‘Are you ready for the rise of the machine customers?’, with Sirte Pihlaja
Episode #706 show notes:
Clare:
We’re back with another episode of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast!
A series usually dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience and technology, this series we’re putting some of our awesome allies in the hot seat too!
No longer rehashing the same old conversations, in series 7, you can expect us to challenge the status quo on CX topics, provocative discourse, and naturally, plenty of healthy debate!
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to one seriously inspiring lady from Finland.
She’s the CEO of Shirute, the first customer experience agency in Finland, the leader of the global Customer Experience Professionals Association's Finland network and one of the CXPA's founding members.
With over 25 years of experience advising large organisations and brands in different industries, she’s passionately championing CX in the Nordics, the Caribbean, South-East Asia and beyond. Let me introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, Sirte Pihlaja.
Clare:
Hi, Sirte.
Sirte:
Hi, Clare. How are you?
Clare:
I'm very well. Welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast.
Sirte:
Thank you. Lovely to be here.
Clare:
And thank you to everybody who's listening or watching along wherever you are. So, we're going to drive straight into the podcast as we always do. So, Sirte, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you found your way into the Women in CX community and the kind of things you've been up to since you joined us.
Sirte:
Well, the first time I heard about it was when we were having these discussions with you on CX Care. So, sort of a small community way back when.
Clare:
With Ian Golding.
Sirte:
Yeah, I recorded a podcast episode with him recently, and we talked about that time during the pandemic when we were all united by Ian as self-employed CX consultants trying to navigate how to get through that difficult time. So, yeah, I remember meeting you there.
Sirte:
Yeah. So, I think that's when I heard about it for the first time. And when you were talking about, well, not struggles, but the challenges about getting it up and running, basically, and been following it ever since. And then, funnily enough, when I went to Barbados as my family moved over there a year and a half ago, or thereabouts, you told me about Sam, who's in Trinidad and Tobago, and we met with her, and she was very loud and was very much recommending Women in CX and joining. I had been, of course, pondering about it ever since the beginning, but always too busy to do anything about it before that. But yeah, then it felt like the right thing to do at that time to find more people. I've been always sort of a community builder and trying to be involved in different kinds of CX communities. So, I have a background as a co-founder for the CXPA, the Customer Experience Professionals Association, and bringing it to Finland back in the day, like 2013, we started our meetings and live events there.
Sirte:
And then through my career, I have been looking for more and more international networks and people who are doing these same things abroad. So, Women in CX was a natural kind of community for that because women rule, women rule.
Clare:
Of course, we do. And yeah, you've done a few things, haven't you? I know that you came and did a webinar for us recently.
Sirte:
Yes, I did. On the CXM benchmark. We did a webinar on trying to benchmark… benchmark is really a study and survey, a tool that we have created for CXPA in Finland back in the day when we started and wanted people to have an understanding of where they are at at the moment for their customer management efforts, and also to learn from each other. So that is something that we have been running now for ten years in Finland, and this is the third year that we're doing it internationally. So, we wanted to share that tool with everybody in this community as well, because it's really helpful to help people understand what others in the profession are doing at the moment.
Clare:
Yeah. So, you've already mentioned about ten things about your career journey, even in that first instance, but do you want to share a little bit more about your career and how you ended up where you are?
Sirte:
Sure. Sure. Well, I was always going to become a journalist, in fact, and my background is in journalism, and I used to work for the French Broadcasting Company (France Télévisions) and for a little while for the BBC as well, and Radio France Internationale (RFI), as I was doing studies in Paris, in Sorbonne University. And at the time when I was working for the Finnish broadcasting company, I had a very forward-looking, let's say boss, who asked me, “Hey, Sirte, you're into this computer stuff. Would you like to help us create this intranet for the Finnish broadcasting company?” We actually went ahead and developed that, and we were one of the first ones in, I don't know, the whole world, I guess, but at least in Finland to come up with internet and then internet services came shortly after. And then I got headhunted to Accenture, it was called Andersen Consulting at the time, but it changed names whilst I was there, which was something that was quite scary at the time, doing, if you remember, something called WAP Mobile services, which is very old mobile services at this moment, nobody really knows what they were, but at the time it was very new. And then again I got headhunted to another company called Visual Systems and I ran a design team for quite a few years, I think eight or nine years before joining Fjord Interactive.
Sirte:
And when then it was time for Fjord to be merged with Accenture, I thought maybe it’s time for me to fund my own company. So, in 2010, I created the first customer experience design agency called Shirute, which I'm still running to this date. And that's kind of my career, in short.
Clare:
Awesome. And there must have been some barriers that you overcame or challenges that you experienced on the way. What would you say is one of the main barriers or challenges you've overcome to become the woman you are today?
Sirte:
That's some question. I would say that when we first started in Finland, running customer experience-related activities, nobody knew what customer experience really was. And when I was asked to become a co-founder of the CXPA, I went to the meeting, the first meeting, and in the US, and we were all having this breakfast, breakfast at the table, and everybody from the US, they started saying that, how many people do you have in customer experience roles? And there was somebody who said 80 and the other one who said 200, and I don't know the numbers. And then it was my time, and I was like, I think there is one person in addition to me, to myself, who has on their business cards the words customer and experience, one after the other. So, it was really something quite new at the time. And that was why I specifically wanted to bring CXPA to Finland as well, to kind of lift the domain and the practices to a totally different level. So, for quite a few years, we had people who were very alone, and I think they still are in different various organisations working on customer experience. Nowadays, it's become mainstream, and people know what we're talking about when we're talking about customer experience and employee experience, for that matter.
Sirte:
But at that point, it was really something, let's say new. And, yeah, it wasn't exactly easy to talk about customer experience because I had to become this evangelist to even start talking about it to everybody else.
Clare:
And do you think CX evangelism is still effective in today's environment where businesses want a much harder edge to the commercial metrics?
Sirte:
I think it totally has space still in businesses and public organisations as well. Maybe evangelism.
Clare:
I mean, to be an evangelist as opposed to being a team or group of people or even an individual that helps a business to deliver results rather than evangelising CX.
Sirte:
Not sure if I understand your question there correctly, but I think that there are still very many organisations, at least in Finland, where people do need to have these ambassadors and spread the word within those organisations, because it should be everybody's role nowadays, and all the teams should be thinking about their customers and how customer experience can best be managed. But the thing is that companies don't yet necessarily have this common framework to talk about customer experience and the common terminology. So, they might be customer-centric as such, let's say, but they don't necessarily do things in a managed way. So that every time you are facing your customer, the customer would get the same level of service and get the CX delivered that you have been planning for. I would say that what has happened is that people very much started from Voice of Customer programs. And we were specifically talking about measuring customer experience. And nowadays it's more about putting that into practice. Of course, still, the Voice of Customer programs are very important and people have understood that.
Sirte:
It's more about the processes and the roles and the data that run through Voice of Customer programs and actually doing actions based on what you hear from your customers. But I would say that the main focus of customer experience management has shifted towards getting an organisational culture that supports this thinking and getting everybody on board with that.
Clare:
Interesting. I know listeners to the podcast will know that I disagree with quite a lot of that. But hey, this is your episode. So, thinking back to October 2023, you flew across to the UK to deliver a Lego series workshop play. Sorry, Lego Serious Play workshop as part of our conference. For anyone who doesn't know what Lego serious play is, please can you tell the audience a little bit more about it as a topic and also how it will be helpful to CX leaders?
Sirte:
Of course, Lego Serious Play is first of all, it's great fun and it unlocks the creativity inside of us for us to be able to better deliver customer experience design and thinking. It works as a catalyst for all those discussions that we are having within teams and organisations about…
Clare:
So, is it like a facilitated workshop using Lego? Or let's keep it really simple. What actually is Lego Serious Play?
Sirte:
Yeah, it's a facilitated workshop where the facilitator, who is a trained Lego Serious Play Facilitator, puts forward these challenges to people who are joining the workshop. And depending of course, on what the challenges are within the company that we have been planning to discuss in that workshop, the participants get to build their own models from Lego bricks. And then it's mostly about storytelling, about telling what your model is all about, where you're actually putting all of your thinking about this specific topic and you're explaining your thoughts and ideas about those. And then everybody around the table gets to explain their own models with their stories. And the idea is that everybody's in a safe space to share their thoughts. And we come up then afterwards with a common model where everybody has their view, point of view is expressed, and nobody has the right or wrong answers in the workshops. So, it's a medium that helps discussions take place. And also, the idea is that when you get into play, you get into this state of flow where you just give everything that you have in your mind about things.
Sirte:
It really is a facilitation methodology, but it's something on top of your normal facilitation and normal deliverables that you would anyhow be creating from projects as such. So, instead of having this post-it where you have to come up with one word to rule them all and explain everything that you wanted to say, instead you get to give more of yourself and more of your thinking to everybody else.
Clare:
Could you give an example of what a challenge might be and how it might be facilitated, like a real-life example, to help bring it to life?
Sirte:
Sure. The one that comes to my mind is actually about employee experience. What we did with a media company was that they had two different departments coming together and they wanted to discuss their expectations and how they wanted to get their data engineers to talk to each other about how they put these two departments together. So, some of the challenges were about these things. What expectations from your colleagues? What have you previously liked about the way of working in your previous organisation and things like that? And then when everybody gets to say their word about these things, then they come up with a common plan on how they want to move forward with things.
Clare:
Nice. And I suppose as an expert facilitator, what would you say the top five skills of a facilitator are in customer experience? How would you boil it down to, what are the most important things for our audience to know to be a great facilitator?
Sirte:
Well, I would say that, firstly, you have to have a lot of understanding of the background about the kind of situation that you're facilitating and really need to plan with your clients what the outcomes are that they want to get from this facilitation and this workshop so that you really deliver on the promise and the expectations. I'd say another thing I think is that you need to make it fun and engaging for everybody who's participating, so you don't have people who are leaning back. So therefore, I think Lego serious play is a very good methodology because we call them lean-forward meetings, or even people in general, many people, they stand in those meetings because they want to be the first ones to get their hands on Lego, and it becomes very much of energising and activating as such. Of course, you have to be able also to look very, ah, how do you say, make sure that everybody gets to have their say so that you need to be very balanced in that facilitation, in that sense that you get also the people who in general may be a little bit quieter and more reserved to tell their ideas, to get them to join as well and participate actively.
Clare:
And there's always that one person in the room isn't there who either wants to take centre stage or is always putting their hands up and taking over in workshop scenarios, isn't there? So how do you help, I suppose, minimise that person's involvement? What kind of tips could you share about how to facilitate difficult people in either meetings or workshops?
Sirte:
For sure, especially with Lego serious play, we don't have that as much because we give as much time to everybody to tell their stories. So, it's kind of invaded into the methodology that nobody gets in front of everybody else. The other thing is that if you have people from different levels of the organisation, it makes everything quite everybody on the same level, that there are no hierarchies as such. So, you don't need to kind of give more space to somebody who's, I don't know, a director of something, but you all get to have your say. So, I think the methodology helps a lot in that. Of course, it's a question of making sure how you involve everybody, how you make eye contact with people, how much space you give to those people. There is a limit where you need to say “Okay, let's move forward” and then get somebody else to speak.
Clare:
That's interesting. So just to summarise that, the way that you design the workshop is super important to avoid the complication of the most important person in the room being deferred to. So, like creating exercises where everybody gets the same amount of time to speak and ensuring that the time is adhered to. I know, like Olga Potaptseva, we did a leader’s group workshop together and she actually had a timer, and when the timer was done, then that was your time over. So, there are some tactical things, aren't there?
Sirte:
That's exactly what we have also in Lego serious play, that everybody has, say, two minutes to tell their story. So, when that time is up, then that's done. It's on to the next one.
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Clare:
Cool. Next question. Something else that I've been seeing you talk about actually quite a lot on LinkedIn recently is this thing called machine customers, which sounds very intriguing. And also, I've seen you starting to think about what the implications are going to be on the future of CX with the arrival of these machine customers. So, for the benefit of the audience who may have different levels of understanding of what a machine customer is, should we start there? Can you explain what is a machine customer?
Sirte:
Of course. So, machine customers are something that I would say there has been talk about machine customers also previously, but since last year, when ChatGPT came out, it became obvious that this is something that's going to be in our business much sooner than later. And really, Gartner says that we're talking about a trillion-dollar business. So, I looked that up. It's one with 13 zeros. So quite a big….
Clare:
A lot of zeros.
Sirte:
Yeah, a lot of zeros. But to put that into context, it's twice as big a thing as business goes as the introduction of e-commerce. So, if you think about that for a moment, it is something that we should all take very seriously. And at the moment, what I think is that everybody is really looking forward to using AI, artificial intelligence. We're all lazy. People are looking at how to utilise AI to do less work. How could we, I don't know, make offers so that we need to put as little time into it as possible? Whereas instead, you should take this, I don't know, 10% or how many per cent it is more efficient work time usage that you have into your customers, and thinking about how could you be doing more for them and how could you be doing the right things for them? Instead of thinking that, how do I make this as easy as possible for myself? So, I think as a CX professional, that we should be looking into that.
Sirte:
But coming back to your original question, what are machine customers? Sorry. They are small agents that are AI-based. So, for instance, for the last year, what I have been doing is that I've been learning Python coding and getting to the GitHub and other open source codes and installing these agents that can go out there on the web and do all of my bidding and shopping for me, basically. So what an agent could do is they could take a four-member family, see what their special dietary requirements are, and plan whatever food they want to have during a week, then go onto an online shop, make the order for all the ingredients that you need for these recipes, and then even have them delivered to your door, looking at your calendar, that, okay, you're certainly going to be there at that time when it's being delivered. So, putting all of these things together just by me telling them that I want this done, basically, or they could be sitting on a call where you have to otherwise be waiting for your customer service agent to come and help you out, or one very good example is what I would really love to do with the agents lately was when my credit card expired and I had the same credit card, and I had 40 different internet services where I needed to update the credit card details. So, if I instead could have just told my agent to go ahead and do it, I would have been happy to give it all the credentials that it needed for the different internet services, which of course, people will always say “Okay, then it's going to be like information security issue” and blah, blah, blah. But this is something that every single company will need to solve somehow.
Sirte:
So, I think that there will be a way when this will be possible quite shortly. Nowadays with GPTs that came out some time ago, then it's possible to create these agents totally using natural language. You don't need to be a programmer anymore. So, when sending out these machine customers to do your work is as easy as me telling you to kindly do something for me, I don't see a point why people wouldn't be using them. And again, coming back to the Gartner statistics, they say that in 2025, four out of ten people will have experimented with machine customers, and in 2027, half of us will be utilising them in our daily lives. So, it's probably going to happen even sooner than that. These predictions were from this spring, 2023.
Clare:
Wow.
Sirte:
I think it's going to be. Yeah…
Clare:
So just to play this back to you, what we're saying is that due to large language models like ChatGPT, the artificial intelligence required to be able to have conversations with humans or other chatbots is now coming to a place where there are businesses building assistant services. Is that correct?
Sirte:
Yeah, well, actually there are subscription services, a few of them already that names that we can check out do not pay, for instance, there is a service where you can have an agent go for you instead of you, to a telecom, for instance, and negotiate a new subscription for you, and they just do it.
Clare:
And that's a machine.
Sirte:
Doing that is a machine. Yeah. And that's where I come to my next point is that that's going to totally change the employee experience because up till now, we have all been thinking of ways to how do we make our customers feel as good or whatever the feeling has been that we have been striving towards as possible. Whereas now, if the customer is going to be a machine, all they are going to care about is efficiency, getting things easily and being able to deliver to their masters as fast as possible. So, there is no such need for empathy and all of that. And then that problem comes from the fact that, say customer, if you have a customer service representative who's talking to a machine, we are at the point where you don't necessarily even identify it as a machine if you're talking via voice, and you could be talking to this machine and not know that it's not a real person. Of course, there's always a customer behind them, but the actual interface that you're going to be talking with might very well be a machine.
Clare:
Yeah. Are there any more brand names you can mention? So, any more services that we should be watching, or we could maybe try ourselves?
Sirte:
I can get back to you on that. We can put them in the show notes (Check out these existing assistant services; Rabbit, hu.ma.ne, DoNotPay, Cognosys, Auto-GPT) later on. There are quite some already. But the problem is that this is so new that I think that people are not really thinking about how this is going to change the businesses as we know them and the processes. So, what we should be doing as customer experience professionals is trying to understand how this is going to change the customer journey. So, we need to design for machine customers. So, there will be a new kind of, almost as a discipline to design for machine customers. All these customer journeys, machine customer experiences, I think we should call them and think about, for instance, Voice of Customer… should you still be sending all of these VoC questionnaires to machines? Or if you do, then what should you be asking them? Is it more about efficiency or different things? Probably different things than from your human customers.
Clare:
But in your statistics, you quoted Gartner by 2025, saying that four out of ten people would have experimented with machine customers. But if there are no kind of like brands and services out there in the mainstream, how is that going to happen at that speed?
Sirte:
They are coming. You probably have been looking at how fast everything has, like, developers have been developing things even for ChatGPT since ChatGPT came out. Now that it is possible with natural language to create GPTs, which are pay agents, anybody and everybody can do that, and OpenAI is also going to open this store for GPT store. So basically, like the same thing as Apple's App Store where you can get any agent you like if you still feel not so confident about creating those agents yourself. So that is something that is going to happen.
Clare:
I didn't connect that together. So, you say an OpenAI is building a store where you can buy an agent that you can program to do what you want. I see. So that's where it's going to start.
Sirte:
A while back, they rolled out these GPTs where anybody can create their own GPT, which is an agent, and you can just give it a name and give it a prompt, but with natural language that, “Please do this for me”. So, the pace of development is so fast now that there's nothing to kind of hinder it from happening now.
Clare:
Yeah, I guess most people probably are thinking of experience of ChatGPT is within a platform where you can ask it to do things, but it can create either visual or written formats. How is it going to be able to reach out and sit on a phone call or, I don't know, be out there interfacing with a chatbot? How is that going to happen?
Sirte:
Well, technically I wouldn't be the real technical person to explain this, sorry about that. But we've had something for a long time already in ChatGPT called plugins. So, plugins were the first version, let's say, where service providers could provide the possibility for customers to, I don't know, book flights, or do things like that. And these integrations were also already there. But the idea was that it would always be based on the service provider whether they wanted to create this plugin and then offer this service, whereas this is going to be the other way around where customers are going to be creating themselves so they can then work on whatever they want to integrate on these GPTs.
Clare:
That's a really important point. Then this isn't going to be something that businesses can choose to plug into or not. It's going to happen from the consumer end.
Sirte:
Exactly.
Clare:
Will act and behave to all intents and purposes like a customer. So, I just want to think this through a little bit more around I get customers programming or asking/requesting the LLM agent to do something for them, like get me a doctor's appointment. There are things with Alexa voice that you can do today, aren't there, that can do things in your calendar? The voice assistants have kind of started doing some of these things like getting a hairdressing appointment, cancelling appointments. Those kinds of things already exist. Right? So that's us interfacing through voice with an assistant. I suppose today, it kind of happens the other way around, doesn't it? Where humans are interacting with robot agents, whether that be a chatbot or an IVR or something similar. I guess I'm intrigued by what you said about then imagining it being the other way around, the agent talking to a robot rather than the customer talking to a robot in a service interaction. How do you see that working?
Clare:
So, yeah, sorry, we just had to take a quick break there because Sirte’s Air Pods failed. So, I'm going to ask this question again. So, we already today have human-robot interaction with AI, right? So, at the consumer end, we have interaction with voice assistants who at the moment are able to do things like book appointments, cancel appointments, and order things through Amazon, for example, repeat orders. So, this kind of Internet of Things and voice assistant technology in the home kind of already exists, right? Or even “Siri, go and google this for me”. So, we've got a little bit of it happening today on the kind of customer business end. We've got customers interacting with robots in the form of AI as chatbots, or perhaps like the more advanced IVRs. What I can't get my head around is imagining this now being flipped on its head, where human agents in a contact centre are then having to interact with robots as the customer. And even though that happens today, the other way around, that just seems like a really alien concept, because I think if you think about complicated service interactions, eventually the human will give up, probably, won't they? They'll get so frustrated with the situation that they'll put down the phone, but the robot is not going to give up.
Clare:
They have infinite time, they don't have emotions, and they're not going to get angry. They'll keep going until they get what they want resolved. Right? In theory, I think you said, raised the question that there's this experience design element for technology around how would you service that differently. I'm assuming you'd want to funnel that for a chatbot to talk to a chatbot, then, wouldn't you? You want them to be interacting away and keep the human kind of reserved for where empathy is required and helping to resolve someone's query, where there's a lot of emotion involved, maybe. But also, I think the point you said about what's important to customers versus what's going to be important to robots, that's super interesting because actually, the outcome of the contact is going to be the most important thing, isn't it? Which it should be already, but we have made this very kind of complicated version of Voice of Customer and surveys that are more self-serving than they are actually in serving the customer. So, yeah, I just would love to hear you describe a little bit more about what you think that future looks like and what CX leaders should be thinking about now in order to ensure they're ready for the arrival of the machine customers.
Sirte:
Right. That is exactly what I'm kind of focusing on right now, is that boards and members of boards should be thinking about what currently are the things that could change if we had machine customers, what kind of new business opportunities we might have, and what are the things that might somehow get affected either very negatively or very positively from the fact that it's machine customers. Machines, like you said, they will try forever, for instance. In the same fashion, they will be actually quite reliable customers in the sense that they will never forget to reorder, for instance, something. So, there's always that. But it really requires a whole new thinking. How do we start experimenting with doing things for machine customers? What kind of roadmap should we do? And then start experimenting and basically killing those things that don't work and then move forward with the things that do work? And another thing is that you need to have somebody who's responsible for all of this. You have to have a CTO who's there to do all he or she can with their team to enable these services to be able to service machine customers.
Sirte:
And most importantly, I think it is about the CX professionals and practitioners understanding what are these customer journeys going to be like? What kind of changes will we need for our own internal processes? What kind of new training do we need to give to our people so that they understand what's happening here? And I'm kind of torn as a CX enthusiast in the sense that on one side, I'm very much supporting that “Okay, we need to think about customers feelings, and we need to deliver on the CX strategies that we create based on the feelings that we want to get our customers to think”, but at the same time, I see this technology that is coming, but I think that we should always keep in mind that there are things that machine customers can do by themselves, but there are also things where they will need to involve the end customers anyhow if things don't go exactly as planned or something like that. So, there's always these scenarios where the human customer will still be needed at one end of the journey, and then this kind of balance, if you like, between how do you service human customers and these machine customers? And that's a completely different skill set.
Clare:
So obviously machines don't experience things, do they? Not yet.
Sirte:
Not yet. At least not that we know of unless they become sentient. I don't know. Then maybe.
Clare:
God, that's a scary thing to think about. Well, I guess it's interesting. It's a potential impact of ChatGPT that could have a far-reaching impact, particularly on the contact centre industry. I think it's great that you've raised it. I hear that it's going to be published in CX5. Is that correct?
Sirte:
Customer Experience 5 (CX5)? Yes, that's correct.
Clare:
So, you'd be right about that. And I'm sure we'll be hearing more from you on places like LinkedIn. So, that's it for today, Sirte. Thank you so much. If you had one piece of advice or a takeaway to leave the audience with today, what would that be?
Sirte:
Go out there. Be bold, be creative. Don't let the machines rule this world. Not yet, anyway.
Clare:
Potentially scary future ahead, isn't it, when you think about the potential application of sentient artificial intelligence? So, thank you so much for joining us today, Sirte.
Sirte:
Thank you. It was a pleasure to be invited.
Clare:
You're welcome. And thank you so much to everybody who listened or watched along, wherever you are. Bye for now.
Sirte:
Bye bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt.
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