‘Is it really all in our heads?’ Addressing imposter syndrome and workplace bias with Ewa Davenport
Episode #707 show notes:
Clare:
We’re back with another episode of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast!
A series usually dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience and technology, this series we’re putting some of our awesome allies in the hot seat too!
No longer rehashing the same old conversations, in series 7, you can expect plenty of healthy debate and provocative discourse as we challenge the status quo on CX and topics affecting women in the workplace.
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to one seriously inspiring lady from right here in the UK.
The CX Senior Transformation Director at Kantar, her skillset lies in managing complex transformational programmes that deliver tangible change for businesses and their customers.
Passionate about championing the voices of women as both consumers and business leaders, she believes true CX excellence starts with a change in the very systems that exclude and marginalise women.
In her personal life, she’s an advocate for women's rights, particularly reproductive rights as those are the foundation upon which women can build their futures, pursue their dreams, and participate fully in society.
Let me introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, Ewa Davenport.
Clare:
Hi Ewa.
Ewa:
Hello Clare.
Clare:
Welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast.
Ewa:
Absolute pleasure and privilege to be here. You know, I always question this [inaudible] I have as an inspiring woman, which is, I guess a segue into our topic about imposter syndrome. Isn't it, really?
Clare:
But yeah, we shouldn't be questioning ourselves when others think so highly of us. Why do we question whether or not that's the truth? But yeah, welcome to everybody who's listening or watching wherever you are as well. And as always, we're just going to dive straight into this. So, Ewa, I'm sure our audience would love to know a little bit more about you, if you'd like to share a bit about your career journey and how you ended up where you are today.
Ewa:
Okay. And actually, it's always interesting that someone asks you that question because you can tell this story in about 15 different ways, right. Depending on where you ended up. In a very short sort of bracey. Hello, I'm Eva Davenport. I'm a Senior Client Success Director at Kantar. Currently have been here for the last ten years. I am originally Polish, so I came to this country somewhere at the beginning of the noughties and started my career in sort of standard market research and then sort of progressed through the ranks and have done loads of different methodologies and different disciplines from brand to pricing to CX.
Ewa:
And somehow in the last several years, starting with maybe CX that was sort of off-platform, more strategic CX about 10/11 years ago to really getting into the CX, the modern CX, which is high volume transactional customer feedback driving real change in organisations, informed by customer feedback. Really centring that customer feedback in conversations both internally and externally is what I kind of ended up doing. So, I work with a variety of quite large organisations. My passion is financial services, but I also work with travel. The reason I kind of smiled when I said financial services is because sometimes people feel like banking/financial services is not a particularly exciting topic, but money is such an emotive topic for most and I love making a difference with kind of well-delivered CX in that particular industry. So that's a little bit about it.
Clare:
Love it. And for anyone who is just listening to the podcast, you're really missing out because Ewa is always snappily dressed and today has the most amazing cat collar on. So yeah, you have to check out the YouTube video too. So, just to position this podcast today, this comes after an absolutely epic event that we held on International Women's Day at Kantar's head office, where we brought together 50 women from across the UK who came to watch the most incredible panel of which Ewa was one of our panellists. And our theme for International Women's Day and Women's History Month was actually not failing into the #InspireInclusion, very performative stuff that was happening around International Women's Day. We were like, what's it actually going to take for women to really be included? And the reason we chose imposter syndrome as a topic was actually because of a recent report that we did as women in CX. So, listeners, for anyone who wasn't there, we talked about the fact that women experience imposter syndrome in the workplace significantly more than men. So, I think 62% of men versus 73% of women.
Clare:
But when we did our Women in CX Global Study 2023, we uncovered that 84% of respondents actually experience imposter syndrome when they work in the customer experience industry. So we opened up the session talking about it being kind of unsurprising when customer experience is the one department where we're asked to prove our value more than anywhere else, more than sales, more than marketing, more than any other team, that quite often we're in a position where we're working horizontally across the organisation, but have zero ownership for any of the changes we're actually recommending that get implemented. A lot of the time we're struggling with senior sponsorship, and may not have a customer experience-oriented CEO or top leadership team, so we might not have that presence or voice on the board. So, when we couple the gender-agnostic challenges of working in CX with gender bias, and the reality of actually, women and minorities are othered in the workplace, it's unsurprising that it has this magnifying effect for women in customer experience. So today we thought we'd get together on this podcast to delve a little bit deeper into one of the questions you answered, which was really around this intersection with not only, I guess, imposter syndrome, but why we're experiencing it as women. And to build upon that, the panel actually concluded that we don't all have imposter syndrome. We're being told that as women, but actually what we're really experiencing is systemic bias. So, I'm going to start with that question.
Clare:
Do you believe that the othering of women and minorities contributes to our experience of the phenomenon that is imposter syndrome?
Ewa:
Oh, absolutely, yes. And there's not just kind of anecdotal evidence of it, but there's actually actual studies around this. And I always like to start with definitions. What is it? Because when we talk about systemic violence and it's so many things to so many people, and I like to start with definition, so we're very clear on what we're talking about. So, forgive me, I'm just going to read it out. So, in systemic bias, institutional practices tend to exhibit a bias which leads to the preferential treatment or advantage of a specific social group, whilst others experience disadvantage or devaluation. This bias might not necessarily stem from intentional prejudice or discrimination, but rather from the adherence to establish rules and norms by the majority.
Ewa:
And I think the reason why I really want to get into the definition is that kind of talking about discrimination or bias, people can get very sort of defensive about it and kind of go, but I am not this, I am not that, and I'm an open-minded person, et cetera. And I think it's very important to note that there doesn't have to be malice. Discrimination of place doesn't come from a person wearing like, a pair of horns, you know, and being, you know, sort of malicious or evil. It's very often by societal norms that sort of happen and everyone subscribes to them and doesn't question them. And it can happen in a myriad of ways. I call it the kind of death by 1000 cuts where you go into your daily environment and you experience those either like little microaggressions from people drawn to your otherness in any shape or form, whether you are the only woman in a very male environment, or if you're the only black woman in a very white environment, or if you're a queer person in a heteronormative environment. And this could be where people self-censor around. A very good example of this is for queer people.
Ewa:
What did you do last weekend? And everyone's like, oh, well, I was out of my family, I was out of my boyfriend, I was out of my girlfriend. And then the person has to think, talking about their partner, whether it's okay to name the same-sex partner in that conversation, right? It could be around religion as well. People are like, I don't want to talk about going to certain religious practices in case it outs that I am of that religion and there is prejudice around it. So, there could be so many of those, and we almost enter those spaces. And very often like water to a fish when you swim in it, you don't know it exists. This is why there is also this phenomenon of often the minorities themselves, or like the discriminated groups also upholding those structures because a, they want to fit in, b, sometimes they're not even conscious that they've accepted some of those narratives themselves and then they are perpetuating them themselves.
Ewa:
So, I think the important part here is that we all have a part in it. It's not malicious. You don't have to bully someone in a meeting to perpetrate systemic bias. It could be about the time that you booked the meeting for. Have you booked across 09:00 am where a lot of women take their children to school? Because a lot of women are the default parent and carry a lot of their household and planning responsibilities, for example. Or in fact, there's like a bias against, for example, single women where it's like, oh, well, they have nothing else to do. Yeah, so you can work till 10:00 or clock off at five, right? And you're just going to pick it up.
Ewa:
So, it's complex, but yet there is lots of common sense to this if you kind of go, right, am I just behaving from my perspective? Have I been curious enough about being engaged with how other people live? So, in summary, that, yes.
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Clare:
Interesting. And I was going to say, for anyone who wasn't at the event, we did have great representation on the panel itself. So, we were super conscious that we only had our own perspective and lived experience. So, being able to include women that could speak from a racial perspective, sexual orientation, neurodivergence, and then there were all these other facets that we all shared as well, then, wasn't it? Whether it was motherhood or being single, but also age came up. Weight, body size, image, these expectations that I think just to drop into that conditioning that we internalise about what we're supposed to be. So, I just wanted to pick up on two of the points that you shared there. Firstly, that initial awareness. I remember when I started to educate myself about intersectional feminism, it was like I felt this penny drop and then I'd taken the red pill and I was never going to see the world the same way again after I became aware of what I guess I'd also been so conditioned to just think to be normal, particularly in marketing and advertising.
Clare:
And again, kind of like growing up in the noughties, experiencing, I think, just this absolute prevalence of women's value being attributed so much to what we look like and how nice we are. And then working my way up in the workplace and experiencing, I suppose, as a young woman in business, that sense of, well, you don't know what you're talking about because you've only been here five minutes. Or being hushed in a room by my boss because they didn't feel it was appropriate for me to be talking about this thing or casual sexism or blatant sexism or perving in the workplace and always thinking up until this moment where the penny dropped that it was a me problem. There was something I wasn't doing right.
Ewa:
Yeah.
Clare:
And then secondly… Sorry.
Ewa:
Actually, on that one, it's also an interesting one that when you're talking about sort of casual sexism, it's not only a you problem. Like, you could even be told that actually it's not okay. However, it was your problem to resolve. Which is why I think when we were talking about it at the time, on the day, in the room, like, a lot, absolutely every single woman is nodding about having to strategise around really poor behaviours like casual sexual harassment in the office, in the noughties it was particularly out of control, I think whichever wave of feminism was that at the time. But it was this whole concept. So that we're just going to be like men.
Ewa:
We're just going to be like… And you had to be a cool girl. And just kind of… It was almost like, oh, well, you're…
Clare:
Bantering with the lads.
Ewa:
Bantering with the lads. I'll give as good as I get. And all this sort of stuff, which is actually exhausting. And the inauthenticity around it, is absolutely sort of damaging. And I really relate to what you say when you were, like, when you found the moment where you went, oh, hold on a second, none of this is okay. Oh, Jesus. I also have to say that I was perpetuating some of it so someone would say, no, I just have a suboptimal experience with someone. I'd be like, you know, actually, you just need to know how to deal with it. You just need to be tough and sort of, therefore inadvertently okaying that behaviour for a younger colleague or a peer.
Ewa:
Where I shudder now, when I think about this, that's especially the noughties. Noughties are particularly naughty, I would say, in that regard. Yeah, sorry, you were making your second point and I interrupted you.
Clare:
No, I think we're just agreeing. So that kind of point of awareness. But then also that internalisation that leads us to perpetuate the things that we want to stand against. And then the intersectional perspective for me was, I suppose I only ever really experienced bias due to my gender and my age. To some extent, my class, when I first started out, because I went to a red brick university, was like a working-class, agriculture-type background where everybody else had been to these really posh schools and spoke with really amazing posh accents. But I'd never experienced bias because of my skin colour, race, sexual orientation, or queerness. Nothing really prepared me for that experience of that next step into intersectional feminism and realising, oh my god, I've actually got it easy. I've got so much privilege here where I guess when I got to start Women in CX, I was able to hand the mic over to people to talk about their lived and shared experiences I think this has had one of the biggest impacts on me is being able to hear from other people what it feels like for them, and that perpetuating the bias, I guess, mission for me is helping to educate more women about this reality. And I think we did a fantastic job over Women's History Month with our campaign and our events all over the world but continuing to drive that. So, I thought I'd like to ask you the question about how we challenge systemic bias in and out of the workplace. What are your thoughts on that?
Ewa:
Oh, God. It's almost like, how do you solve this massive problem? Right? I would say I'm an action woman, sometimes to my detriment. Let's just get on with it, right? I think I'll build on something you said where you said, despite me going to university, being from a working-class background, kind of entering this world, which was self-referencing and quite closed, and then having to sort of fit into it, but then realising that there's actually, like, you're actually a white woman, so you can pass, okay, you have probably, like, a regional accent, but you can soften it and you can fit in, and no one's going to other you because of your skin colour, which you cannot hide, right? So, you have some power. I think being aware of the power and not giving it away freely and being that bit brave when you are in a position of power, any power is really crucial here. So, it's very easy to kind of go, oh, it's all systemic, and therefore, what can I do? What can I do? Actually, we can act in a multitude of ways to call out certain behaviours, whether it is to educate politely, whether it is to stand up for those who have less privilege than we do. And I think the importance of those small steps cannot be underestimated.
Ewa:
I think building allyships across the kind of power structure. So, in my career I've met many male allies who are like, you are brilliant and I'm going to really stand up for you. So, then I was in the tent. So, then I was able to go, right, let me open that door a bit wider to let more people in and make sure that they kind of benefited as well. So, you can have people who have pull up the ladders the moment they get there. They're like, and I'm sure that in our careers we've met plenty of women doing that. Yes, we have. Don't pull up the ladders.
Ewa:
Don't be that person. By the way, we women see those women and like, you're not getting away from it scot-free. We see you, right? But also, don't feel powerless in situations where… Find the moment where you have some power. And I think still then there's a systemic piece where it's about educating, agitating, going to protests if you need to, getting involved in women's rights organisations. I'm very involved in those from a productive rights point of view. The two posters behind me, the handmade one that says WTF Poland and that relates to the abortion ban in 2020 in Poland. Those two in the little cat are protest posters from Polish abortion rights protests.
Clare:
I've seen you on Instagram with your megaphone protesting.
Ewa:
Always. So, you can do that. But also, I'm typically a person who's quite out there and talkative. If you're kind of looking at this and going, oh, I couldn't possibly do this. All protest movements, all activist movements, all female movements, meet all sorts of people. If you are the quiet person that gets stuff done, if you're the person that kind of organises everybody in the background and you don't necessarily want to be on the barricade, you are still needed. Right? So, join organisations that are already doing this. Educate yourself in making sure that you kind of know your rights and challenge as you go along because it's not going to change from someone else telling us how to do this. It's going to change when we choose the path. Right? We were laughing about this before the call.
Ewa:
Right? Use your power. And I always say I've got this slight sort of older woman privilege now.
Clare:
Oh, yeah.
Ewa:
Which is I'm in my late forties and I worked very hard in my career and also had some privilege, like white privilege. And being a person, that sort of is easier for some within systemic bias to be listened to. But I got here and now I'm in a fairly senior position. Therefore, I have some power to call things out, to request change, to hold people to account. And we were laughing, I think, before the call, about the fact that as women, we are either too young, then for, like, about 15 minutes, we are just the right age and then we are too old and ageism comes in, right? And then it's like, goodbye. So, I'm very, working very hard on extending the 15 minutes, right? And I think everybody should be, but when you have that 15 minutes, work for it, right? Put that ladder down, and get people up it. Make sure that you are absolutely optimising that moment and the stern mum energy that now I have a child and sometimes brings order to the room.
Ewa:
Also, another privilege I have is being Eastern European, which actually, was something that was working against me a lot. And for anyone listening especially my Eastern Europeans, many of you might find yourselves in what I share. Many of you non-eastern Europeans might be like, oh, I never thought about this, and I hope you will think about that. But Eastern European women, although we have white privilege, are very often objectified as sex objects. I had jokes made to my face about males or the brides being a good cleaner. If you look at Eastern European women, representation in the media, in the arts, we are usually represented as sort of mute abuse sex workers in a gritty cop drama. That is literally the role we have. So, I have to go against that.
Ewa:
But we also have gifts within our range. Like Eastern Europeans. We are, especially for British people, we're typically very direct. We get to the crux of the issue. So, you know, when you have, like, five British people around the table and they're like and on the other hand, and should we consider this? And this would be interesting, I kind of very often just use my Polishness and go, guys, seriously. So, we have about 15 minutes to this meeting.
Ewa:
The outcome is supposed to be this. We’re nowhere near there. What are the three next actions we need to take? You know I'm not going to mess about because I’m Polish. And everyone goes, oh, yeah. And actually, people welcome it on my feedback forms. I always get straight to the point, am very decisive, speak the truth, is very honest, and you can get the truth from her. And I think in all your otherness, you will have certain advantages versus the majority. You'll have those niche little golden nugget skills that the Norman culture might not have, and you can contribute those, and you can use those.
Ewa:
Find your gold.
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Clare:
With you, we definitely don't have to mine very deeply. It's shining through just to dig a little bit deeper into just to the actions that you recommended. So, you said politely educating and calling it out. And obviously, in a corporate environment, we need to also maintain relationships. Do you have any examples or ways in which women can politely educate and politely call it out?
Ewa:
So, first of all, I will call myself out here. I said politely. Right? Because women are always polite, and we’re supposed to moderate. When men are being aggressive, it's like, oh, he's a go-getter and he doesn't mess about, he gets what he wants. Aggression is kind of rewarded, but when.
Clare:
We do anything that involves any kind of emotion, we're just emotional, therefore worse leaders, or we're being bossy, or we're being demanding…
Ewa:
Neurotic.
Clare:
Yeah, what can we do?
Ewa:
So, first of all, there are so many kind of ways of addressing this, but I always kind of take a step back. When there's a moment in which you have to pull something out, I always take a step back and connect it to business benefit. Business money talks. Business talks. Our inclusion index shows that actually true diversity and true representation of opinions bring business benefits. Companies that are more inclusive just do better. They extend their market. And in CX is particularly important because if you exclude any groups from your customer base because your experience is not inclusive, you're losing revenue.
Ewa:
So sometimes it will be hard cold money, and money talks. If you can make a business case around inclusivity that's number based. Very often people are quite resistant to that sort of fluffy thing that people very often in positions of power kind of see as some sort of value-added nice thing that people are just doing. If you can evidence it, the better. I would say that my kind of interventions in this area ranged from literally calling something out on a call and just being a bit brave and using my position, power, and personal power to do so in an assertive but clear way, boundary-setting way. Well, this comment is not entirely helpful. Also, if something was done, kind of sort of live in a moment and it triggered you to think about it, what was it and how you want to address it. So, I had a situation at work in the last couple of weeks where there were slightly sort of men centring comments going on when we're organising women-based events, and men were like, what about the men? And unfortunately, not sure how many men will be watching this.
Ewa:
I will say it for the benefit of women. If you ever saw, like us, women organising and the men kind of going, what about the men? When is the International Men's Day? They've got one. You've got one. It's in November and you didn't do anything about it because you are very used to having women organise your lives and organise all the events for you. Therefore, it's very hard for you to all self-organise. I'm just now speaking there. That's how it is, my dear men.
Ewa:
What about men? I had some sideline conversations around this. I kind of went, I'm not going to call it out on a call with loads of people on it, but I will say that that was suboptimal. We need to think about it slightly differently. By the way, this is the evidence of why this matters and this is how you can support it. So, call out, and suggest improved behaviour in a moment or when you've had time to reflect. I was thinking about using your allies sometimes. You know what? If it needs to be a man-to-man conversation, get an ally to have that conversation. I also had this where I was like, this was suboptimal, x, y, z.
Ewa:
Do you mind having a bloke-to-bloke chat about this to this person? And they did because good allies do that for us.
Clare:
Yeah. And they start to normalise it. It's not normal to talk like that. I was just thinking of my examples. When you catch that whiff of sexism, for example, what exactly do you mean by that? And just asking another question and literally just get this shocked, stunned look and quite often an immediate apology or, I didn't mean it like that kind of look. And then when I've done it on LinkedIn, a very famous example where this influencer was being really respectful to every man that commented on his post. And whenever a woman commented, it was like super dismissive and it was just like a clear trend, like, oh, I don't know what you're saying because you haven't used punctuation there. And I called it out on the post and oh my God, all hell broke loose.
Clare:
He ended up taking the whole conversation down, coming after me in DM and long story short, appears every now and again, just like saying something about me calling him a sexist and then deleting it within about five minutes again. But yeah, it's scary sometimes to do that, but rather than I found it easier, I guess rather than trying to go in with this is the logic and the reasons why that's not cool, just individually or personally in the moment, just saying, what exactly do you mean by that?
Ewa:
And just looking do explain what you meant by this comment. It is actually quite sobering. And can I just say, I am sorry this happened to you, and it is a frequent experience. And just listening to your story, I had like a proxy sort of stress of this happening to me because we women understand this, right, where you call it out and suddenly there's a temperature change. And this person clearly has really taken it to heart to go into your DMs, call you out, then delete. There's some stuff going on for them.
Clare:
Oh, definitely. It was actually quite scary.
Ewa:
But yeah, I think you are highlighting a very important thing.
Clare:
The thing levelled at me most often about Women in CX is that that must mean, therefore, I'm excluding men. And that therefore defeats the purpose of having a community that's gendered in the first place. And my response is always, look when we don't need safe spaces for women to have conversations, I'll be totally happy for Women in CX not to need to exist, but right now, we do. So, jog on.
Ewa:
Clare, and can I just say, I think this is accusation level to any group that sort of self-organises within itself...
Clare:
By men, though, by the way, not by women as often.
Ewa:
And I always think, like, we need safe spaces. It's a completely different level of conversation when the group can talk within a safe space. That's why you have, like, mother and baby groups. That's why you have female entrepreneur groups. Because we come up against challenges that are very unique to our group. Whether it's black women, whether it's women in CX, whether it's mothers of neurodivergent children, whether it's neurodivergent female entrepreneurs. We all have a certain set of circumstances in which we experience very specific kinds of bias. And therefore, us being able to talk about any moderation, any self-censoring, and thinking about how that's going to land over there.
Ewa:
And in fact, if there's going to be a man that's sitting going, but what about the men? And we are ending up talking about men's issues rather than women's issues. Those spaces are precious, and they need to be protected, and they need to be supported, and we need to stand for those spaces to exist. And that's why I love Women in CX. One of the big reasons why it's such an empowering space. When we kind of get into a room together, the roof starts quaking because energy is there and women just connecting. And emotional safety is a huge part of success in business.
Clare:
I've honestly never seen anything like it at conference or our meetups, the walls just all come down. Everybody's immediately vulnerable, and authentic. Doesn't matter if we're in the same industry, in the online community even. Everybody has fallen over each other to help each other answer a question. There's no kind of competitive aspect. And in the majority of spaces, events, and communities, there is always that kind of threat and we just don't have that, which is amazing. I was going to say just a shout-out to allyship as well. So, Ian Golding, a very prominent man in CX, was totally vocal at our conference, saying he often got asked the question, why do we need Women in CX? And then after the conference, at the conference and after he said specifically, I was there, I saw it, we need this.
Clare:
It's incredible. And we'll talk to anybody out there saying that. He's like, whenever anyone ever questions that again, I'll be telling them. And we've been very fortunate, I think, to have some really high-profile male allies supporting us. But look at the time, we've run out.
Ewa:
I know, talk all day. Such an amazing conversation. We could talk about this for hours and hours and hours, right? But obviously, no one's going to… We don't want to take too much of the time.
Clare:
I'll tell you what we should do, we should do the panel online. We should get the panel back together again so everybody can actually feel and experience the things that we've been talking about today, where we've been referencing members of the panel sharing experiences. Let's get something sorted around that.
Ewa:
Yes, let’s, and that's one of the reasons is because we had such a brilliant representative panel in terms of race and also neurodivergence and sexual orientation that the perspectives were so eye-opening. And I'll call it the little kind of traps in your head when you've got conditioning and the trap opens and you won't close again, and then you get so empowered to go, right, I'm going to stand up for this or I'm going to do this differently, or I'm going to add value here with this new perspective that can actually make the experience and CX better for absolutely everybody involved.
Clare:
Absolutely. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. If there was one final piece of advice or top takeaway that you'd like to leave the audience with today, what would that be?
Ewa:
That's a tough one because there are so many different things. But I do think that one of the biggest takeaways for me over the years has been to find the hidden gold of your otherness. Find it, embrace it, bring it out. It's a gift that you give to people, whether it's your honesty, whether it's your storytelling, even whether it's like a cultural context from which you come where things are being done differently and you can name it and you can use it and you can actually enrich people's lives with it and the otherness can be a secret weapon.
Clare:
The final message for me is just keeping it real, right? So, whether that's you not having to adjust the way that you are to try to fit into what society would deem normal, remaining authentic in those spaces and finding spaces where you can truly just be yourself. I think it's a big confidence builder. So that's it, Ewa. Thank you so much. Thank you again to Kantar for letting us host our event at your beautiful, shiny offices. Really appreciate that.
Ewa:
Absolute pleasure every time. Let's repeat next year.
Clare:
Can't wait. Thank you so much. Bye, everybody.
Ewa:
See you next time.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt.
If you enjoyed the episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology!
Well, that’s all for now! See you next time!
