Smashing Silos: The Real Work Behind Joined-Up CX with Obi Santos
Episode #808 Show Notes:
Clare
We’re back with another episode of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast! A series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in customer experience and technology.
For Series 8, we’re raising the bar—pushing boundaries, sparking bold ideas, and challenging the CX status quo. Expect fresh perspectives, fearless discussions, and a celebration of women driving change in our industry.
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt, and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to a seriously inspiring lady from the UK about smashing silos in CX.
With over 15 years of experience in customer experience and insights, she’s passionate about amplifying the voice of the customer. Known for turning data and research into powerful, actionable insights, she helps businesses optimise operations, refine strategies, and elevate the customer journey. Her expertise lies in transforming customer feedback into decisions that make a real impact and foster long-term success.
Allow me to introduce you to today’s inspiring guest, Obi Santos!
Clare
Hi, Obi!
Obi
Hi Clare!
Clare
Welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast. It's absolutely fantastic to have you with us today.
Obi
Pleasure to be here, super excited.
Clare
Yay! And welcome to everybody who's listening or watching, wherever you are. So Obi, we're going to do it in traditional, Inspiring Women in CX style, and we're just going to jump straight in. Would you like to share with our listeners a little bit more about your career journey and how you ended up where you are today?
Obi
Yes. So I studied Psychology and Sociology at the London School of Economics. Great for many reasons, the degree was fantastic, but I also made great friends and enjoyed studying whilst I was there. So a pleasurable experience. However, it's quite a broad degree and a broad discipline. So after finishing that, I was a bit like, "Hmm, what do I want to do with my life? And then I decided to work for a beauty company.
I actually started as a customer service advisor, and it was only supposed to be temporary. I was like, "Oh, I'll just do this for a couple of months. Whilst I figure out what it is I really want to do, what I'm going to enjoy... you know, what my passion is, what I'm going to really enjoy investing my time in." And as I was doing that, I loved it.
And I loved it for many reasons because, naturally, with my psychology degree, I do have an interest in people and how they function, how their mind operates. And when you're doing that role, you are hearing people day in, day out. You're understanding their experience, understanding their pain points, understanding what delights them, understanding just how the customers tick. And I think from then on, I developed a real love for customer and a real passion for making their experiences better.
So in that beauty company, I worked my way up - ended up managing the team, doing all sorts of customer experience operational aspects. And then as my career developed, obviously I transitioned as well, and I've really gone, "Ok, what do I really love?" And funnily... so when I finished my degree, I actually did a course in market research. So I knew that research insights was also another area that I could explore. As my career transitioned, I've moved more into insights and that side of CX, and it's allowing me to marry my passion for understanding customers, my passion for psychology, and my passion for insights and bringing it all together. So I feel like I've really landed where I'm meant to be and sort of gone full circle, almost, but landed exactly where I'm meant to be. Now I'm working for Vivo Barefoot, and they are a natural health company. They do that through footwear. So from the feet upwards, you can really improve your health. But wellness is also such a passion of mine. So, outside, let's remove the scope of career and professionalism. Outside of that, what I do in my spare time, a lot of it's focused on wellness anyway. So I really feel like now I'm home. So I'm marrying my passions from a career perspective and my passions from a personal perspective. And I've really found a great role that allows me to improve the end-to-end experience for customers, and doing that through dissecting insights. It's fantastic. I've had a pleasurable 17 years in the customer experience space. And when I say that, I'm like, that's a long time. But it's been a good journey, and I've really, really enjoyed it.
Clare
That's so inspiring to hear, being able to tie all of those things up together in a gift with a little bow around it. It's so rare to be able to fuse all of your passions together, isn't it? And yeah, that's super inspiring. And it really resonates with me, actually, because I started on the front lines of customer service too, in hospitality and worked my way up to general manager in operations also. So very similar. And for me, it was the same thing. I just loved it - absolutely loved it. And my degree, my master's, was in Marketing. And I guess it is that kind of real world experience, isn't it, of them being able to see all of these theories that you learn actually playing out in reality and being able to, I guess, fundamentally make things better for people has been a red thread that's thrown all the way through my career, even obviously now with Women in CX.
So yeah, it really resonates with me. And the wellness side, yes, such an important part, I think, of our ability to be resilient and to continue despite the challenges that we have. If we're not looking after our wellbeing and our health, we'd have nothing, do we? So it's really awesome to hear that we have that shared passion, but I'm really excited for you that you're able to live that out in your career as well.
Obi
Precisely.
Clare
So today we're going to be talking about smashing silos and the real work behind joined-up CX. Let’s go into the deep end of this. Why do you think it's so hard to break down the silos in CX?
Obi
I think it is a challenge - for many reasons - to break down the silos. So first of all, I think you have different teams looking at different data sets. So they're all operating differently to start with. You could have…
Clare
Different priorities…
Obi
Yeah, different priorities…
Clare
Different KPIs.
Obi
…different KPIs, different data sets. Ultimately, they're all chasing the same thing, right? Because really, it is about the customer. That's what I fundamentally believe. I think it's about creating the right experiences for that customer. But we're all doing it, we're all pieces of the puzzle, and we're all separated, and somehow we need to get joined up together to really paint that beautiful picture.
I think a lot of the data sets we're looking at are very siloed. So you could have somebody in your digital team, say UX, who's looking at a product that's online, it's not converting very well. And they're saying, “Okay, actually, maybe it's the design of the website, it's the layout of the PDP that's causing the issue, and that's what we need to look into.” Yet you'll have somebody in customer services and your support centre saying, “Actually, customers are complaining, the description is missing key information.” And then you might have, you know, myself, who works in CX and Insights and looking more at survey data. You might have some data from there as well that's pointing to something else, but actually, how do we get all of that together?
We can really paint a picture of what the true issue is and create a shared understanding amongst all the teams that have a hand in building that experience. And I think the challenge relates to some aspects of culture within businesses because it depends on how you operate. If you want to overcome that challenge, you could get everyone together regularly. And that helps because then it's actually creating that shared understanding, and you can do it in a fun way.
Obi
Whether it's workshops or journey mapping sessions, but if you get the right stakeholders from various teams together and you're saying, "Look, this is the problem. What's your view of that problem? What are the metrics that you've been looking at? How have you, how are you trying to solve that problem?" And can we all get on the same page about the true issue and how we fix it? I think that's so, so important.
So that's one aspect. I also feel that our data is siloed as well. We don't necessarily always help ourselves in CX. We're looking at one source of data. Let's say customer service tickets, for example. And we might take that as gospel to say, "Well, nobody's complaining about X, right? Or nobody's complaining about the website at the moment. I think it really must be functioning well." But then, if you look at another data source, and let's say you're looking at your post-purchase survey data that's coming in, customers may be writing there, "Oh, actually there was an issue when I was trying to purchase something. I found that this wasn't working on the website," for example. Those two pictures are completely different. Yet, if we only look at one silo data source, we're thinking there's no problem. If we look at another source…there is a problem.
And actually…what I've really worked on in the last couple of years - and I'm very passionate about - is how do we connect everything? How do we make sure our people are connected, but also our data sources are connected and that we have this holistic view of what's going on? So we really know what to prioritise. We really know how we work together as a team better because we're focusing on the key areas that need fixing. I'm really passionate about doing that and not just looking at something in isolation, not working in isolation, but really working as a team…across people and data does help.
Clare
Yeah, so really it's about getting the data and the teams to talk to one another about clarifying beyond any doubt what the real issue for the customer is and then collaborating together to find and solve the root cause of that, so that we can deliver a better outcome ultimately. Yeah, that's super clear.
Obi
I think it's definitely about that. I think this also translates to what do you think CX is? We could have a debate about that, but it also translates into that because I think when you have a shared understanding of what CX is in your business, that can then lead people to work together in the right way and the right capacity because they all understand what it is we're coming together to do and why we're doing it and the importance of doing that.
People have various different interpretations of CX, as I'm sure you well know, Clare. And I think…just understanding the interpretation - and I'm happy to share my ones. CX is a mindset. It really is. I think customer experience is a mindset. I don't think it's a function. I don't think it's a reporting department. And I don't think it's about just NPS solely. I really do think it's about a mindset. It's not a metric.
Clare
Yeah, it's not a metric.
Obi
It really is a mindset, and it's how you cultivate that mindset to create a shared understanding of the customer.
Clare
100% agree. Definitely getting that clear upfront at the strategic level is critical if you want to join things up further down the line. But I guess quite often, as CX professionals or leaders or managers or people working in that space, quite often it ends up being more of a ground-up swell, doesn't it, of being able to even identify that we need to do that. So, anyone who's listening, don't be afraid if you've not managed to do that yet, but yeah, see if you can get it on your roadmap for your strategy and get the senior team joined up on what it means.
Obi
And as somebody who likes optimising, I like consistently improving, whether that's myself and that's my wellness journey, or whether that's work and that's the experiences customers are having, I'm constantly improving. I understand that the challenge is never fully overcome. And if it is, are you? No, and also if it is, that would be boring. If it were ever finished, you'd have nothing to do, and you wouldn't be stimulated enough. So I like the fact that the challenge is always there and there are always different challenges.
Clare
It's never finished.
Obi
But with that thought of always optimising, don't be worried if you're not there yet. Everyone's on a journey, and we get there when we get there. And then when you've got there, there'll always be something else to overcome. But that's what keeps everything enjoyable in my eyes.
Clare
Yeah, and evolution as opposed to revolution, quite often you'll experience less resistance if you allow things to unfold more organically and let one step lead you to the next, rather than thinking, "Hey, I've got the perfect strategy and I've got to work through all of these points and everybody's just going to jump on board and invest in it and get buy into what I'm proposing." But actually, the reality of letting it be that ground-up swell that comes from the people themselves by them engaging and getting involved in this is often a more sustainable way to do it.
So from your experience, what's helped shift things from a disjointed CX effort to something that really works across the board? And what is it that tends to trip teams up along the way?
Obi
From my experience, I think it's about cross-functional teams getting together and being purposeful about it. So whether that's a weekly meeting and you're pulling in different stakeholders, or whether that's a monthly meeting, obviously, everyone's capacity differs. But I think it's really about that cross-functional working and making sure that different teams are represented. But then, even in that one meeting, it is not going to solve everything. And the CX department can't be everywhere and anywhere in terms of all-important meetings where we're talking about what to prioritise, how to think about the customer. So then it becomes a "How do we set ourselves up for success?" and how do we ensure, perhaps, there are representatives? Within different teams, you have a CX representative, because really, if CX is a mindset, anyone can adopt it.
I know there are the fundamentals of the day-to-day that need taking care of, but actually, everyone in the business can adopt that mindset. And if everyone's adopted it, you could have CX champions within teams. And actually, that means then when any conversations are going on within that team that you're not privy to, they're already championing for the customer, and they're talking about, "Oh, have we thought this from the customer's perspective? Have we questioned if we have any insights on this?" That would help us make a more informed decision that would resonate better with our customers. So they're always thinking customer, customer, customer. And that can only be done if you have those champions within different teams. And again, I guess it points to not having CX siloed, not having CX as just one function or one department that looks after it solely. That's what I'd say.
Clare
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. My issue with CX as a mindset in isolation - not saying that you said that at all - is it can quite often turn into platitudes. So things like "We put the customer at the heart of everything we do", "Where customer is King", that kind of language, it might be written on a wall somewhere. But for me, I think you've got to harness the momentum and somehow systematise it. So how do you build this mindset into actual systems and processes that mean that the culture can change if it needs to, or be maintained if it's been reset? I think traditional CX thinking tends to really gravitate towards a shared set of KPIs, doesn't it? Like things that are easy to manage, but the reality of humans is that it doesn't work the same way. You might have a shared set of KPIs, but what you said right at the start, everybody's looking at different data, everyone's driving their own agendas. It's easy to lose that cohesion.
I really love the example with Amazon where they talk about customer obsession, but it's actually baked into their processes. So if they're pitching a project, they've got to have done that thinking around what's in this for the customer, as well as the commercial stuff. They have to have proven where the value is for the people that they serve. And no idea is going to get through if that thinking hasn't been done, if that insight isn't there, if that data hasn't been drawn together to say what the problem is and what the root cause is. I really love the idea of champions as well, because you can't engage absolutely everybody to the same degree. But if you can create a smaller group that takes accountability or responsibility, or even just like passionate enthusiasm for driving that within their own teams or departments.
For me, I think…how do systems and processes help to drive that culture? But also, I think there's another point you touched on, which was that it's kind of like the governance, isn't it? And I'm not a fan of bureaucracy, but you do need the leadership team at least to be part of this and them to be joined up around the C-suite table about what customer experience, the objectives that we're trying to drive, driving that mindset, if that's the word we want to use, or that culture around customer orientation. So yeah, I think it's super interesting. And different companies and different industries and in different B2B versus B2C, healthcare versus retail, it is always going to be different, isn't it? How that business brings that to life.
I think CX needs to get away from this kind of one-size-fits-all approach. There's a framework that's going to work for everybody. That's part of the job, isn't it? It is to figure out what we need to do for our business in this situation, in this climate, in this environment, with our politics that exist, to be able to bring that together. So what's one change you think could make the biggest difference in helping organisations to work together better and deliver real impact?
Obi
I think it's the onboarding. And if you start from when you've got new members working for you, new employees working for you, how are you educating them on - and to your point about systems processes and embedding that - how are you educating them on, “Ok, this is what we view…” And there are differing opinions of what customer experience is. So again, what does your business view customer experience to be?
Clare
Yeah.
Obi
Because we view it like this, this is the input we need from you. So what's really great at Vivo is we take a very feedback-before-action approach. So what that means is before any changes are made, everyone's asking the right question: what impact will this have on the customer? Whether that's our digital team, whether that's our operational sort of fulfilment team, whether that's our customer service team wanting to make…
Clare
Yeah. Nice.
Obi
…a change, any changes that have been made, we ask what impact will this have on the customer? And that's a way of working. That's not necessarily a mindset. Yes, it's driven by the fact that we want to put the customer at the centre of everything, but actually it's just a way of working. It's a way of reaching out to the right people and saying, "Do you have any insights on this? Do you have any data? Do you know what impact you think this will have on the customer if we make X change?"
And I think we're so good at doing that at Vivo, and actually, that speaks volumes to the success that we have and why if we create certain projects that deliver the results we're expecting. So feedback before action, but that has to be embedded in the onboarding. When you're bringing people on board, just letting them know ways of working. This is how we like to work. And it's why it's important and what success has been delivered because of that way of working.
Clare
Yeah.
Obi
I think it is crucial.
Clare
Yeah, that's a perfect example of systemisation of a mindset for sure. And you could probably take it further…like from recruitment, you know, getting people that have that mindset to start with, because we're not going to be very fruitful if we recruit people who don't think like that in the first place. Like you said, within onboarding job descriptions, even, and setting out a set of behaviours within the job description, of which that feedback-before-action mindset, way of working is explicit within that. That ongoing performance evaluation, rewarding and recognising those behaviours that are desirable in terms of being joined up and collaborative and not…I'd say penalising is probably not the right word, but you're providing coaching and - I don't know what the opposite of reward and recognition is.
If the wrong behaviours are being displayed, like performance recognition in terms of reward, probably as well, measurements around not just the outcome of a customer experience, but also the input to that. I think particularly with customer service interactions, how do we support colleagues to be on the job, living that mindset on a day-to-day basis? Because the most important thing is that customers feel it, right? And there's nothing worse. I know, for me as a customer, getting stuck in a silo where the customer journey is broken down in a handoff between two teams, you just want to get something done, and it's almost impossible to make it happen. But yeah, I think that's a really good example of systematisation and the people aspects of systemising costs. I'm saying a word that doesn't even exist. I'm doing a Donald Trump, aren’t I? Bigly. Systematising something that's a vision and a way. into a way of working into something that is measurable and quantifiable.
So, thinking a bit more about your story then, is there any particular barrier or challenge you've had to overcome to be the woman that you are today?
Obi
Yes, there have been many challenges. But one that springs to mind is, I was very lucky when I started out working. I had a great boss who was a mentor and an ally. I didn't have to seek this out. This was gifted to me. And by gifted, I mean, at the time I remember, and I still recall this very clearly, he said, "Look, to be honest, I don't know much about customer experience." He was the chief finance officer. So he was like, "I don't know much about customer experience. However, if you need anything, come to me.” And true to his word, anytime I needed anything, I could come to him. And the importance of mentorship and allyship as you're working from a professional perspective…I think the challenges I've had is where I've had that gifted to me at the early stages of my career. I was a bit spoiled, Clare. And then I'm like, “Oh, I need to now go out and seek that.”
Clare
When it's absent, yeah.
Obi
I need to be intentional. I need to put effort into cultivating those relationships because not every business has a structured program. Some do. And it's easy if they've got a structured mentorship program. That means you can apply for something, you can get a mentor, and you can work together, and there's some sort of cadence. But sometimes you do need to learn, okay, I need to do that myself. And I think the challenge is - and depending on organisations that you've worked in, I've worked in some that have perhaps felt a bit like a boys' club - and it's like, “OK, how do you find the right mentor? How do you build that relationship? How do you find your allies?” But the importance of it honestly can't be underestimated for career progression, and just for the enjoyment of your work. Just getting advice from somebody who's potentially overcome some of the challenges that you're going to encounter, and they can really support you. But yeah, you need to be intentional about it. And I've learned that, and I'm still [seeking] even to this day. Even though I've got to a certain level, if you like, in my career, I'm still seeking, okay, who can be a mentor? Who can be an ally? Who can really support me? Who can get me to the next level? I'm very ambitious, so who can get me to the next level that I want to get to? And I'm constantly thinking about that, but you have to give thought to it.
Clare
Yeah, and like you say, take action. If it isn't a structured program that gifts it to you, and I think definitely as women, we have to create that for ourselves. I think mentorship and allyship, absolutely. And for me, I would again take that a step further and say sponsorship. Somebody senior who's going to talk about you and your work when you're not in the room, who's going to open up those doors, who's going to go into battle…
Obi
Yes.
Clare
…particularly if you're working in the CX space, the sponsorship of somebody who's sitting at that table, because you can't influence everybody all of the time. You need somebody who, when you go to the board and you present something, you've got your ally there - sorry, advocate there - speaking on your behalf, supporting you, positioning why this is important. And I think community is great, isn't it, with the mentorship, the peer-to-peer support element, being able to reach out to other women who maybe have gone through something that you're trying to figure out, and they can just share their story with you or ask for advice from. I think sometimes, actually, diverse organisations and how they've handled things differently can be inspiring. Yeah, I just wondered, kind of second-to-last question, how has being part of a community impacted your personal or professional journey or both?
Obi
From a professional perspective, obviously, Women in CX, I mean, great bunch of women getting together, and it's people that really understand the challenges, right? So if you're part of a community that, you know, from a professional perspective, that's in your discipline, a lot of people would have gone through what you've gone through, and they will fully understand the challenges, and you can come together, get advice, but also have a bit of fun as well.
Clare
Yeah.
Obi
And that's so important. I think the older I get, the more I realise life really is about balance. And it's great that we're passionate about our work. It's great we're ambitious women, but you also need to have that fun element to it. That's what makes it all worthwhile as well. And the relationships that you build via community as well, super important.
But women inspiring other women, or if it's other communities I'm part of as well, it's just seeing someone that's perhaps done what you've done or been where you want to get to and just being able to get that advice from them is super important as well and feeling that they really understand you is definitely something I would…and you know, if I can look back on my career, again something that I would say at a younger age I wish I'd been more active in pursuing that community element.
Clare
You got it.
Obi
From a personal perspective. I said earlier, when I went to uni, I had an amazing time, and actually, I've got a lot of friends still, a great group of women friends still from uni.
Clare
Yeah, me too.
Obi
And they are honestly some of the most inspiring women. Inspirational in the sense that they're all smashing it in their careers. And so that also helps, and we're like-minded like that, but also they really hold me accountable. So if I make some… set some goals, it's like, “Ok, great, how are you working on this? Are you achieving that?” They are also people who are down-to-earth, I can have a laugh with, and I can talk to. And I think that aspect, again, you really need it. They help put things in perspective as well. I think that's super important to have community via friends or community via networking. You've got to have different elements that make up your community bubble. I think that's important.
Clare
Yeah, it's like another little gift wrapped up with a bow, then your friendship group being your community as well.
Obi
It is. And sometimes we don't take time to really - it's quite nice that we're having this conversation because as I take time to sort of step aside and really reflect. And I'm like, actually, there are so many things that have been gifted to me, which is great. And there are so many things I've worked for as well, which is great. And it's really just being proud of those achievements and being proud of the communities you're part of, the friendships that I've cultivated along the way, as well as being in a career that I absolutely love.
Clare
Yeah! And now as a senior woman, I guess you're becoming the person that others earlier on in their career now go to for that advice and that guidance. Yeah, I think that's one good thing about getting older. You get to start feeling that kind of full circle moment of people experiencing the inevitable challenges of CX, but also being a woman in business. And it's like, that old chestnut, I know I can help you.
Obi
It is. And being able to give back.
Clare
Yeah, being able to give back exactly. Precisely.
So bringing this to a close now, Obi, it's been amazing. What would your top takeaway from this conversation be, or your one piece of advice you'd like to leave the podcast listeners with?
Obi
Find a way to bring people together and find a fun way of doing that, because siloed people, siloed data, does not work. You won't be able to achieve your goals. So, find a way to bring your teams together, have a shared understanding of what CX means for your business, a shared understanding of how you'd like to work, and then have fun with it as well, would be my takeaway. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, and challenges will exist, but how do we have fun despite those challenges and keep optimising?
Clare
Love that! So how can our listeners find you or connect with you?
Obi
I'm on LinkedIn and so feel free to connect with me there. I may not be the fastest at replying, but I will get back to you. But yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn.
Clare
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and your experience with us today, Obi.
Obi
No, my pleasure. Honestly, Clare, it's been great chatting to you. And I'm hoping that the audience has found one or two valuable nuggets in this conversation. And if they have any questions, like I said, they can reach out.
Clare
Love it! So thank you, everybody, for listening and watching. We'll see you all next time. Bye for now.
Obi
Bye!
Clare
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology! Well, that’s all for now! See you again next time.
