Clare Muscutt talks with Claire Durrant about UX, CX, Service Design & freelance digital nomad-ing.
Episode #201 Show Notes.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Hey, Claire.
Claire Durrant:
Hi, Clare.
Clare Muscutt – host:
How are you doing, today?
Claire Durrant:
I am good. How are you?
Clare Muscutt – host:
Fantastic, thank you. Welcome to the Women in CX podcast.
Claire Durrant:
Thank you very much for having me.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Welcome to all the listeners at home, too.
Claire, I think it’s a really interesting time at the moment for women in working in CX everywhere, in that perhaps we’re considering career changes, or our jobs are at risk, and we’re thinking about how to branch out going forward. Those of us that have our own businesses in customer experience are seeing things really drying up. I thought for today’s conversation, it could be really great to understand a bit more about you, what it’s like to be a freelancer, what it’s like to work as a digital nomad, just to help the audience understand a bit more about what’s out there in the design discipline. How does that sound?
Claire Durrant:
Sounds great, yeah. For sure.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Awesome. Let’s begin at the beginning: how did you become a freelancer?
Claire Durrant:
My route into design and freelancing and everything, really, was not particularly traditional. I don’t have a degree, which is a requirement on every single job application you will see, but luckily experience can replace that.
I was working for Bupa, a private medical company, coming up to 10 years ago now, and I was a training consultant there. Actually, training and design have so many crossovers, so firstly I’d say if anyone has a background in training and educating, helping people to understand things is essentially what we do.
Anyway, back to my journey: while I was there, they had this incentive competition where if you came up with a really good idea, you could get a nice little plaque and maybe a bit of money and, ‘Great. Well done. You had a good idea.’ Mine was for an app, and the app was basically to help people understand what they were covered for because private medical insurance is complicated. When I first put the idea forward, they went, ‘Well, we’ve never done apps. We don’t know what to do with this. So, thanks very much, but please go away.’ I wasn’t particularly happy with that, so I harassed people around the business, put together a business case, and went back to them and said, ‘Right, if you do this, here’s potentially how much money you could save from calls coming in. Here’s all the different reasons why this is a good idea.’ Luckily, they went, ‘Oh, well, yes. Maybe we should go ahead and do this. Would you like to come help us work on it?’ And I said, ‘Yes, please.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
To work on your own idea…
Claire Durrant:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s so kind of them.
Claire Durrant:
It was great. Like, ‘Oh, you’re not just going to take this away from me and dump it on someone else. That is kind.’
So, I was bright-faced up in head office, very exciting, and Matt Watkinson – who I know that you know – he was the lead on the suite of apps that we were working on. I was basically put on that as a junior UX designer/business analyst/dogsbody/meeting organiser person; basically, anything people didn’t really want to do. It was actually really helpful because the work that Matt got me to do – I was editing wireframes, I was getting involved in the design, not doing the complex stuff, but getting used to how it all worked.
Not too long after that, a few months after we had done the apps and delivered those, Matt had already left – he’d gone to Vodafone to work on a new project – and I got a call from him. I remember being on the bus, picking up the phone, and he was like, ‘Right, you are going to quit your job. You are going to start a business, go freelance, and you’re going to come work with me at Vodafone as my junior,’ and I went, ‘Okay.’
It was remarkably easy, actually. Creating your own business, just the act of creating the business, is extremely straightforward in the UK. Coming up with the name – potentially the difficult bit – I was really boring, I just put my own name on it. I’m saving the exciting name for when I potentially open an agency one day. I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
The rest is history, almost. After doing that contract, I did go and do some more permy work for about a year, just because in permanent positions, there is a lot more opportunity to upskill yourself; they invest a bit more time and effort into making sure that you’re improving and growing, where, as a contractor, your role is really to be there to produce the work and they’re relying on you having the expertise, you do the project, and then you go somewhere else.
So, I did stop off and be a permy for a year, but since then, I have been pretty much nonstop in contract to contract to contract. That’s the freelancing side of things. Being a freelancer, people do ask me why I wouldn’t want to go permy. Recruiters on LinkedIn love to send me permy positions. But the thing for me is just the variety of work that you get to have because you’re flitting from place to place. Also, I do UX design, CX design, and service design, so the work varies itself.
Also, the industries that you’re going to: I’ve worked with Pottermore, doing Harry Potter universe stuff; I’ve worked with companies making refrigerators and white goods; government; everything, any kind of variety you could think of is out there to work on. You just find yourself in all of these fascinating different worlds, finding out all the secrets – they’re not really secrets, but just things that you never even would have considered about how these things work. It’s so interesting.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I suppose because you’re not learning how to do a job, are you? You’re crafting and honing your skills through application at lots of different places.
Claire Durrant:
Yeah.
Clare Muscutt – host:
For me, I think, one of the benefits of the freelance and contracting side is getting to really accelerate your experience. You can get a lot more experience in contracting in a shorter amount of time than you can in a permanent role.
Just picking up on something that you said there: you said that you’re a CX designer, a service designer, and a UX designer. Now, I just love having CX geeky conversations, anyway, as a woman who would call herself a CX designer or perhaps a service designer, but not a UX designer. For the audience, it might be good to just understand a bit more about the similarities and differences. It was great to hear you came from a people-orientated background, in training, helping people to understand how to do things. I thought it was a really great explanation about usability, which is a cornerstone of what we end up doing in the design space. You said that you started doing wireframe editing when you were working with Matt initially on the Bupa project.
Claire Durrant:
Mm.
Clare Muscutt – host:
How did you make the steps into CX, UX, and service design? How would you articulate, even, what the similarities and differences are?
Claire Durrant:
It’s a fascinating one, and especially in the design side of our industry, there are so many blurred lines between job titles. I think, for some people, this might cause a bit of a hassle because if you’ve put yourself in a box of saying, ‘I only do CX,’ then potentially, you’re going to look at UX or service design roles and are going to be really put off by those titles. But it’s very much doing similar things.
The way I see it is user experience design is there’s a website or an app or a piece of software, and your job is to understand people, understand how they think, how they work, and design something that works best for that, but that’s confined to the website, the app, the piece of software. Then, CX is a little bit zoomed out – the way I see it is a zoom – you zoom out a little bit, and you’ve got CX. Customer experience is all the interactions that someone is having with the brand. It encompasses the UX, but you might not be as involved in the nitty-gritty of, ‘I’m going to choose which button goes where,’ you might be more involved in saying, ‘Well, the website just needs to be able to do these things,’ and then a UX designer will take that from you and design the interactions. Then, service design, I see that, again, as just zooming out a little bit more. It’s very close to CX, but it also includes all of the behind-the-scenes stuff that’s happening within the organisation. So, you’re designing, ‘How is the call centre going to work? How is the internal reporting going to work?’ Really going, ‘How do we make this entire service really joined up so that people aren’t doing things in siloes, and it all works towards the common goal?’
There are probably people who are listening to this who are going to disagree with some of my definitions…
Clare Muscutt – host:
That’s okay.
Claire Durrant:
… and I think that entirely proves my point, though, that every time you see a job advert for one of these, it’s slightly different and includes different things from different ones.
The skills are so transferable. Obviously, if you’re doing UX, you need to understand a bit about using prototyping software or using wireframing software, but if you take Sketch, for example, a very common tool used in UX, even just on their website, they have so many tutorials to learn how to use this stuff. I think most people could pick that up in a couple of days.
If you see yourself as a CX person, and you’re interested in getting more involved in the UX and the nitty-gritty, I don’t think you should ever be put off by that. Just take the plunge. Have a go at it. The skills are so transferable in that you are understanding people, you are finding out where the problems are, and you are fixing those problems for them. It’s as simple as that, really. Massively oversimplifying…
Clare Muscutt – host:
No…
Claire Durrant:
… our jobs.
Clare Muscutt – host:
… no, I loved it. I loved it.
I’ve got a few more questions and a couple of reflections. I really like the way you said it’s like zooming out. There are some pictures around – like Venn diagrams – UX as a full circle, CX as a bigger one, service design as a larger one. For me, service design enables you to think bigger in terms of the proposition, for example, whereas the customer experience space tends to feel like it’s already been agreed, that that’s not up for grabs, any more; it’s how do you make what you’ve been given work as well as possible? Then, user experience is, as you said, the digital elements of that.
I agree with you about the skills being really transferable but service design having the greater scope: the more breadth of experience you’ve had of understanding business is really important, so being able to make the transition from CX to service design requires a bigger leap in terms of business understanding because it’s so many different facets.
But then, the user experience, as you said, is zoomed right in. If you looked at the tools and the skills that we might use in service design in discovery, in research – we’re very sick of that. Whereas, in service design, we might be talking about a much bigger topic, in CX, we might be talking about more specific things – user research, we’re getting to that level of granularity where we really need to understand how things work. For me, I think, user experience – if journey mapping that you did in service design is high-level, you zoom in on CX, and you zoom in again on UX, but UX might have a different name for journey mapping, for example. Or a service blueprint at a service design level versus a CX level. I love geeking out about this stuff.
Claire Durrant:
It’s so interesting. One thing that I would add – just your point about the business understanding – the best user experience designers that I know and the best CX designers I know are the people who have the best understanding of how the business works…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Agreed.
Claire Durrant:
… as a whole entity. Even though you’re potentially just focusing on one app for this company, if you can understand that bigger picture and don’t be afraid to ask the questions of the organisation and understand where it’s going to fit in, then that thing that you create is going to be so much more useful. Again, it’s overlapping, but with a focus on different things, definitely.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I agree. You also gave me an idea, which is something perhaps we could work on together, of creating a mini-module for the Women in CX community to help with some of those transitions into using things like Sketch or Balsamiq or some of the applications that we’d be needing to use as a UX designer. If that’s the only gap you’ve got that means you can’t go for a job in UX, how can we help to fill that with some support, training, or at least where to go to get it? Because I would not call myself a UX designer, but I could probably do it if I was able to use the technology that meant I could create the wireframe because I use them anyway at a CX level. We’re still working with them – as you said in your really great description – just at the next level up. You’re just learning how to zoom to the next level down. I think we have to be realistic: the skills that are required for the future have to be digital, right?
Claire Durrant:
Yeah, it’s looking that way.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. So, if you haven’t made that step into the next level down of detail, you might be limiting yourself somewhat in terms of the skills that are going to be in demand in the next wave, especially as what’s probably going to happen for the next few years is digital solutions being the most in demand part of customer experience.
Moving on from the freelance part and what you do in UX, CX, and service design, I wanted to talk about the digital nomad bit…
Claire Durrant:
Always.
Clare Muscutt – host:
We could both get very excited about this. For anyone who’s been listening to the podcast for a while, you’ll have heard my stories of spending two-and-a-half years living and working anywhere in the world, initially as a freelancer like Claire, and then starting my own CX design agency, but managing to do all that whilst working by a beach or a palm tree or a pool.
I know for a lot of women listening along now, they’d love to hear a little bit more about that digital nomad lifestyle, although we can’t do it at the moment, which is very frustrating – when the world eventually does recover and we have a vaccine, it’s going to be possible again.
I thought it’d be great to ask just a little more about your experience of becoming this digital nomad. So, how do you balance work and life on the road?
Claire Durrant:
In terms of how I got into it in the first instance, I was going through a not-particularly-wonderful time: on top of various other things, I had been dumped. So, I was feeling a little down…
Claire Durrant:
Claire, honestly, the most pivotal moments in my career revolve around someone dumping me, and me going and doing something amazing. We definitely have the power of turning that into the positive. Carry on with your story.
Claire Durrant:
Definitely, but you don’t have to wait to be dumped…
Clare Muscutt – host:
No.
Claire Durrant:
… before you can. So, I was working in London and I just didn’t really want to be here at the time; I wanted to just go somewhere else. I had a good friend who lived in Saigon in Vietnam, so I thought, ‘You know what? Fuck it. I’m going to go and be there for a month and see what happens.’ Saigon is not hugely expensive to live in, so a month is not totally unfeasible.
Just before I went to fly out – literally a few days before – I had a client who I’d previously worked with, based in the south of France, who was asking if I could do some more work for them. I kind of said, ‘Well, is it okay if I do it from Vietnam and not from London? Which doesn’t really make much difference to you because I’m still not in the south of France. Is it okay if I just do two or three days a week rather than doing it full-time?’
This worked well for the project, and what really helped is we already had an element of trust there. She knew that I was going to produce work that she was happy with, and also, that I could be flexible, as I didn’t have any concrete plans of what I was doing. We started that, and three-and-a-half years later, I have not been back to an office.
I’ve obviously worked with a few different clients in that time, and a lot of clients are – well, even before the pandemic – were getting to be a lot more open to the idea of remote work because especially in our industry – even if everyone has to go into the office, you’ll probably see everyone with their headphones in talking to each other on Slack anyway, so it makes no difference. It is nice to have face-time, sometimes, but you can do that with calling people and using Zoom; we have various tools that emulate that quite well.
But back to the digital nomadding. By being able to have those contracts, I have probably now seen most of Asia, which is amazing, west coast of America, Canada. There are some challenges when it comes to being a digital nomad: sometimes, the Wi-Fi or the electricity or whatever is just not your friend. Things like Airbnb help with planning ahead, but sometimes, you have to be prepared to set up shop in a Starbucks. Starbucks is your friend, as much as we love to hate them.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I know I’ve told you this before, but just for the listeners: in my digital nomad journeys, that’s where I spent so much of my time, I actually started collecting Starbucks mugs from different countries (instead of fridge magnets) because I spent so much time working there because of the Wi-Fi and the aircon.
Claire Durrant:
Yep, a chair, a table, Wi-Fi, aircon, plugs, socket; you can’t do better than that, really. It’s ideal.
I suppose the way that I’ve generally worked while I’ve been travelling is I’ll do two or three days of intensive, ‘Get shit done,’ and then, ‘Right, now I’m going to go sightseeing.’ You plan to be in a place twice as long as you would have if you were just on holiday. That way, it’s half the time getting the work done; half the time, going and having fun.
I, same as you, went alone and just went off into the world. Sometimes, you’re like, ‘Oh, I wish some other people were here,’ but I’ve had friends fly out to meet me in Japan, in Thailand. We’ve had a week or two break and had loads of fun, then, they leave, and I get back to work.
But yeah, working next to a pool definitely takes the edge off having to get stuff done when you’re in such a lovely environment.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Just thinking about Vietnam, the first thing that appears in my mind is Bún chả in Hanoi. The food that I got to experience on all of my travels is definitely…
Claire Durrant:
So good. For that alone, just worth it.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Yeah. The solo adventure was part of my growth as a woman, as well. Obviously, ‘She loves adventure’ is my mantra. Not being able to do that at the moment is super frustrating.
Reflecting on what you said there, because of the pandemic and the shift in the way that we are now able to work with people working from home, with the technology – that was probably on someone’s digital roadmap somewhere – that enabled us to do this kind of thing, working with clients in this way will continue to become more acceptable. Digital and design were already starting to work that way: we’d have our meetings on Slack, we’d be using project management software online. It’s going to get easier.
The question I was going to ask was specifically, one of the hardest things to do in CX remotely is workshops. How do you get around that? So, being a digital nomad, running workshops, or even now during lockdown, how are you making sure the experience for your clients and participants is as good as in real life?
Claire Durrant:
Actually, even the other day I was running a workshop with about 25 people in it over the course of a couple of hours.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Wow.
Claire Durrant:
It’s never going to be the same as being in a room with people and everyone’s got a pad of Post-its, and you’re all sticking Post-its all over the walls. We love our Post-its. I’ve got my pads just out of reach, which is very distressing for me.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Look at the Post-its on my wall.
Claire Durrant:
Oh, wow!
So, yeah, it’s never going to be the same as that, but there’s so much that you can do. You can almost CX design your own workflows in the way that you’re doing this. It’s setting expectations, making sure people know what’s expected of them upfront so that maybe they can have a think about in advance. Where you might have say a day-long workshop with people, we know that over Zoom, it’s more tiring because you feel like you’re in the spotlight the whole time, so just cut those down: make it a couple of hours maximum; make sure there’s time for breaks in there when people need them.
There are lots of tools out there like Miro and MURAL, those are both freeform digital Post-it-type tools, and they have loads of different set-ups: you can make different kinds of agile-related meetings or design-related meetings, all kinds of things they’ve already designed into these tools. So, it’s totally achievable, totally doable. There is just a little more upfront work because you don’t need to teach anyone how to use a pen and a Post-it – well, hopefully – but you might need to do a bit of education on, ‘This is the tool we’re going to use, and this is how we’re going to use it.’ Just think about the different kinds of conversations you want to have, as well, because you can’t have everyone speaking at once. But you have tools like Zoom, which you can do breakout meetings. You can put people into smaller groups, and then bring them back together just like you would in a physical workshop.
I think it’s just thinking about what you want to achieve, looking at the tools that you have, and really planning ahead and doing a bit more stuff upfront to make sure you’re prepared for any weird and wonderful eventualities.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I was using MURAL the other day with a couple of girls who are just starting their own business. I was amazed by how many templates already exist in there; you don’t have create one for yourself. We were doing a business prioritisation exercise and activity, like, ‘What would the roadmap look like? What can we deliver now versus what would the future ideal customer experience be?’ Definitely well worthwhile checking out. Even with less digital skill, there might be something you can use. And, as you said, prepare you audience upfront.
I’m conscious of the time. We’ve been chatting forever already, and it’s gone so fast. So, just one more question, really, which was about – I know you and I have a shared experience of thinking differently than the crowd, publicly declaring our opinions to be contrary to what’s commonly understood or agreed, and then experiencing the backlash of a more established person in the community trying to tear us down.
Claire Durrant:
Mm.
Clare Muscutt – host:
My experience, fortunately, didn’t happen in the public sphere – this person was just really horrible to me on a phone call – but I was really shocked to hear what happened to you when you spoke out that personas might not be as useful as we all think.
Just for the audience’s benefit, could you just tell us the story of why you said that, then what happened, and how you dealt with it?
Claire Durrant:
Yeah, sure. Last year, basically, I did my first-ever conference, which was not a conference; it was an ‘unconference’ called UX Camp Brighton. I would say to everyone to check that out because it’s this great format where you sign up to be a speaker, and you turn up on the day and you stick a thing up on the wall that says, ‘Here’s what I’m talking about,’ and people decide what they’re going to go and see.
I did this talk about personas and how I felt that a lot of the time they were oversimplified, they were stereotypes, and they were actually – not even not useful to designing an experience – but actually could be actively harmful because teams were making assumptions, stereotyping, and lumping people together in a way that really enforced their own bias.
It went down really well, actually, and I suggested some practical things that teams could do to stop that…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Like what? While we’re here, I’m going to ask you: what were the advice tips you gave?
Claire Durrant:
My advice tips were leaving out, or not really worrying so much about, I guess I would call them ‘fluffy’ details, reinforcing things in fact, looking for trends.
When I was first doing personas and you would do a whole load of research, a big quant study perhaps, and create profiles, and those were big and scary but actually they gave you some solid facts about how people behaved. Then, when you were doing usability testing, going back, and validating behaviour, ‘Is this actually what we expected to see?’ if it’s not, the persona needs to change. And going back and revisiting these things. There were a few bits in there. Also, just avoiding the stereotypical pictures of women laughing at salad; that’s a common one. I’ve had clients in the past just be like, ‘Oh, can you basically have one persona of a person in each colour so that we don’t look like we’re focusing on anyone in particular?’ And it’s like, ‘Ah, okay, yep. We’re just doing this for the sake of it, aren’t we?’
Clare Muscutt – host:
Anyway… get back to the story!
Claire Durrant:
Yeah, yeah. It went down well. I was invited back a few months later to the redux because apparently, I’d been voted as one of the top talks of the day, which was incredible.
Clare Muscutt – host:
What’s a redux?
Claire Durrant:
It’s a smaller version, in an evening, of what people have voted as the best ones.
Clare Muscutt – host:
An ‘un-conference’ with a redux, like a redo of the best people?
Claire Durrant:
Yeah, kind of.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Carry on.
Claire Durrant:
Again, it went well. I delivered it, hung around for a bit, and then I had to get my train back to Brighton. When I got on the train, I had a message from one of the attendees, and it was basically like, ‘I’ve actually written a thing on personas. You should read this. You might learn something.’ And I was like, ‘Okay. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt because they might just be trying to help,’ but I didn’t have a look at it then because I was very tired.
When I woke up the next morning, I actually woke up to a Twitter tirade against me. This person had listed over about 12 tweets or so about how awful I was, about the things I was talking about were terrible, I didn’t know what I was talking about; basically, trying to undermine me personally and professionally, even likening me to an anti-vaxxer for the things that I had said, which was just incredible.
I was in shock. I felt absolutely crap because also, I looked at their profile, and this was a person who had over 50,000 followers, one of whom was Stephen Fry, and I think they had founded or helped to found two or three UX conferences, they ran an agency, so they seemed like a very big fish to me. And I’m just spending this whole day thinking, ‘Well, I’m ruined. I’m never going to speak at a conference again. No one’s ever going to listen to a word I say because how many people have seen this tweet? How many people follow this guy and have seen him just rip apart everything I’ve said?’
I remember I was texting a friend because I was literally standing in front of my freezer with a box of frozen snacks, just crying onto this box of snacks.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Oh! Such a sad image.
Claire Durrant:
I just didn’t know what to do. I was standing there like, ‘I don’t know what’s going on.’
I decided to respond. I put some effort into my response. I took my time. I didn’t want it to be emotional because, especially when you’re female, if you get emotional about anything, people will dismiss you because you’re just being an emotional woman. I said, ‘Well, you know what? Firstly, you had opportunities after the conference and the redux to speak to me as a peer, and you chose not to do that. You’ve chosen to reinforce your own ego by doing this and throwing this out there to the world.’
Also, he was shutting down conversation and almost blaming my problems with personas on me, and I’m kind of saying, ‘Hang on, are you blaming a poor user experience on the user? Because that doesn’t sound right.’ And yeah, just saying, ‘This is not the way that you should have done this.’
Clare Muscutt – host:
And you said that publicly, as well? You replied…
Claire Durrant:
I said that publicly, yeah. I’m really glad I did because I got, firstly, just this outpouring of support from the UX community, UX and CX people saying, ‘What he said was totally unfair, totally unfounded,’ that they’d enjoyed my talk – which was lovely to hear – and just that it was unacceptable.
What I also got was a few private messages of people who said that he had done the same to them, and they had lost all their confidence in public speaking, they’d lost their confidence at work, they no longer felt like they could speak out. Even some of them who had worked in his agency saying that they had had that happen in work.
So, it was satisfying to hear that, of course, but also it was a real learning point for me because where I had thought that this was the end of the world and I was devastated, it actually really showed that even though this one person was railing against me, I think every time someone is doing that, there’s probably another 10 people who are supporting you. And especially in our industry, it’s so supportive: people are so supportive of each other; people will offer mentoring; they’ll answer questions; they’ll give you advice. All you have to do is ask – or sometimes not ask – and people will just help you out anyway.
Also, just because someone seems like they’re really big, it doesn’t mean that they’re right. So many people disagreed with him that clearly, it’s a point for contention; not everyone agrees. I feel if not everyone agrees, then this is something that should be debated, it should be questioned. You shouldn’t just accept, ‘Well, this is a tool that we use, so we use it and we don’t question it.’ If it’s not working well for you, absolutely question it. Sharing with each other, understanding each other’s points of view, and really having that open, honest, and frank discussion is the only way that we can improve because otherwise, we’d all still be designing the same websites that were going out in the 90s, which, as exciting as they are, are probably not great.
My final thought on that is if you are in a position of power or a position of authority or you’ve been in a job for a long time, it’s really important to think about how what you’re saying will affect the people that you’re saying it to, and whether you’re being helpful or if you’re just…
Clare Muscutt – host:
Being a massive ego.
Claire Durrant:
Yeah. Trying to be big, trying to be clever – or if you are genuinely trying to help them.
Clare Muscutt – host:
I totally agree with you. I think with customer experience, there is no right answer. It’s been around for a speck of dust in terms of time. There’s so little academia around our subject that it is all open to interpretation. The danger is if we continue to have that approach where the community cordially agrees with each other constantly, we’re perpetuating – to your point – tools and systems and frameworks that frankly came out of the 90s. So, we need progressive thinking, we need to challenge the agenda, we need to question continuously. Anyone who’s standing in the way of that and not wanting open debate and intelligent enquiry has got an agenda of their own, right?
Claire Durrant:
Mm.
Clare Muscutt – host:
So, let’s keep questioning. Let’s keeping standing out there, and let’s keep standing up for ourselves with bigger people who are trying to shoot us down.
I just want to say thanks so much for coming on the show today. I’m sure all our listeners have really enjoyed hearing about the wonders of being a freelance digital nomad, and your story of how you got here.
I think you’re super inspirational, especially given that you came from relatively humble beginnings and crafted this whole incredibly exciting life for yourself. Clearly, you’ve got a huge amount of character to have gone through some of those difficult traumatic experiences, especially with that guy and standing up for yourself, and still being here today, having got over whatever damage he did to your confidence to be on the Women in CX podcast today. I think it’s a great example of an inspiring woman in CX.
Claire Durrant:
Thank you.
Clare Muscutt – host:
Thank you to everybody listening, as well, and we’ll see you next week. Thanks, Claire. Take care!