Clare Muscutt talks with Maya Khalifa about GCC CX & challenging gender-equality in the Middle East.
Episode #204 Show Notes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Hi, Maya!
Maya Khalifeh:
Hi, Clare. How are you?
Clare Muscutt – host:
I’m amazing. How are you?
Maya Khalifeh:
I’m doing great. I’m so happy I got the chance, finally, to have this interview.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, I know. Third time lucky, right? After all the technical hitches. It’s the wonders of having to communicate through Zoom these days.
So, just before we start, I just wanted to ask with you being from Lebanon, how are things going in Beirut?
Maya Khalifeh:
Well, I can honestly say it was hard time recently. We had the Beirut blast two months ago, and it was really hard. It’s now a fight against the people who are stealing the money from Lebanon, so against our government, against the corruption. So, we hope to win the fight because it’s really sad to see a country with all the potential that its people have just having a government that is corrupt. So, now, we are fighting – with the Western countries – against the corruption. We hope to win.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, I hope you win, too.
So, basically, the theme of our conversation today is going to be around changing the perception of gender stereotypes in the Middle East. My first question – just as a woman who grew up in a very different place to you, I know that Lebanon had a history of real civil unrest right up to today, as you just described, where the government corruption has been problematic for the people – what was it like growing up as a woman in Lebanon?
Maya Khalifeh:
Well, growing up in Lebanon was a little bit hard because we had 30 years of war in Lebanon, and the 30 years of war need so much time to revitalise the economy, the stability, the security. So, it was definitely hard. However, the Lebanese people – and if you get to meet Lebanese people in Europe, in the US, anywhere in the world, you’ll notice something about them – they are resilient, okay? That’s why they say we are like the phoenix bird. We get through problems, but we are resilient. We try to pass them. We try to pass the problems instead of just living in it and dying in the problem that you are through. So, it was definitely hard – not just as a woman – it was hard as a human being living in Lebanon. And it is hard, now. So, we learn the resilience due to such a history in Lebanon.
Clare Muscutt – host:
A history of struggle, but you’re turning that around into a positive in being able to survive and thrive in what is, unequivocally, a difficult time.
Maya Khalifeh:
Yes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I was thinking about the impression that, perhaps, Western women have of the Middle East and women from the Middle East being quite oppressed by things like Sharia law, and if I question my own judgement, having spoken to you, I know that it’s not the reality. But could you tell me more about the concept and the constructs of male guardianship, and what’s being done to reform this in the Middle East?
Maya Khalifeh:
Well, definitely there is a lot being done right now in the Middle East to reverse this view of women in the Middle East. And I am personally on a mission to say that women are empowered; women are independent on their own; they don’t need the man to thrive and succeed in life.
If I want to compare, as a Middle Eastern woman, I’m really proud to see what Saudi Arabia under the patronage of Mohammed bin Salman are preparing for under Vision 2030, where a lot of women empowerment is done in a country that is really safe and secure. I travel all the time to Saudi Arabia, so I live that area of security and stability. So, there’s a lot being done in a short period of time, like the women were not allowed to drive before, and now you see women driving around in Saudi Arabia. So, the Middle East, which contains different countries, other countries – like Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon – in parallel, is one of the regions in the world where it has the lowest participation of the women in the workforce. We have not just the right, but the duty to fight for that. We need to be asking for safe public transportation, like we see in the UK. We need to be asking for women equality in the workforce, so that the women can participate more in this region of the world.
Clare Muscutt – host:
You just mentioned there, safe transport. What’s unsafe about it at the moment for women?
Maya Khalifeh:
Well, you don’t have public transportation for women. We have many barriers that we need to pass. You don’t have public transportation. You still have the man who thinks that he is allowed to ask his wife not to work, and the wife will accept that because her husband is asking for this. We have to change the mindset that women – we have really, really in the region, the women are ambitious; they are educated; they want to prove themselves. So, we have to change this and empower the women, look at the women in the other countries, and tell them, ‘You can do. You can perform. You can succeed on your own. You don’t need the man, the male guardianship with you.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. What’s going to change that? You mentioned the sheikh is reforming some laws?
Maya Khalifeh:
Yes. So, you have leading countries in the GCC who are leading these laws and changing the way the woman is viewed. In Lebanon, where I belong, the woman is empowered. Plus, we have a very good education system that was not affected by the war that ravaged our country. However, in other countries, like in UAE, like in Saudi Arabia, the women are taking from the government official initiatives – and this is so happy news – to help them to become empowered on their own, to help them to pass through work and life changes without feeling insecure and the need for the man. We are not here to compete with the man; we complement each other, and we want to be viewed as such.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Is it helping men to change their perception of women, as well as helping women to change the perception of themselves?
Maya Khalifeh:
Yes. Yes, exactly. We need to look in the women and tell them, ‘You deserve. This is your right as a human being.’ What’s beautiful is that you have leaders like Mohammed bin Salman pushing for this, so you’ll see the whole country moving towards that direction. We hope that Saudi Arabia teaches the other surrounding countries what they are doing so that the other countries do this, as well.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Is there quite a conflict with religious belief and female empowerment, then?
Maya Khalifeh:
I don’t want to interfere with the religious beliefs. For me, the human being is a human being disregarding what religion he belongs to. He should be treat others nicely, and kindly, and equally. So, I am sure that all religions will want the women to shine in life. You want this for the generations to come. I would be really disappointed to know that my daughter will grow up in an environment that does not believe in women empowerment. I do everything do so that my kids look up and say, ‘We can achieve. We can become whatever we want to become,’ disregarding if it’s a boy or a girl.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And you are definitely a very incredibly strong role model.
Maya Khalifeh:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I saw your article challenging the stereotypes and sharing your perspective on women in the GCC being just as ambitious as women in the West. I just wanted to ask you, what frustrates you about the stereotype? And what needs to change, I guess on the Western side, to ensure that women are seen for their strength as opposed to their struggle?
Maya Khalifeh:
So, we want to know, we want to teach the Western that the women in the Middle East, they are ambitious; they want to achieve corporate positions. I want to make it clear that it’s not our fight in the Middle East alone. 15 per cent of C-level positions worldwide are held only by women. Only 15 per cent! This is not our fight alone. This is the fight of all women in the world. This is our right. The Arab woman, herself, and the Western woman has to believe in herself.
Do you know that the woman will only apply for a job if she feels she fits 100 per cent of the job offer, whereas the man will apply if he feels he fits 60 per cent of the job offer? We need to believe in ourselves more. We need to teach our friends, the women, we need to teach our kids, we need to teach our environment that they need to believe in themselves before teaching the men and our counterparts about it; we need to believe in it ourselves.
The second thing is that as the women, we see ourselves at equal distance from the man, in the region here, that’s why you’ll see women asking for divorce – it’s not like people think in the Western world – you’ll see women being on their own; asking for divorce; asking for custody of their children. So, on the other hand, we have a lot of work that we need to do ourselves, being the country, the region, the Middle East, as the region has the least women in the workforce worldwide. So, there should be reforms on a country-level, country-by-country, to fix this matter.
So, there is a long road, and it needs resilience – it needs strength – to reach the ultimate goals that we would like to achieve. And it’s not our work alone. You hear with the corona how many women in the Western world were hit by men during this lockdown. So, this is a global initiative that should be led for women empowerment. Women should not accept to be hit by men, not even once. When I watch CNN, when I watch the Western news, and I am totally sad to hear that, even in the Western world, we see all the time – maybe more than in our region here – we see all the time this going on.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah, violence against women definitely is a global problem. So, how do you think women from the West and the Middle East can work together better to change stereotypes, and change culture, and change female empowerment? How do you think we best do that?
Maya Khalifeh:
Yeah, yeah. There should be initiatives to join forces all together at a global level between the West and our region. We can have summits in Dubai, for instance, women summits in Dubai where we’re gathering from the West and from our region, or in Saudi Arabia, where these two countries are really in a beautiful way leading change and woman empowerment. So, we have to acknowledge the problem is not in the Middle East; the problem is everywhere in the world.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yes.
Maya Khalifeh:
This 15 per cent in the leadership positions is everywhere; it’s not in the Middle East alone. If I go to Europe, it’s 15 per cent of women only in the leadership board, and that’s so upsetting to see. So, there should be a global movement for women to ask for their right and acknowledge this is not what we want, and we have to change it.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Brilliant. I think having conversations like these, for me personally, is one of the best ways to understand the similarities and differences between women from different backgrounds or culture. I’ve had my eyes opened so much by interacting with women I perhaps would not have met had we not had coronavirus, and the ability to reach out, connect, and get on Zoom. So, I’d encourage anybody, any women in CX, to reach out and connect with people like Maya, and get to know the similarities and the differences, and share that vision of working together. It’s also made me think, when we eventually have Women in CX community events, we’ll definitely have to put one on in Dubai when we’re allowed to meet together, and physically…
Maya Khalifeh:
Oh, my god. Even in Saudi Arabia! Saudi Arabia is a beautiful country. They have the Red Sea beach.
Clare Muscutt – host:
We’ll go to the beach. That sounds amazing.
So, my last question just around your background and stuff is around – I saw that you recently won the Professional of the Year award…
Maya Khalifeh:
Yes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… that’s something that I won in 2011 in the UK, so I know it’s an amazing platform to cast your career off from in CX. But how is CX evolving in the GCC, and what was the experience like of winning that award for you?
Maya Khalifeh:
So, it was really amazing to win it. It’s a journey, as you know, it’s not just winning the day of the winning; it’s the whole application process, and being part of the finals, and getting in front of the jury. Getting to look at people, and them telling you, ‘You are doing a wonderful job that is world-class. You are a role model for the society.’ As a woman, this is the message that I want beyond anything. And when I won the award, I said, ‘I’m offering this award to the other women who work and thrive in the society. In such a tough environment, they are really challenging the stereotype and fighting, which is double as hard as in the West in such a thing.’ So, winning it was really wonderful.
In parallel, CX is a major area to focus on in the GCC. You see CX at the level of the government, like initiatives in terms of citizen experience. It’s really amazing how it’s being worked on the level of the government and on the level of companies. Before the corona, we did not have it as much as now, like everybody is talking in the GCC now about customer experience and digital transformation that are going hand-in-hand as part of the business transformation of companies.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s fascinating. I just have to pick up on what you said there. So, was that in your acceptance speech, you dedicated your award to all the women in the GCC who are working in CX?
Maya Khalifeh:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I love that. You are one inspiring woman.
Maya Khalifeh:
Oh, my god, because this is the message that we want to send. We want to send as women, you are independent. You can achieve whatever you want to achieve, no matter what. You work hard, you achieve it. You are on your own. You should be resilient. These are key messages that we have a role in transmitting to the society. We don’t want the women to be looked at, not just in the Middle East…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Everywhere.
Maya Khalifeh:
… everywhere in the world, they look at the women as a fragile entity. No, we’re not fragile! We are as strong as the male counterpart, okay?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Sometimes stronger!
Maya Khalifeh:
Yeah! Of course.
Clare Muscutt – host:
We can have babies.
Maya Khalifeh:
Of course.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Ah, that’s amazing. So, what would your advice be for women in customer experience?
Maya Khalifeh:
Okay, so I have three top messages that I wanted to say today through this podcast.
First of all: sit at the table. Even if you’re not invited, bring your chair, and sit.
The second message that I want to say is communicate what you want. We expect that people would know what you want. People don’t know. People will not fight for you. Communicate what you want, and continuously iterate, ‘Okay, if this doesn’t work, let’s try something else.’ This is the power of design thinking itself, where you know what you want, you communicate it clearly. The other person refuses your message; you try another way, but you keep on communicating.
And the third and last: don’t leave before you leave. So, really, the women worldwide – because I see it a problem everywhere – they say, ‘Okay, at the age of 40, I want to have my kids, and I want to have these goals,’ and they start to shape their life from – I don’t know which age – around that concept, and they refuse opportunities in life because they are surrounding themselves around that concept.
So, don’t leave before you leave. Keep on fighting. Keep on sitting on the table. Keep on communicating what you want. And be resilient because life is hard, but it’s beautiful.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Ah, that’s so inspiring! Honestly, I feel like I could just take on the world having spoken to you, Maya.
So, just to summarise, thank you so much for coming on the show, today, and sharing your insights. And for a lot of the women from the West who have listened to this today, I’m sure we’ve learnt a lot. And for the women that are from the Middle East, they’re probably standing right behind you, now, saying what a wonderful, inspiring role model you are, not only to your children…
Maya Khalifeh:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… your daughters – which I know are so important that you want them to grow up feeling that they’ve got the power – but also your fellow females in your region, and actually women like me from all around the world. I’d just like to say you are one inspiring woman in CX. Thank you so much for coming on the show, today.
Maya Khalifeh:
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
And let’s look forward to Women in CX conference in the UAE…
Maya Khalifeh:
Yes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… or Saudi Arabia soon. You take care!
Maya Khalifeh:
Yes, would love to.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Bye!
Maya Khalifeh:
Bye.