Clare Muscutt talks with Ingrid Lindberg talking about her journey to becoming the World's first CXO.
Episode #009 Show Notes
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Hi, Ingrid.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Hey Clare.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
How are you today?
Ingrid Lindberg:
I am great. How are you today? I'm so excited to talk to you.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I'm so excited that you are here. I can't believe it.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Happy Monday. Right? It's a good way to start a week.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Very happy Monday. I'd just like to welcome all the listeners as well. So Ingrid, I'm so thrilled that you're here because you were actually the first person that I asked. If you would come on the Women in CX podcast before it was even a podcast. It was just an idea before I had any clue of how I was going to make it happen, but I knew I wanted you to come on the show because to me, I think you're absolutely what women in CX is all about. Your strength, your confidence, your authenticity, and your just complete unapologetic-ness for being yourself. It's, it's truly inspirational. You're the kind of woman that inspires others to take up space. And your career speaks volumes. Your title as it's appeared on the screen today is The world's first CXO, but I'd really love today for our listeners to get to know the woman behind the success story. If that's all right with you?
Ingrid Lindberg:
Totally. And you're too kind. I'm a little bit clamped with that introduction, Clare, I'm going to carry with me everywhere and all my introductions. What do you think?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I would be more than happy to! You were so kind to me from the start. So, you know, I really, really, really love that you're here. So question number one, we're going to have to start with the pineapple because it's in your branding. One was the first words you ever said to me when we met on Instagram was 'Aloha' with your little pineapple emoji at the end of the Aloha. So obviously I know this story, but I'd love for you to tell the audience what's the pineapple all about.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Oh, for sure. I love the question, right? I laugh a little bit every time I get it, but it's purposeful and there's a reason. So first of all I grew up outside of the U S for about the first 10 years of my life. And then I spent about eight years in Hawaii growing up on islands of Hawaii, which are a part of the United States, but you not feel like a part of the United States. So I always kind of preface with, I grew up with a lot of islands and frankly, a lot of pineapples on my dinner plates. But the real reason behind the pineapple, as far as why we use it as our brand is, first of all, the pineapple is kind of that global symbol of hospitality. And if you think about hospitality, it's really all about how you treat visitors and guests and even strangers, right? How you welcome them. How you're kind to them, how you make them feel like they're a part of something. So there's a lot of great representation because of the hospitality aspect. And then kind of that secondary piece was the Hawaii piece, right? So growing up on an Islands around the world and then specifically on the Island of O'ahu in Hawaii there's something that we talk about, which is called 'Aloha-Āina', which is really about our love of the land, right. Live with the love of the land. And it's, you know, it's a nod to this kind of force that drives who we are and everything in the world. And it's about kindness and love. And so you take hospitality and you take that Aloha-Āina, and what other symbol would there be, right. I mean, that really is what we represent at chief customer, first of all. And second of all, if you think about customer experience, that's a pretty good match, right?
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I totally get that. I love Aloha-Āina.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Right? It's love and peace and all the things that I think are important for us to stand for. So especially when we're talking about customers, right? Customers and employees, frankly.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
You said growing up, on lots of islands, lots of moving around, lots of Travel. Why was that?
Ingrid Lindberg:
So my father was in the military. He was an attorney. And because he was an attorney in the military, they get moved around a lot. Right. They, they moved to a lot of places. And so we lived outside of the U S so I was born in the Philippines, you know, we lived, literally all over. So Hong Kong and Japan and Panama and Costa Rica and and Hawaii, a small stint in Cuba. So there's just been this kind of consistent moving-- my friends say, I have ants in my pants, but when you move every couple of years for the real formative years of your childhood, right, you get very used to walking into a new school. Sometimes that's speaking a completely different language than the one that you're used to speaking. So I remember my first day of schooling in Panama, right. I spoke a little bit of Tagalog and English and everybody was speaking Spanish. So full immersion immediately. Oh my gosh. And so because of that, right, we moved a lot and it's definitely helped my perspective on how small this world is. And frankly, how to adapt and assimilate and study different types of people pretty quickly. So you can figure out how to be successful. Fair enough, Claire.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
As a keynote speaker that I know you are these days, being able to walk into that room and pull on that experience as a small child of having to walk into lots of different rooms where you didn't know anybody , I'm sure there must be advantages to that happening in the formative years But I know from listening to other podcasts and watching the videos that you made-- in my research, that that life of an army child with came with a lot of privilege in the early days. Like, I don't actually know anybody else who had servants at some point in their life. But what makes that story even more intriguing is that I heard you say that you basically lost it all at one point in your childhood, what happened there and what was that kind of experience like of going from having everything to struggling to make ends meet?
Ingrid Lindberg:
It's a curious story, right. And when I, when I tell this story, people always kind of look at me a little sideways, right? It's the, what do you mean? So in a lot of places in this world having people in your home that are helping run the household is a very normal thing, right? It's a very normal thing. And in a lot of the places that we lived, that was a very normal thing, whether it was a nanny or cooks or gardeners. And it's strange when I talk about it now, because I couldn't fathom it at this point in my life, but growing up, it was just what happened. And the people who worked with our family also primarily lived with us, right? So a lot of people lived in our homes with us. And I do think one of the best stories about this is my mother got in trouble for paying my nanny too much money. So all of the other wives in the neighbourhood that we lived in were paying half of what my mother was paying the woman who took care of me and this woman, her name is Cecilia. And she was completely a part of our family. I mean, she was completely a part of our family. You know, I have memories of her that are so profound and in some cases, so much more prevalent than memories of my parents. But it was, you know, it was very much just kind of how life was. So that being said, you know, lots that can be unpacked on that one. My parents got divorced and we ended up having to move back to the States. And we went from, you know, I wouldn't say that we had everything right, because it wasn't, there was, there was never this idea of you could buy everything and you could get everything. And we had allowances that were very small and you had to save your money to go and buy something if you wanted something. And, you know, it was not a very extravagant life outside of having people who worked in the household, which I know sounds strange to people, but when our parents got divorced, literally lost everything. So my father was unfortunately, one of those deadbeat dads who just disappeared and didn't help with any payments at all. And so it was, it became a very difficult life and it was, I mean, it was such a bandaid being pulled off. And there's a story that I have told that Claire, you and I have talked a little bit about, about walking in to make a purchase of something and having the money to do it, but not being dressed appropriately for the department store that I was walking into to make that purchase at. And just how that made me feel has frankly stuck with me since that day and is one of my biggest drivers. So it's, it's a fascinating kind of, you know, roller coaster that life can take us on. But I'm thankful for it because it taught me a lot about what was important and what wasn't important. And frankly, both sides of that childhood experience taught me the fact that everyone needs to be treated equally. That's a really important learning that I've had. So and it was once again, it was on both sides of it, right? So there you go. Deep dark secrets of my upbringing, Claire.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
No, thank you so much for sharing that with us. And I think it's always amazing to hear how those stories or those moments in time are the things that kind of shape is in the future. And, you know, sometimes the biggest lessons we learned aren't through our successes, but through difficult times. But you know, the ones that we can confidently turn around and say, it taught me something of value about my own personal values, such as, you know, needing to treat people equally and truly believe in that. You know, if you've experienced it for yourself, it definitely will be more, more fundamental as an experience, but just taking this out of your childhood and I guess into a bit later in your career. I read somewhere and it really made me laugh that you discovered that you developed a taste for Brown liquor in response to dealing with the 'boys clubs' that you quite often found yourself in as an executive at board level as a, as a female executive. Can you, can you tell us a little bit more about that and how you've learned to deal with this fraternity culture?
Ingrid Lindberg:
Oh my goodness. That's, that's one of my favourite moments where I wish sometimes I hadn't shared that story, but it's, I think so appropriate. So I was part of a book that was written a couple of years ago, where there were a thousand women who had been invited to participate and then 10 of us were chosen to be in it. And we were asked to write our story. It's a fabulous piece. I mean, there's fabulous women that are highlighted in it. It's words of wisdom from women to watch because actually out of production now, but regardless. And one of the stories that I told in there was about, you know, frankly being the only woman in a lot of settings. So whether it was at board meetings with our boards of directors, whether it was at executive off-sites with our executive leadership team there was an awful lot of times where I would look around at an event and I would literally be the only woman there other than the event planners. And that was a very interesting place to be in. And I was, I was relatively young when I had my first big jobs, right. I was a chief marketing officer at 30, so big jobs, young woman. And one of the things I realised rapidly was that what I was drinking didn't match what everyone else was drinking. And I, I'm not someone who cares a ton about a lot of, kind of traditional sports in the U S because of how I grew up and just because of what my interests are, so I could never connect about sports. I really couldn't talk about my wife and my kids didn't have a wife, didn't have kids. You know, the next kind of best option was to talk about bourbon and whiskey and scotch. I remember the first time I tasted it and I was like, Oh my gosh, it's a horrible, right. It was, I don't even know what I was drinking. Someone has sipped it. And I did not realise when I was about to ingest, but it's something that, you know, frankly has just become a part of who I am. Right. I mean, I am known for fabulous taste and Brown liquor, and I actually enjoy it now.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Another lesson that you learned and could use later life. I never have still to this day do not get whiskey. I was at party and I took some of this whiskey called Laphroaig. And I had no idea. It just looked like regular Brown liquor to me. And I poured myself a glass, mixed it with diet Coke, the look of horror on the guys' faces. And to me, it just tasted a bit like TCP. So I didn't know what the fuss was all about, but I've yet to yet develop that taste for myself.
Ingrid Lindberg:
But you don't have to. I think it was just the tool I found,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah I think it might still give it a miss, but I think that story is a perfect example of kind of who you are as a person, your courage. And ability to wants to find a way to not fit in, but more so how to adapt to the environment that's around you and make the best of it. But you could come across as so confident all the time. I look up to massively when I watched your videos and I listened to you speak. I just think, wow. I know when I grow up, even though I'm supposed to be grown up, I want to be like Ingrid. So I just wondered, the question, I'm sure that's on all of our listeners lips would be, you know, kind of where does this confidence come from and how have you kind of built it?
Ingrid Lindberg:
So that one that's hard for me to Clare, right? That's hard. It's I think I there's, there's two pieces. And one is a funny story that my mother loves to tell about the first day she picked me up from Montessori school. I was 18 months old, was going to, you know, Montessori school for the first day. And the director-ess came out to meet my mother, as my mother was picking me up from school and the way that my mother tells the story. So 18 months old. So a year and six months, I was a baby, right? It was a baby. But the way my mother tells the story is that the directors walked up to my mother and said, are you Ingrid's mother? And my mother said, I am. And the director-ess in charge of the school, said, well, I don't need to be here anymore because your daughter is in charge. So I was bossy at 18 months. And anyone who I've ever worked with good and bad, right. Will tell you, I am very clear in what I think is the right answer. And I'm very direct about why and how I think we need to move forward. And I've learned, I've learned to listen to outside opinions and other thoughts, but once I've made a decision, I'm not very good at changing it so that confidence can go both ways. Right. I mean, it's been very helpful in a lot of ways. But there's also pieces and times where has not served me as well, because I haven't been as good at listening. So I've worked on that a lot in the last, we'll say five to 10 years, it's been a growth spot for me. But I think the main driver, not, I think the main driver, frankly, Clare, is that I realized that the only choice I had was to be who I was. Right. I'm not someone who's comfortable in a Navy blue suit. I'm not someone who's, you know, comfortable pretending that I know about pop culture or talking about sports. I have the things that I love. I have the things, you know, that make me who I am. And I learned pretty rapidly as I rose through my career, that the more I stuck to those things that made up who I was, frankly, the better I did. And I think that's it. I think we spend so much time trying to be someone that someone wants us to be. Right. And I think that you just kind of figure out a way to silence as much of that noise as you can. It's pretty powerful. It's pretty powerful. Right. You know, it's pretty powerful, but it was definitely, you know, I can say there's some nature and some nurture in there, but it was, it was definitely a learning spectrum.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. It's funny because I think my mum has a really similar story, but I think I'm around two years old and then her story, I can, I can have full on conversations with adults and she to talk about how I have charming I was like adults that had this massive personality is a very small child, not so much bossy, but yeah, that kind of like nature of garrulousness-- I think is the right word-- and like putting myself out there. But it's something I think, you know, whenever I have these amazing conversations with women, they spoke about these turning points that you just said when we realise actually WHO we are is the magical thing. And if we can feel like we can share that with the world in our most authentic way when it, when we do it or when it happens or, you know, this, my feedback I've had from the ladies that have been on the podcast so far, you know, being able to show up and show yourself is quite often a turning point, but it is that kind of initial step of experience of how you're received, I guess when you do that. So I guess for me, there were times in my life where I was being myself and people did not like it. And it was, you know, kind of like, okay, retreat, who do I need to be now? But as I've got older, absolutely. Especially as I've left corporate and I've got to be able to completely be myself and not worry about anyone else's values, or he would have to be, I definitely feel, feel, feel very different. I guess that brings me on to the next big question really is around kind of your role with other women any executive layer of society. It's at a level that not that many of us ever really get to see, but I was fascinated by a project that I know you started, which I just absolutely love the name of. I have to make sureI get it right. So 'Tatas at the Table'?
Ingrid Lindberg:
Tatas at the table
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Please. Ingrid. Tell me more about Tatas at the table.
Ingrid Lindberg:
You know, the passion projects, right? Yeah. I was, gosh, I was 35. I was 35 and I had a big job, right. I had a big job and there was one other senior woman at the company. And the CEO had said, you should get to know the senior woman. She's, you know, she's 30 years older than you are. You're very young. Another one of those you're very young for your big job. And I'll never forget. I walked up to her. We were at a board meeting. So we were, you know, at some fancy resort, you know, whatever, with all of our executives, from all the other companies who sat on our board of directors. And I walked up to this woman and I said, hi, you know, I know I've worked here only for six months. I know we don't know each other very well yet, but I really respect you. I really respect your career. We're kind of alone here in this world, right. I mean, there's only the two of us that are female at this board meeting and I would love to learn from you, you know, would you be so kind as to let me learn from you? And we were colleagues, right. We were colleagues. We were both paid by the same organisation. We both had the same boss and she looked at me and she said, no one helped me. Why would I help you.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
My God? No.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Yeah, right. Like, Oh, okay. Harvard has actually written quite a bit about this. In their business review, they call it second generation bias. Right. And it's that kind of first level of women who cracked the ceiling and really hurt themselves doing it. Right. And then there's the next generation, right? So we'll say women who are right now kind of thirties to late forties, that group of us. Right. And we're hurting our heads, trying to the ceiling as well. Right. It's not shattered yet. We're trying to crack it still. But it was, it was just one of those things where I was just so offended. I was just so personally offended. And you know, I've been very lucky to have a lot of people look out for my career and helped me in my career, women and men. But I looked around and I just realised there were not that many executive females I could learn from. So I thought let's AGGREGATE THEM. I run a group that's hosted on Facebook and it's called TataS is at the table. And we have a public version, which is, you know, anyone is free to join, please do. It's kind of fun. And then we have a private group that's for female executives. And it's just a safe space for people to talk about how hard it is to be in that space. I mean, we only see what 6% of CEOs globally are. Women's Dale. I mean, come on, we've got a long way to go. So that's the Tata is at the table, but we're 10 years in now, which is insane to me and, you know, 2,500 people strong. So there's hope, there's hope
Clare Muscutt- Host:
There is. I just love it. Just the nation. I'm just imagining like the actual boobs at the table at the table, right? Yeah.
Ingrid Lindberg:
This will make you laugh. At one point we handed out, we had, you could buy camisoles. Right. So for underneath your suit, it had the logo hidden. So when you put on your suit over your camisole, all you'd never see that it said tacos with the table, but it was like your power armour, right? Like do your bad ass work or we sold a bunch of those. I haven't seen it. It,
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I absolutely love it. And I guess just like reflecting and by the way, I'm going to be on the free Facebook group. And I hope that you do bring back the camisoles one day, because I would love to have a little superhero uniform underneath who I know I'm dealing with some of those male dominated environments, but it did make me just kind of reflect there on that these generations of feminists, I guess, or whichever wave we've we've landed in. So yeah, that, you know, full credit to the women that went before us and had the hardest job of getting rights and in the workplace starting to change the game. But I think you're right. Like I know that I've run into very senior women in my career in and out of CX who definitely have not wanted to help a younger woman or to do that kind of mentoring role. it was never conveyed to me that it would have been the reason that, you know, nobody taught me and it might be for your own good if you have to learn these tough lessons yourself. But I think that is what's different. And our generation right, is the recognition that we know that if we can lift other people up and collectively we can all charge it, those glass ceilings together, that we've got a much better chance as a group than we do standing on our own.
Ingrid Lindberg:
So the tide tide lifts all ships, right? Lifts all ships. I think there's one little bit though, Claire, that I'm you and I have not completely talked about, but I think it's such an important piece. So I apologise. I mentor, I run a group, you know, I do coaching circles for very senior females and I take a couple of women on every year that I personally coached pro bono that are generally younger and, you know, can't afford, can't afford the cost. Right. And it's just something that I feel is important to do. But one of the bits of advice that I gave one of my mentees recently, cause we were having this very same conversation. And I said, look, I think one of the things I learned in retrospect, right? I look back at how I behaved when I was 30 and I didn't give that respect and I didn't come in with enough humility because frankly what I knew at 30 is nothing near what I know now and will be nothing what I know in another 15 years. And so I really wish that, you know, it's kind of that let's, let's curve both sides, right? Because I think that the approach is just as important as the response. And that's something that I hope I can help people with, right. Is come in and ask. Right. Come in and ask with humility from someone who's done it before, come in and ask with the right intent. And we might see different responses as well. Right. So, and it's not that everyone, I mean, I've been super lucky to have, as I said, a bunch of people will be very helpful, but I think it's, you know, it's, it's all of us, it takes all of us back to the, it takes all of us to break the ceiling. Right. so we'll just love to keep working. That's my, that's my hope for us as women.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. Definitely. I guess thinking back was I really that humble in my approach possibly not, but I think there's that kind of like dealing with the what's deemed for millennials is a sense of entitlement that we're not w we don't quite know that we have it in comparison to the generations. We just assume that that's kind of how we should, we should be. And until we get a bit older, a bit wiser and I've had a few more hard knocks, we realised, yeah, shit that really isn't the right way to go about trying to get help.
Ingrid Lindberg:
I think it's super funny. I feel like millennials have gotten a bad rap on this, not a millennial. And I was an ass when I was in my twenties. Right. To do with what generates would I happen to be in? I think it just was my age, right? Yeah. The arrogance of youth and the arrogance of elders. Right.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Maybe, but mostly, I think it kind of dropped with drive if comes these accidental, like negative sides to your strengths. Right. So if you're ambitious and you driven and you determined wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. But sometimes how that can be interpreted by other people, especially if you're direct in communication is seen as aggressive.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Spot on. Right. It's hard. It's untenable frankly. I think specifically as women, because we're expected to be nice and kind, and calm and strong and stand up. And I'm like, I can't do both of those. I literally could not, you know, I couldn't go into combat in high heels, so yeah, we'll get there. It's just going to be, we have to keep learning and sharing so we will get there.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
So it's Confidence and self awareness then I'm guessing is the kind of winning combo then?
Ingrid Lindberg:
For success. I think so. I mean, I think so. I think there's a lot of humility that needs to come in. Right. There's a lot of humility that needs to come in, but you also have to know your stuff and there's a very delicate balance between knowing your stuff and actually kind of being humble about the fact that you learned that by making a bunch of mistakes.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
My final question then, what would you advice be for all the women out there in CX? What would you like to say to them?
Ingrid Lindberg:
So we'll focus on women in CX. So women in CX I think the, the best super power that I found in my CX journey was that everything that I did was data-based right. Everything was data-based. I am a firm believer in your opinion, although interesting is irrelevant. Show me the data cause everyone has an opinion. So find your data and use your data. That's really important. I found that to be very helpful for me. The second thing, and we've touched on this a bit, right? The second thing is it really is about finding your voice and your voice doesn't have to be always big or always loud. Your voice doesn't have to be small and soft, but your voice has to be your voice, right? There's no one who can tell you what your voice should sound like other than you. So you have to find your voice. And I think so often we're told to take up more space or be smaller, or be more effective or be less effective. Screw all of that, find your voice, find your voice and use it. And then third, I think this one is, this one was really important. I was talking to a couple of my friends over the weekend about doing this podcast and prepping for it. And we talked a lot about like, how would you, how do you help others? Right. And I think the third thing that I'll tell people is really pay attention to who you learn from really pay attention to who you choose to learn from, because there's a lot of information in the CX space. And what you have to do is you have to find someone that you actually want to emulate, right? You have to find someone who you believe or who you have, you know, I've seen produce results or whatever. It may be, whatever that thing is that you're after, but you've got to find that. And I think those three, if you use data, always you find your voice and use your voice. And then you find to learn from that really is what you want to be like. Right. Either as a practitioner, as a person, as a professional choose any, I think those three sets you up on a pretty decent course to do some pretty crazy good work. That's my advice.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
I love those three pieces of advice and I just like to thank you so much for taking the time to come on our show today.
Ingrid Lindberg:
Thank you, Clare! It's been fun talking to you. So thank you. I was delighted when you asked and even more delighted we got to connect today.
Clare Muscutt- Host:
Oh, I thank you so much. And just one more. Thank you to everybody. That's been listening along today and a final thank you to Joakim Thörn our producer and our sponsors Effectly. That's it for this week. Thanks everyone. I'll say bye now by Ingrid. Take care!!