll find many people in your world that may, in actual fact, be neurodivergent and they may not know themselves.
So, learn as much as you can. Be open. Be receptive. Be kind. Ah, please be kind. Be kind to people that you’re aware of their, you know... I don’t like to say ‘challenges’ because it’s not that; we just think differently. I think, yeah, being kind and encouraging people who are neurodivergent. Goodness, be brave, guys! Like, you’ve got a group of people that can back you. I assure you if anyone wants to chat about this, my door is open. Very happy to learn, very happy to chat, very happy to teach where possible with what I know so far. But yeah, just be open, I guess. It’s not very philosophical, I know, but…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Be open and be kind.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
… it’s the best I have.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I love it. I love it. Be open and be kind. I think that’s a great message to end on. So, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You’re such an inspiring woman. I’ve loved talking to you and…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Thank you for having me, Clare.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… let’s make one of those first places to do your webinar and to help to educate be in our community. And, yeah, we’ll start there. But it’s amazing…
Adi-Grace Tobias:
I’m excited to do it.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yes! I’m buzzed up, ready for my weekend now. So, thank you so much, Adi, and I’ll see you on the community very soon. And thanks to everyone for listening. Bye, Adi.
Adi-Grace Tobias:
Thank you! Bye.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the show, please drop us a like, subscribe, and leave a review on whichever platform you’re listening or watching on. And if you want to know more, please join us at womenincx.community, and follow the Women in CX page on LinkedIn.
Join us again next week where I’ll be talking to a woman who is leading the way for customer experience in the non-profit and social housing sectors. See you all next week!