Clare Muscutt talks with Sarah Sargent about customer experience in the housing and non-profit sectors
Episode #305 Show Notes
Clare Muscutt – host:
Welcome to the fifth episode of the third series of the Women in CX podcast, a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us, and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects.
I'll be your host, Clare, Muscutt, and in today's episode, I'll be talking to a woman who's using her customer experience skills to make a difference to people's lives in the non-profit sector. Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest. She started her career in contact centre operations at GE Capital before moving on to head up customer service at AXA, then leading People and Culture Transformation at O2 before taking an unusual CX leadership role at Lowell, a debt recovery group. Realising her love for creating better experiences in unexpected places, she moved into the non-profit housing association sector and is presently director of customer services at Swan Housing Group. Please welcome to the show CX sister Sarah Sargent.
Hi, Sarah.
Sarah Sargent:
Hi, Clare.
Clare Muscutt – host:
How are you doing today?
Sarah Sargent:
I'm brilliant, thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Awesome! Welcome to the Women in CX podcast.
Sarah Sargent:
Thank you. Thanks very much for inviting me to come along.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And welcome to everybody listening along at home, as well. So, I'm so excited to have you here to have, I think, a much needed conversation about customer experience in the housing sector and in not-for-profit. Feeling ready?
Sarah Sargent:
I'm ready.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Alright. Well, let's go. So, I always ease our guests in with an easy question to get everyone, you know, just relaxed and warmed up, and that's just simply to tell me a little bit about how you got involved in customer experience. What's your journey been?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah, well, like a lot of women in CX, as the community has proven over the last few days, I started in hospitality – so a lot of us did, it seems – and working in coffee shops, in bars, in restaurants, really to earn some money through my studies. And I just loved serving people and, you know, seeing what difference it made when they had a great experience, and I'm the same when I have people come to the house and, you know, host meals. I'm not the best cook, but I like to make the best experiences I can. And I think that really kind of cemented my desire to go into kind of service industry.
I started, actually, in a really small market research agency leading the field force there, which was a great experience... set up the first telephone interviewing unit. And then, worked my way up through contact centres with organisations like AXA and O2 and, you know, running pretty large multi-site, multi-channel contact centres, about 1,500 people.
So, that was really before CX was even a thing. So, you know, you had your sales and marketing teams and you had your customer service teams, but customer experience was still something not really talked about. I got really interested as things started to change and organisations would have straplines like 'Putting the customer at the heart of everything that they do'. And I think probably every organisation at some point has had that as a bit of a mantra. One organisation I was in at the time, it didn't ring true to me. It was like... it was words on a page, but I could see certainly in the contact centre that I was leading, we were still managing agent performance on things like average handling time and occupancy rates. It was really nothing about the customer in the way that we were measuring performance and recognising our people.
And that didn't feel right to me. So, I kind of – this is back in 2004, so I know this is commonplace today – but I led a real change to turn into customer measures, not business measures. So, taking away AHT from agents' performance and putting in place things like repeat contact, right-first-time, much more focus on customer outcomes. And it was a real success, and it led to real business improvement and customer satisfaction improvements, as well. And that got me much more into what's really become CX today, I guess, which is really focusing on things from the customer's point of view and developing and designing experiences with that customer voice and insight at the heart of it. And that's what I've done for the rest of my career, but very much still focused in operational leadership because I love leading teams. I love leading people. And I love seeing people drive and deliver that success. So, I've managed to do both in the majority of the roles that I've had up to this point, which is really exciting.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Oh, that sounds awesome. And yes, that statement 'Putting the customer at the heart of everything we do'... I think every company I worked in had the same one, but it was very much lip service. And it's awesome to hear your story of being able to actually translate that into action. I loved hearing you talk about, you know, the kind of business outcomes actually being driven by the customer outcomes and changing away from things like average handling time as measures for employees and actually putting in place right-first-time contact, actually, it achieves the same result, doesn't it? The cost will be decreased because the customer was served once and sorted out rather than it going on for a longer time. And yeah, I think that the contact centre industry is still progressing in that area, isn't it? It's still predominantly operational, and the kind of customer leadership approach is still kind of clashing quite a lot with the operational side.
Sarah Sargent:
It is, you know, it's strange. That was 2004, so we're still, you know, we're almost 20 years on from that. And yeah, progress has been made, but when it's not, you know...
Clare Muscutt – host:
It's still a conversation, isn't it?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There's still room for improvement and there's still a way to go. And I think there's still that need to join up customer service and the marketing side of the business, which is quite often where there's some dispute about who owns CX and where does it sit? And actually, you know, it's owned by everybody across the organisation to, you know, bring it all together.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I totally agree and it's one of the biggest red herring conversations around, isn't it? Who should own the customer experience? Like, if we just have somebody on the board that has it in their job title, everything will be okay, but that isn't the case, because as you say, it's everybody's job and it's more about how do you work across functions and silos to see the customer journey for one thing and then actually make change happen. So, it's awesome to have you here because you've done it; you've got the badge. So, in that long kind of career through contact centres in I guess more the commercial space and moving into now non-profit and the housing sector, there must have been some moments that really shaped you along the way. Could you tell us about one of them?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go way back, actually, and it's something quite personal from my early days, which I think has... I'll bring it back to how it shaped my career. But I grew up in north Northumberland. I'm a farmer's daughter from a really small rural community where nobody went to university. And if you were a woman, you were just expected to get married, ideally to a farmer or somebody that could help the farm in some way. You might have a little job on the side, but you know, really you were there to get married, and that's the environment that I grew up in, and that was the expectation of me, or rather there was really no expectation of me. And so, I kind of, you know, went along with that for a long time.
I did my A Levels, but totally bombed them because I was in a relationship at the time and everybody expected we'd get married. And so, I, you know, I didn't really think much of it. I got a little job in a bank as a bank teller and that was going to be my future. And then I saw friends going to university and having a brilliant time, and I thought, 'Do you know what? I think I can do a lot more than the expectations of me.' But I had to kind of, for the first time in my life, rail against people who thought they had my best interests at heart, and I had to stand up for myself and say, 'No, do you know what? I want more than this.'
So, I applied to go to university and, you know, I really displeased my parents, I must say, and they sent me away with a, 'We're not paying for this. You've got a good job. You've got a great future ahead of you. So, you know, if you want to do this, you do it by yourself.' And so, I did. And, you know, I worked my way through university and I paid for myself. And, you know, I've got a great relationship with my parents today. I still don't think they know what I do, but I think they're proud of me now in their own way. But I think, you know, that experience for me taught me a huge lesson, which was... you know, and I think coming back to the whole hospitality thing is, you know, I think at my core, I'm here to serve and I can be a people-pleaser. But actually, at that point in my life where it really mattered and something was really important to me, I stepped outside of that and said, 'No, I've got to make a decision that's right for me, even though it's not going to please people around me.'
And I think that's something that has just stayed with me through my career. And I think there's probably a handful of moments where I felt so passionate about something and seen the opportunity to change something, that it's really... you know, in the face of a lot of resistance, I stuck to my guns and delivered something. And, you know, that change around handling time and things like that came from that feeling of, 'No, this just feels right.' And intuitively, I know it's the right thing to do. So, yeah, so I, you know, I draw on those moments when I really need to. And when the people-pleaser in me is telling me just to carry on, I, you know, I dig deep and remind myself of, you know, what comes from sticking to my guns.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So yeah, so kind of moving into CX not-for-profit and the housing sector, I've got some experience having worked with a client in that space, but it was something I was never aware of coming from the commercial world. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into that and what customer experience is in that sector and how it's evolving?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah, I think, yeah, the last eight-and-a-half years before I got into the housing sector, I was working in a private equity-owned debt recovery company. So, hugely commercial, but very focused on customer and over those six-and-a-half years that I was there, made a significant shift in the culture and the customer focus, but it was kind of knowing that actually all of the benefits were going into the shareholders' pockets. And when I took redundancy from that role, I wanted to do something different. I didn't just want to go back into another corporate, commercial environment. I'd done a lot of work working with vulnerable customers in the debt space. And to me, there was a kind of underserved population, really.
So, I started having a look around when I started my job search at what was out there. And do you know? I hadn't really considered the housing sector at all. I didn't know anything about it. And I didn't realise how huge it was. There's something like 1,500 housing associations in the UK. That number is reducing through consolidation. There's a huge need; there's a million people waiting for social housing in the UK, a huge homeless problem. And I was just fascinated by it and fascinated by being able to take what I'd learned in the commercial sector and my customer experience background and knowledge into a sector that was really just starting that journey and knowing that that opportunity to really make a big difference – not just to the organisation but really to people's lives – was just a real draw. So, it was deliberate for me to get into that sector. And yeah, I absolutely love it, I must say.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. And again, this really resonates with me... kind of when I left corporate, that feeling of everything that I'm doing, making customers' and employees' lives better, but ultimately the benefit really does go in the shareholder pocket. And I similarly wanted to explore avenues where I could put my tools to work in the better service of others in a more social context, and education and housing were two particular client projects I was like, just loved working on because I knew like the scale of difference that, you know, this thinking in this space could make to people's lives and to have a social benefit. But for anyone who's listening that isn't familiar, who would the customer be in this context of social housing?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah. I mean, using the term customer in social housing is fairly new, actually, and probably because actually a lot of housing associations don't just have a relationship with a social tenant – somebody who is renting a property from usually a council waiting list – but actually serving a much broader base. So, customers include those social housing tenants, but also shared owners, leaseholders, and elderly residents living in extra care, supported housing. And Swan, the organisation that I work for now, also has a number of young people's foyers, so supporting young people and particularly young women with children who've been excluded from their home environment. So, there's... you know, it's a hugely important sector, but covering such a wide customer base.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. Fascinating and great to hear specific groups being called out there. Thinking about kind of like historically where this interest in customer experience in this sector is coming from, like I know that in the wake of Grenfell, for example, there was some kind of government legislation published about having to change the way that residents were treated when it comes to housing. How has that been shaping how much focus is being put upon this as an area of improvement and opportunity?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, post-Grenfell... I mean a huge tragedy, but something that has really sparked change in the sector. Some more progressive housing associations were already well on that journey, and they were... I think one of the things you hear a lot of in social housing now is the phrase around 'a commercial head with a social heart'. So, that need to actually become more commercially focused, putting that – and I'm going to say 'putting customers at the heart of the organisation' but really mean it in this context – because, you know, if you think about a lot of housing associations were borne out of local authorities and councils and are still trying to kind of shake off some of those shackles. So, something like what was called 'resident involvement' was very traditional, very formal councils, almost, of engaged residents who might be certainly not representative of the whole demographic of the customer base but had a huge voice in how the organisation was run, but really not representing customers.
So, there's a real shift to true customer involvement and customer engagement. So, you're seeing a lot more in the sector of not just surveys and feedback about perceptions of the service and levels of satisfaction, but a lot more co-creation where customers who are interested in digital, for example, can come and help to design and deliver website and digital tools and solutions to customers who get involved in their own local community because a lot is about actually how to create safe places for people to live and to thrive and to work. So, there's a lot of that local engagement going going on, as well, but it's really using that customer voice to help make the right decisions in the organisation, in where best to spend money. So, you know, money is pretty tight; it comes from the rent and service charge income from customers, and every penny counts.
So, you know, customers being involved in helping to shape the services is hugely important. And I think it's really seeing that shift to taking on more digital solutions. And I don't think... the housing sector will never be a leader in customer experience and will never be a leader in digital, but that's probably a good thing because you can actually learn from where others and the early adopters have perhaps not been so successful. But that shift is definitely changing and driving digital tools to support customers.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Hmm. Interesting you say that, though, because a lot of companies talk about this aspiration of applying customer experience design, and as we understand, it would be a thorough discovery of really listening to customers and employees to understand the challenges and opportunities and, you know, innovating product services and experiences around customers. And then, genuinely involving them in co-design isn't something I think that that many companies are doing.
So, in some ways I think the case studies that are coming out through resident engagement groups and resident co-design, actually, there's a lot to be said about that being a leading case study example because in reality, it so rarely genuinely happens. And I think the way that those community engagement groups are managed in, like you say, leading... agencies... What am I talking about? The leading housing associations, some of the work that I've seen coming out of there is fantastic and groundbreaking. So, we can talk a bit more about those similarities and differences. So, we've talked about, you know, the kind of whole notion of a customer, actually residents, very different groups, very different needs to be serviced, and I guess potentially quite a different culture and attitude around customer, customer experience, brand marketing, that kind of thing than in the commercial or corporate sense. But yeah, what would you say the main challenges and differences are as you've experienced them in this sector?
Sarah Sargent:
I think one of the biggest ones is around the quality and quantity of data. So, I think again, you know, traditionally you would have, you know, housing officers who would have a patch of properties and customers that they would serve, and they might know everything there is to know about their customers and know and understand them really well, but that insight is in their heads, not in a computer system somewhere. So, that desire to modernise and to move forward leads to a bit of a challenge in getting the right customer data and customer insight. And I think, you know, as you said before, customers are so different, but traditionally again, the sector has segmented customers based on the tenure of the homes that they live in, so whether they're social-rented or whether they're leaseholders or whether they're shared-owners or whether they're supported housing, and the services have been designed around the tenures not around who the customers are.
So, I think there is a real shift now to segmentation based on behaviours and attitudes rather than the types of properties customers live in. And I think that is really, really important to try and break down the stigma that still exists around social housing. And, you know, I've heard some stories of, you know, some of the customer needs and expectations are diametrically opposed. So, you might have a development which has an element of social housing and shared ownership, and you have the shared owners who don't want to be next to what they call, 'council housing'. And so, there's a way of actually, how do you create those communities so that everybody can co-exist because they're not labelled by the type of customer that they are but actually who they are? And I think that is going to be a real shift that's needed in the the coming years to really overcome that and reduce that stigma.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Then, I suppose it's like the legacy systems and the legacy culture that come with older environments, isn't it? So, as you say, the housing associations have typically grown out of ex-councils or... what was the word you used?
Sarah Sargent:
Local authorities.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Local authorities.
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, systems and processes kind of from that public sector environment weren't really designed around any kind of customer need. So, how would you see this unfolding in years to come? What would you like to see happen in the not-for-profit sector and housing especially?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah, I would say, you know, one of the things I mentioned earlier is I think, you know, there's a lot of learning that can be taken from digital transformations that, you know, we all have had those experiences that haven't worked so well. So, I think the housing sector can absolutely learn from those and really harness digital in a way that really supports customers and still provides customers that channel of choice so that the digital channels are there and work so well that why would you ever use any other channel? But equally, if you've got a leaking ceiling and your lounge is being flooded, you don't want to be lost in an IVR system or, you know, go around on a chatbot loop. You want to talk to somebody and you want to talk to somebody straight away.
So, I think it's about using customer journeys and designing the right journeys for customers where digital is a solution not... you don't start with the tech; you start with what's the need and, you know, what are customers going through and how do you best serve and support them? So, I think there's a real opportunity to do that well and to do that right in the sector. The sector is full of people who are passionate about social housing and really want to be part of this journey. So, I think culturally, there is a big shift needed. It's a way of breaking down those silos and working in a much smarter way. But I think the sector is definitely ready to embrace that. So, I would really love to see to see that shift. And you look at UK CSI, where the public services, the local sector – which is where housing associations sit – as a sector is only a couple of points behind the average UK CSI, but within that, housing associations are about five points below that. So, I would really love to see housing associations at least as good as other services that customers are experiencing because, you know, why shouldn't it be?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Well, you've set the target there, nice clear one. Yeah, and I just was just going to agree, really, that.. I think the Steve Jobs quote was a great one: don't start with the technology; start with the customer and figure out what technology is needed in order to serve. But I don't think that sector is on its own or unique in sometimes technology leading the decisions; that seems to be something that happens everywhere. But I can only hope that the power of resident engagement groups and some of the different ways of listening can help to support a stronger case for why it can be done better.
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah, yeah. And do you know what? I think, you know, money is... you have to spend every pound wisely in the sector. You know, there is so much competing priorities. So, you know, post-Grenfell, the focus on fire safety has meant, you know, putting in Waking Watches, who are, you know, actually physical fire wardens, 24/7 providing support for residents until the cladding is all fixed. That's a huge cost to housing associations, as is the carbon agenda, as is all of the requirements coming from the social housing white paper.
So, there's a real... it's really important to spend money wisely and to be able to, you know, to demonstrate the return on investment from every penny that you spend, which again is something that housing associations haven't necessarily been brilliant at in the past, but that's where the 'business head and social heart' comes in is actually being able to, you know, put some financial benefits against the changes that you're going to bring, and then spend money more wisely.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. And I can't wait to read more about this in the blog that you're writing for Voices of Women in CX, which will also be out today, and that's about the ROI of CX in non-profit organisations. So, Sarah, before we leave us, what would your one piece of advice or one big takeaway be for our audience listening along?
Sarah Sargent:
Yeah, I mean, I think going back to my very early experience and how that served me in my career all the way through, I would say don't be afraid to trust your intuition. People always talk about data, data, data, and that you do have to back everything up with data, but if you intuitively feel something's right, then find the data to support that and just do it. And I think one of the best pieces of advice I ever had was about think big, start small, scale fast. So, don't be afraid to fail. Do something, prove it, and then do it even bigger.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. I totally agree with you on that; awesome pieces of advice. And I think the one that will stick with me was about having a commercial brain but with heart; that was a great one to take away. So, I'd just like to say thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story.
Sarah Sargent:
You're very welcome, Clare. It's been a pleasure
Clare Muscutt – host:
And thanks to everyone for listening along at home. And yeah, see you next week. Thanks, Sarah. Bye.
Sarah Sargent:
Bye.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the show, please drop us a like, subscribe, and leave a review on whichever platform you’re listening or watching on. And if you want to know more, please join us at womenincx.community, and follow the Women in CX page on LinkedIn.
Join us again in two weeks' time, where I'll be talking to a customer experience leader at retail giant Amazon. See you all in two weeks!