Career Confidence for Women: Visibility, Leadership and Growth, with Michelle Ansell
Episode #806 Show Notes:
Clare
We’re back with another series of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast! A series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience and technology. For Series 8, we’re raising the bar—pushing boundaries, sparking bold ideas, and challenging the CX status quo. Expect fresh perspectives, fearless discussions, and a celebration of women driving change in our industry. I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt, and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to a seriously inspiring lady from the UK about what it really takes to move up in your career.
A Managing Partner at executive search firm Douglas Jackson, she helps CEOs hire diverse, high-impact talent. Passionate about business, leadership, CX, and inclusion, she’s shaping the future of the industry as a member of the Customer Institute and host of The Impact Room podcast. A business owner, speaker, and mentor, she’s on a mission to build high-performing teams and inclusive workplaces that drive real results.
Allow me to introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, Michelle Ansell!
Clare
Hi, Michelle.
Michelle
Hi, Clare, how are you?
Clare
I'm very well, thank you. How are you doing today?
Michelle
Yeah, great. Thank you. Thanks very much for the invite. Great to be here.
Clare
Welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast. And welcome to everybody listening or watching wherever they are. And in good old Inspiring Women in CX fashion. We're just going to jump straight in with our first question. And that is, can you share a little bit about your career journey and how you ended up where you are today?
Michelle
Yeah, so I think…how did I end up here? By pure luck and the wiggly, windy road of circumstance, I think, and that's the clear crux of it. I mean, I'm comprehensively educated, I'm born and bred in Birmingham, so I left school–wasn't particularly good at being schooled–I really didn't enjoy the experience, to be honest with you, didn't really know what I wanted to do in life, applied for a lot of roles, got rejected for an awful lot of roles and ended up in insurance, funnily enough and I was lucky enough, you know…and this sort of does fall through my career as well. I was lucky enough to have a number of supportive people, mentors, I suppose, people who gave me time, saw something in me when I had literally no experience, knowledge or anything else going for me. And sort of gave me a chance.
So I started off in a small insurance broker, Norton Insurance Brokers, started working on the counter, doing quotes for house and car insurance, did some bookkeeping with them, started doing a little bit of sales…when your house insurance is renewed, you know, that sort of stuff. And then after a couple of years, I got a job with the AA Insurance Services–so big corporate, brilliant training. I was on the phones, I was doing telesales, and I did relatively well. I was one of the high performers. I used to get into all the top achiever awards. And so I got some opportunities to be a team leader, a relief manager. And then, eventually again, I got offered my own shop as a manager for the AA insurance services. And I was one of the youngest people who had ever had their own shop.
And again, we did a really good job. Won awards…etc, but then as the contact centre industry was evolving and growing, the shop closures started to come, and redundancy was offered, or another bigger shop was offered or going to the contact centres. And I was relatively young at the time–I was still in my 20s–and I thought, however many thousands it was, was a lot of money at the time. I thought if I could take that money, I could get a new car, I'll get another job easily, blah blah blah, so that's what I did. That was the end of my insurance career. And then again, applied for a lot of jobs, got rejected a lot of things. And the only person who offered me a job was someone in recruitment. And here we are.
So I started out in recruitment. I've done a lot of recruitment, finance, and accounting. Again, I worked for Reed Accountancy for a long time, another big corporation, loads of great training, loads of mentors and things. Some small SMEs and again some very supportive leaders, some not so, hence I ended up starting on my own. I started Douglas Jackson 18 years ago, and here we are today.
Clare
Wow, that's such an inspiring story. And yeah, really great to hear someone else talking about…it wasn't a kind of linear path of just success to success to success. There were clearly some challenges and struggles there, but persistence paid off, right? And being able to figure your way through a path that has several obstacles sometimes ends up with you in the right place in the end, and it's fabulous that 18 years ago, you were able to start your own company and that you're flourishing today.
Michelle
Yeah, well, it’s not without its challenges or struggles, as we know, Clare, right?
Clare
No, that's true. Yeah. So people often think, you're your own boss, it must be a lot easier, but then all the other responsibilities that come with running your own company. Wow. And they never seem to cease. So, from your perspective as a leadership headhunter, what do you think are the biggest misconceptions people have about moving up in their careers, especially thinking about some of our listeners out there who might be feeling stuck or really underestimating themselves right now?
Michelle
Yeah, so there's quite a lot I can get into here. So stop me if I'm going way off track.
Clare
You go for it, Michelle.
Michelle
Yeah…I’ll start with some of the very simple basics, and I know people will know these things, but, you know, we can't get away from them. There's no silver bullet. And so I think, firstly, I'd find a reason to do something versus a reason not to. And, you know, I talk to, I don't know, tens of tens of people every week at a senior leadership level, sometimes more than that. People are very good at telling you what they don't want and why they don't want to do things, less so at telling you what they do want. That is a real problem, I find. And obviously, I talk to some very experienced, very strong leaders and professionals, you know. Consider the uniqueness of your individuality versus the comparison to everybody else.
Again, this is something I hear all of the time. It's like, “I don't have this, or will this all stand against me…” Everybody's background and journey, as we've just talked about, is unique to them, and everybody's journey has challenges or successes, and you don't know until you know, it's all that old adage, you don't know someone until you walk a mile in their shoes. It's easy to look from the outside looking in and think everybody's got something you haven't, but actually, you've probably got an awful lot. I would lean into your own uniqueness and individuality and what makes you special, versus what you think everyone else has got. I think the PIE model is really important. I don't know if you know Harvey Coleman's PIE model, according...
Clare
Please tell us what the PIE model is.
Michelle
Well, do look into it. I mean, I'm going to just…highlight it here, but not go into great detail. According to the PIE model, performance accounts for only about 10% of what drives career success. The other 90% is a mix of image and exposure. And I think certainly, I think women leaders, they tend to go more on the performance side. They think if I work hard enough, if I show what I can do, the opportunity will come.
Clare
Mm-hmm.
Michelle
And that's not necessarily true, especially according to that model. So for anybody that's interested in that, do look it up. I also think people, and again, this does apply to men, but especially for women and underrepresented backgrounds, sometimes it can wait to be tapped on the shoulder for the right time. But in truth, most leaders that I've placed or I've seen, they have to start acting like leaders before they actually get the title or get the position. They have to take the opportunities. They have to be curious, agile, flexible, you know, and as we've again, we've just said, sometimes the path, it isn't the path you think, and it's having that courage to sort of do it, take the chances and almost fake it before you make it. And that goes on to that.
You have to have all the experience. You have to be 100% ready. Again, you know, I think the best leaders, they're curious, they're coachable, they're resilient, they're not perfect. So, you know, if you talk to some of the very successful people, they realise that they don't know it all. They're brave, they can take and make the decisions, they can lead, but they have the people around them who are the subject matter experts. I think when you feel that you need to be that subject matter expert and in the granular detail and knowledge, that's where you sort of get lost and lose your way in terms of leadership careers.
Clare
Yeah, a lot of what you said resonated with me there. One point that really stuck out actually was about women feeling the need to prove themselves and focusing on proving themselves more than maybe talking about themselves, or I can't remember the exact words you used, but was it like profile and…
Michelle
Yes. Image and exposure.
Clare
Image and exposure! I guess, obviously, I'm in the startup world, and it's interesting how venture capitalist investors–which are mainly men–do actually judge women more on their track record than they do men. So men can have a vision, and the venture capitalist investors will be sold on their vision. Women have to have a vision, a plan, the experience to back it up. They have a lot more convincing to do. Do you think that's the same is true in leadership roles?
Michelle
Yeah, I think it's, I'll say a name wrong, is it Mary Ann Sieghart, The Authority Gap author, and she says, you know, men are more likely to consider a man a high performer versus a woman when they do exactly the same results.
Clare
Yeah.
Michelle
Yeah, yeah, so it's definitely true. There's no getting away from it. You've got to because you're in the minority; it looks like you're in the minority. So if, you know, it's the same when we talk about interviews and that percentage of representation, if there's only that one person on a short list or a long list from that background, it immediately you think, that's unusual to see them because everybody else looks like that or behaves like that or has come from that sort of background. So they immediately stand out, whereas if you can level the playing field, then it looks like, you know, that's the norm, if you know what I mean. So, yeah, it certainly exists.
Clare
Yeah. And one of the couple of things that resonated with me was the point around…what is the purpose of being in a leadership role? And it isn't to be the subject matter expert and being in all the details. It's about supporting your team, growing your people, ensuring they're performing at their best, and providing development opportunities for them. And I think that is one of the big steps, isn't it? From management into leadership.
Michelle
Yes.
Clare
It’s being able to focus on what your new job is, or if you move from management to senior management, for example. Because I think a lot of us in CX actually, because we've got such depth of subject matter expertise, will kind of naturally lean back more into your subject matter expertise than perhaps focusing on the generalist leadership responsibilities. And that is definitely where I see a lot of people getting more stuck.
Michelle
Yes.
Clare
And if they've got leadership opportunities, even within a management role, how can you–think to your point–really lean into that and talk, to be able to talk about examples of leadership and experience when you are going to after these bigger roles, wherever that opportunity may be. And I also love to ‘fake it till you make it’. And it is so true, isn't it? I believe the same thing is kind of true with confidence, things like public speaking, you have to pretend you're not scared.
Michelle
Yeah.
Clare
Until you can convince yourself actually, that you're capable and you can do it, but you have to act as if you are, even if you're not 100% sure, when it's a confidence thing.
Michelle
Yeah, but even, you know…I think the fear is a necessity a lot of the time. Even when you hear some of the most experienced people–the comedians or famous people–they still have that fear. You know, and it's not…maybe it's not something necessarily to worry about when you get that, it's learning to manage that feeling.
Clare
Yes!
Michelle
Because even now I can feel my palms, they're a little bit clammy and sweaty, just doing this with you. I know you, we've met before, I do this myself, you know, but it's still there. So I think it's just acknowledging how you feel and allowing it to allow you to do it, rather than holding you back.
Clare
Yeah. I think my top tip for anybody listening is when you feel that anxiety, that fear, it's about being able to tell yourself you're not scared, you're excited. Physiologically, it is exactly the same stuff that goes on in your body. So when you start feeling fear, particularly around a big event or speaking on stage or you're doing a presentation at work or a podcast, it's just to able to go, “I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited.” And for some reason, it's like magic.
Michelle
It's exactly the same! Yeah.
Clare
It switches you from the fight or flight mode into flow. So that's a good one. The broken rung is a challenge that we talk a lot about here at Women in CX with many women in CX and technology struggling to take that first step into management and then that next step in from senior management into leadership. So what strategies or approaches have you seen work for people breaking through into those leadership roles?
Michelle
Definitely, yeah, so let's just go back a little bit to what you said about management to leadership, that the reality is to be a leader, you don't have to be in a leadership role. And I think that's one of the forgotten elements because people can practice leadership without being a leader.
Clare
Exactly, yes, project leadership.
Michelle
Correct, even if you're in a team, how can you get people to rally, you know, so you can do a lot of things to help you be a leader at any role, even if you're at entry level, you can still lead. And I think that's almost forgotten. If I don't have the power, if I don't have the title, I'm not a leader, but you actually could well be. And so I think there's that. I go back to that belief, that confidence, that being brave, that putting yourself out there. Think about telling people what you want.
Clare
I like that.
Michelle
It’s something that is really underutilised. I was in another women's group not all that long ago in person. I was talking to a young lady, clearly very capable, very professional, highly educated, working with one of the big consulting firms. And she told a story because we were talking about how, you know, maybe she doesn't get picked for promotion or the bonus or etc. And she said her boss came to her and said, “Why don't you ever come to me?” And she said, “I'm busy getting on, performing, doing the job, delivering the projects.” And they're like, “Yeah, and I never hear from you from month to month to month. And your male counterparts, or even let's correct, are constantly in the office telling them what they want, asking for things.” And if you think about it, when bonus time comes or a promotion, and you've got someone that's constantly badgering you versus someone that you never hear from, that is just getting on with the job…
Clare
Constantly updating him, yeah.
Michelle
Where are you going to put the money? Where are you going to put the opportunity? It shouldn't be like that, but you know, that's a bit about making your own luck, think. So, telling people and asking people how you can get there. I think they're really important things that everybody can do very, very easily. Ask people, get feedback…go to anybody. Again, whilst I, and you know, I'm a big advocate for women's groups as well as CX groups and what have you, but I do think that we need to push ourselves outside of these groups and go to finance, know, sales and marketing, whatever it might be, supply chain, but literally go to look in the organisation and ask for regular feedback and find people that, if they're not willing to be a mentor or something like that, that they will give you feedback and give you a leg up, ask for their help.
Don't worry about rejection. We're all going to be rejected. So we just have to get used to it. It's not necessarily personal. And if people say no, just keep trying, keep banging the door, keep asking, and somebody will obviously come and start to help. As I said, mentorship is good. If you can't find a mentor yourself, upwards or sidewards, even mentoring somebody in a more junior or other area for you, is proven to sort of increase someone's viability for careers, both the mentor and the mentee generally do better, perform better in that environment. So even if you can't find a mentor, look to mentor others, and you'll get a great deal from that, and it will help you grow and become a better leader.
And then networking, you know, I do think that generally men, not all, but generally men are better than women at networking. I think as well, knowing that coming at networking from a, it's not about what you want. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle. It's like, well, what will I get out of it? I think if you can come into networking as a…what can I do to help the network? Can they help me in any way, shape or form? I'm not too worried about that, but it will benefit me because I'm helping them, and what can I bring to the table? But I think again, a lot of people come from a scarcity mindset when it comes to networking. It's like, “Yeah, but if I help somebody, what about me?” And rather than that abundance, I think men typically, and it's maybe because they've been in these higher roles for longer, and there's more of them. They do tend to be quite good at putting people together, and a lot of jobs are got that way. You know, it's like, “Have you met John or have you met Martin? Or let me introduce you to…”, whereas sometimes women can be a little bit reluctant to do that and feel like there's so little opportunity they'll lose out themselves. But I think there's enough opportunity for everybody.
So I definitely think about it more from, you know, what can I do? What can I help people with? I think you'll get a lot more in return. So yeah and then the other point is I think if we can get more support for women at certain points of their career, you know obviously when they start a family, if there's health issues, certainly at that midlife point the menopause, or if they've got elderly parents, sometimes women have to pull back. They can't take on that extra project, they can't put in the extra hours, they may not feel they're ready or able to do a promotion. That doesn't mean that they're just mothballed forever, put away and forgotten. If we can support them, and we as women that get to those stages can try to understand and ask for the support, in a couple of years, when they're in a better space again, or they've maybe got the bandwidth, or they're able to do it.
They come back fully enthused, excited, they've got all this experience, and they're ready to go. And I think businesses lose out by not recognising these stages in their career. But I think women do also. I speak to lots of women on maternity who are looking to exit their employer, rather than they haven't had a conversation before that and during that, and you know, what's next, what's to go back? Do you know what I mean? So I think there are opportunities there as well.
Clare
Love that. I think the two big points I'm taking away from that question are it's a bit like marketing yourself in the workplace, because I'm sure a lot of listeners will know this term, but mental availability. That's why brands spend millions on advertising. So when a consumer thinks about a need, that connection is going to be made. If you've got that visibility, that regularity of contacts that you know, you're being seen. Obviously, the results you deliver are critical, but that kind of face time, talking about what you've done, giving those updates, having one-to-ones, not hiding away and just letting the results speak for themselves, is a really important part. And the other thing, you know, I talk quite a lot about mentorship, but I think for me, sponsorship was critical for my career journey when I was in the corporate world. How do you find and align with people who will talk about you when you're not in the room, who are at a senior enough level?
Michelle
Yeah.
Clare
That if your name doesn't get mentioned in relation to an opportunity or those talent conversations that happen once a year, that you're never going to be at…how can you get the people who do have a say in what happens in terms of development opportunities and talent pipeline planning to make sure that you're definitely a person of conversation when that's happening. So, let's think about more practical tips here for our listeners, then. Once someone actually gets to the interview and the negotiation stage for a top role for example, what should they be doing differently to position themselves for success both in securing the job and ensuring the right terms? I know this is a question I get asked all the time in the community.
Michelle
Yeah, okay. So an interview and the negotiation are separate, and I think you know you've got to understand that and not think that it's all the same again. I'll talk to people right at the outset before we've even really got into the role in any great way, and they're already negotiating, they're already telling you what they need. Now I get that and I understand that there are some things that are non-negotiable, you know, also certainly at leadership, a senior leadership level, sometimes things aren't written. Yes, the job description is in black and white, and it's been put on paper, but how many times do you get somewhere and the job changes completely? And the reality is it's a senior leadership level. Yes, there is a defined description of the role, but...
Clare
Yeah!
Michelle
…you're going to have to probably do an awful lot of other things to get that job done. So I think going to the interview with a really open mind, it's a two-way thing. Lots of research on the job, the company, the financials, etc. And I do know again, that's really important, but at a senior leadership or leadership level, it's really going to come down to the people, values and culture. The reason that you're going to leave that business, if you're a performer, is because you can't work with the people. The business won't allow you to do the things that you do. So, how well do you understand these things, and how do you use the interview process to try and understand the leadership team, the personalities, the gaps, the performance, the empowerment, the stakeholders? And then, what are the key outcomes? So forget the job.
Clare
Hmm. Yes.
Michelle
Where is the business on their journey? We know that businesses are typically in a three to five year target operating model cycle. So when you're being interviewed, where are they in that? And what's happened? Have they failed? Why have they failed? If they've bought someone like you in already, why did that person not succeed? You know, what's happening? And when you're going to come in, are you in the mid-stage and everything's on fire? You know, is it because companies will sell you the dream? But the reality is when you get in there, it's like, “My God, this wasn't what I was told.” And again, you hear that all of the time.
Clare
Yes, I agree. I hear that all the time, too.
Michelle
Yeah, so outside of your key responsibilities, understand what your sphere of influence or support will be. And then think about in interviews and the questions that we get asked immediately, we're going back historically to give an example of when we delivered. And that's great. And we have to do that. But the best leaders, again, their solution, not problem-focused.
This is what CEOs and boards need. And again, to your point earlier about CX and where I think sometimes they get stuck is…we focus always on the problems, the customer saying, “We've got all these issues, these are the complaints, these are the drop-off. It's all these problems.” And that's what the conversation becomes of this problem, but what's the solution?
Go, “Okay, you're asking me that question, Mr. CEO. Where does your business want to go? I believe in three or five years you want to be here. Well, let me tell you how I'll take you there. And this is the example, I've done that before.” It's really about looking at the solutions rather than the problems, being aware of the goals, the targets, what's the board looking for? What are the investors looking for? Again, from a CX perspective, I think sometimes we go into it with the “Customer is King, we can do this, NPS, etc..” And that's all well and good. But as we know, if the investors are looking for X in three months or an exit in three years, and the bottom line has got to double–you've got to be telling the organisation that's what you can deliver through great customer experience or the customer stuff.
I think that's the interview side. Then on the negotiation side, as I said, I think people do put the barriers up right up front. Now, that can stop you from even getting a conversation or having a conversation. And sometimes I think it's better to have the conversation, roll yourself out and explore the opportunities if all the other variables are in place, or some of the other variables are in place. So if we take, say, let's say a four-day condensed working week, and that's important to somebody, often I'll talk to them and they go, “I want four days a week”, and I go, “Okay, is there any flexibility?” No, unless you get it committed, confirmed before we start, I'm not going for an interview. Fine, I get it's important, but it's very difficult for a business to say yes to that right at the get-go.
Clare
Before they've even met you, yeah.
Michelle
Correct. But if I meet you and I go, “I absolutely love Clare. She has blown me away. She's head and shoulders above everybody else. And then I go, Clare really is looking for four days. And you go, do you know what? I might be able to do it.” It can happen. I mean, again, I heard this story not too long ago, a female director who worked a four-day week, was in the process for a C-suite board role. The board went, “No way, never going to happen. You can't do this job four days a week.” And she just went, “Okay, give me three months. If it doesn't work, I'll work five days for you.” Few weeks, months into the role, the board member come back and said, “When are you going to start this four-day a week?” And she'd been doing it from day one, right?
Clare
I love that story, that's a really good one.
Michelle
And that's it. I do think if something's important to you, fine, but where's the flex? Where's the agility? So in negotiation, I think, know your non-negotiables upfront. It isn't often the package, but what are the other elements? So like I say, I'll often see people willing to drop sometimes 20%, 25%, sometimes more of their package for something else, whether it's closer to home or flexibility, more responsibility, whatever it might be. So think about that. Everything you give, what can you get in return? I think people are very uneasy when it comes to negotiation. So definitely think about it well in advance. Don't lowball yourself. Women are really bad at this. You know, what are you looking for in a package? Well, I'm used to being paid this, but actually I don't need that, and I'm willing to accept this. No, stop doing that. Stop doing it.
Clare
Yeah.
Michelle
And equally, don't consider a lower-level role. And then when you do get the offer, start negotiating to ridiculous levels, sort of thing. But yeah, I think those will be my top advice on those two things.
Clare
Big ones. Again, this is a very similar conversation that I have with a lot of women in the community. I think my bits of advice would also be, if something that seems interesting and exciting to you as an idea when you're going through this interview process, I think it's about letting go of what the outcome is going to be. I think a lot of people are getting very attached to opportunities, it's a bit like dating, you have to probably date quite a few people before you find the right one. But they're just focusing maybe on one job at a time, and then going through the process, maybe not getting it and having to start all over again. So, mindset-wise, thinking a bit more about dating when it comes to job searching, especially for people who are out of work as well, I would say that or in between roles. Because there's something about the energy I think that you give, which is desperation that people can smell a mile off.
Michelle
Yeah, absolutely!
Clare
And that's not going to help you get the job. And it's definitely not going to help you negotiate if they can sense that. So, having that slightly detached from the outcome approach to job hunting, I definitely believe it makes a massive difference. And just relentless focus on being offered the job, not whether I'm going to take it or not, or what the package is going to be. Just focus on getting it, doing your best job in the interview, demonstrating your skills, and going in with as much great kind of confidence and gusto as you can. Again, with that detachment mindset, it makes a massive difference. Then just one little tip from me on negotiating a package, and that you said, women low-ball themselves. I quite often advise people to think about what they would accept, and think about what they would really want.
Michelle
Yeah!
Clare
When you're saying the starting point, let it be in between your dream and what you would really like, and what you would accept, but don't go straight in with what you would accept, go in a bit higher. Because in negotiations, invariably, unless you're really lucky, and I've seen this happen to people. It's happened to me that the first offer has been like, “Yes, we're happy to pay you that,” because they've seen you've gone through that process, and they will do anything to get you because they can recognise the value of you being there. But to just go in with that kind of slightly higher…but you've got to get offered the job first before you worry about that stuff.
So I'd agree with you there. But we're running out of time now, Michelle. It's been awesome to talk to you today. We've got loads of practical tips for our listeners. If there was one top takeaway or one piece of advice from this entire conversation you'd like to leave our podcast listeners with, what would that be?
Michelle
Believe in yourself and just take one step towards your goal every single day.
Clare
That's a really nice one. We'll make sure that we get the links for the resources you mentioned, the PIE, and the book you talked about, and we'll add those to the show notes afterwards.
Michelle
Yeah, definitely.
Clare
So that's it for today. Thank you so much, Michelle.
Michelle
Brilliant, thank you very much, lovely to be here.
Clare
Thank you to everybody who listened or watched wherever you are, we can't wait to see you on the next one! Bye for now!
Michelle
Bye!
Clare M
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology! Well, that’s all for now! See you again next time.
