Clare Muscutt talks with Samantha Conyers about how emerging technologies like ChatGPT will impact customer experience management.
Clare:
Welcome to the 3rd episode of the sixth series of the Women in CX podcast – a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects.
I'll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today's episode, I’ll be talking to an incredible community member from Trinidad and Tobago. She’s the Co-Founder and Chief Experience Officer at EXCO and with over 15 years of experience in the field, among the first in the Caribbean to hold a CX title. With her proven and measurable track record for CX-oriented change, as a certified Trainer and Facilitator, Qualtrics XM Scientist, Net Promoter Expert and Customer Journey Mapper, she supports businesses as they undertake their Customer Experience transformation goals. Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest, CX sister, Samantha Conyers.
Clare:
Hi, Sam!
Sam:
Hi Clare. How are you?
Clare:
I'm good. How are things in Trini?
Sam:
Things are good. Things are very good. Thanks. What about you? How are you?
Clare:
It's definitely not as sunny here as over in the Caribbean for sure, but we're just emerging into spring now in London, so things are brightening up!
Sam:
Well on the positive for you, we are now going into rainy season here, so you're probably going to have better weather than me for a couple of months.
Clare:
Not for long. Not for long. But, welcome to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today. As someone that I've got to know really well over the course of the last couple of years, it feels like this moment was meant to be, that eventually we'd be on a podcast together! So, just thank you so much for being here.
Sam:
Yeah, you know it's amazing the relationship we've built and I'm truly honored to be here and to continue building our relationship and exploring things together and challenging each other and you know, I really enjoy our friendship.
Clare:
Me too. Me too. And welcome to everybody who's listening or watching the podcast wherever you are. We're so glad that you are here too! So I'm going to start with the question I ask all of our podcast guests when they first come on the podcast, and that is to share with our audience how you found your way into the Women in CX community and how things have been going for you since you joined.
Sam:
Yeah, great. So I found my way into Women in CX in the very early days. I was part of the first webinar and you spoke about what the objective of Women in CX was, what the community was all about and I was hooked ever since! I mean having been in the field of Customer Experience, I would say that my early days in the career were very lonely. There were not many people, there were no people in terms of CX as a profession in my region. And, you know, I was really nervous about posting on LinkedIn or communicating on LinkedIn. So I found myself quite, you know, lonely in terms of networking and bouncing ideas off of people and, you know, having that community spirit. So on LinkedIn is where I saw about Women in CX. I had followed you before Clare. I've always been a fan of yours.
Clare:
We were on the 'gram, weren't we? We were Instagram buddies!
Sam:
We are! We've been Instagram buddies for a long time and I've followed you for a long time on Instagram and on LinkedIn. So that's definitely where I heard about Women in CX. And I haven't looked back since. I mean if I think Clare, about my highlights since you guys launched, to now, my highlights have been, well of course, having you here in the Caribbean. For our listeners who don't know, we had the pleasure of having Clare in Trinidad, to speak at our Customer Experience Summit in 2022. We still get great feedback, Clare, about your talk and how relatable and tangible it was.
Clare:
Thank you!
Sam:
And then, you know, as a community member, you know, so much tangible benefits for me in terms of being part of the community. Not only in terms of my own learning, I have been able to connect with like-minded professionals on the network, share ideas, share presentations, challenges, etc. But we've also gotten business out of Women in CX! So we are doing a piece of work, actually the second piece of work, with a bank in Portugal.
Clare:
Oh, congratulations!
Sam:
Yeah, thank you. And that was through WiCX! So, I met Jessica, Jessica, if you're listening, Hi! I met Jessica on the network and we chatted and then it translated into some work and she was really happy with how the first piece of work went. And now we're doing a second piece of work. So real tangible, literal return on investment benefits from being a member of WiCX. So, you know, like I said, I really have had such a positive and impactful, you know, I think that's the word I'd like to use, an impactful experience as of being part of the Women in CX community.
Clare:
Oh, that's so lovely to hear. And now we've got all the EXCO girls, haven't we, as members?
Sam:
Oh yes, of course. So, we have the whole team onboard, which is awesome. And I know that Liz, who is our newest team member, gets a lot of benefits in terms of resources and again, knowledge and training and exposure on the community.
Clare:
Yeah. And I guess this is what we've built the community for, wasn't it, is to bring together women from all over the world to connect with one another, to share opportunities, to collaborate, to learn, share, and grow as a community together. And that's just such an awesome example of, you know, the opportunities translating into work. So someone on the business side, and you guys as an agency being able to do that. But also all the value that you guys have brought to the community as well! In terms of the webinars you've delivered, I know you did a great one on strategy recently. We had Chelsea doing one on journey mapping. Didn't we have Chelsea on the podcast as well? Sharing what it was like to be a Woman in CX in the Caribbean. And lest we forget, after the conference, we had Women in CX Caribbean launch! On the hottest rooftop with palm trees in the background.
Sam:
It was a hot day. Yeah, it was a hot day!
Clare:
A hot day for this little redhead from England, for sure. But being there, there was about 40 women weren't there?
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
At the stage after the conference and yeah, shared their stories and how they got into CX and stuff. So yeah, super,so glad that you joined! And I always remember that we would 'like' each other's stuff, wouldn't we on Instagram and send each other little messages, but we'd never actually met! So yeah, getting to hang out on Zoom, I think before I launched Women in CX? I'm pretty sure we'd hung out. And I just, I was determined that I was going to get you to come and join us!
Sam:
Well, mission accomplished!
Clare:
Mission accomplished, yeah. So, well, obviously we've had to wait for the right timing, but now, not just you, we've got all of the EXCO ladies and so many women that have joined us since the conference as well from the Caribbean.
Sam:
Yeah. Awesome.
Clare:
Yeah, that's so...
Sam:
That's a big win for me, you know! Like I shared with you in the past, I think CX has been...not the biggest profession in the region. And to see the growth, you know, even a 'Customer Experience' search on LinkedIn. I remember again, when I first started in CX so many years ago, it turned up four people in the whole Caribbean! I did it recently and it was over 9,000 results of Customer Experience in the region. So it's a growing field in the region and you know, I feel personally very proud to have any part of that movement.
Clare:
Yeah, but it was you guys driving it there, wasn't it? Because you were...you did your first conference before the pandemic, wasn't it?
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
And then your second one in 2022, obviously you couldn't do them for a couple of years. But you got people from all over the Caribbean to come together for those events. They flew in from Jamaica and Puerto Rico... everywhere, didn't they?
Sam:
Yes, absolutely.
Clare:
And they were all, whenever I spoke to anybody, they were all crediting EXCO as kind of having led the way and introduced them to this. And I'm sure you must have seen a big uptick between 2019 and 2022, in terms of the number of people that attended, right, as well?
Sam:
Yeah, absolutely. And just the interest, I mean, even just the interest and the engagement...it is really growing, which is super exciting for us.
Clare:
Yeah. That's the power of community, right?
Sam:
Absolutely.
Clare:
Generally, the Customer Experience community, as we've definitely talked about before...beyond WiCX, just generally is an exciting, and fun, and kind place to be. And yeah, I think it's all about that kind of shared opportunity and helping one another, isn't it? And bringing people together to keep advancing things. And it's just, yeah, wonderful to see you ladies, three or four ladies now, isn't it?
Sam:
Four, yes!
Clare:
Four powerful women standing up on that stage and leading the way for everyone. I was so proud of you!
Sam:
Oh, thank you, Clare. Right back at you.
Clare:
Love! So, I'm sure the audience would love to know more about you, Sam. I'm sure a lot of people have seen you on LinkedIn. You've been popping up on quite a few podcasts and webinars. But what's your career journey been like in this region where Customer Experience is literally exploding right now, but wasn't not that long ago?
Sam:
Well, I think just you know, a really quick highlight, I would say that I started in CX in a bank in London, sort of by accident, right? I accidentally fell into it. And as I always say, I spent most of my time making coffee and organising meetings. But I quickly learned, from the people that I was supporting, the value of Customer Experience. In that, you know, combining processes and operational components, data analytics, design work, with the more human and human relations and empathetic side, or personal side, immediately caught my attention, right? I love the idea of bringing the two together and I had really never seen a profession that empowered and encouraged people to do that. So when I moved back to Trinidad in 2009, I got a job in an insurance company and it was customer relations at the time. And I begged, I remember begging the person I was reporting to, to turn it into Customer Experience.
Sam:
And eventually she agreed. And since then, you know, I have been able...I've had such an amazing opportunity to lead, implement, and design Customer Experience programs for businesses. So, the insurance company was the first one where, you know, we designed from scratch what a CX program should look like, what it meant to the insurance company, what we needed to do, how we resourced it. And as a result of that opportunity, I was then headhunted from my next corporate role, I should say, which was in Digicel. Which is the largest telecoms operator in the Caribbean. And I stayed in Digicel for nearly seven years, as the Head of Customer Experience, and I was the first Customer Experience resource there too. So I was, again, but on a much bigger scale, able to design, deploy, implement Customer Experience management programs and the related technologies that went with them. I left Digicel, the business was going through some transformational changes. I had just become a Mom and I left Digicel and we started EXCO. I started, created and co-founded EXCO. And we're actually going to be five years old on May 1st!
Clare:
Oh my gosh!
Sam:
EXCO will be five years old on May the first.
Clare:
Oh, we'll have to have a birthday party!
Sam:
I know. And as you know, literal blood, sweat, and tears have gone into EXCO! And a lot of, you know, joy and proud moments. At EXCO, I am the Chief Experience Officer, so we work with clients to help them deliver better. Whether that is better customer experiences, internal processes and operations, employee experiences work better together, understand their customers better. We're really trying to, as we like to say now, our new sort of way of working is 'making better possible for our clients'.
Clare:
Nice. Yeah, what an amazing journey. And it really resonates with me, that I have a shared similar experience. Where every Customer Experience job I did, I was the first person to do Customer Experience. The first with it in my job title. Progressing through gradually bigger companies and still always having that blank sheet of paper to start with. But I think that really helped me because I couldn't rely on anyone else's way of doing stuff. I had to figure out the right way to do it for the business I was in at the time. And I think maybe therefore why consultancy came so easily for me when I left, is because basically that's what I've been doing the whole time. And taking blank sheets of paper and figuring out what needed to be done.
Sam:
And I want to just build on that Clare, because I think that, you know, I don't know about the rest of the world, but I can tell you in our region, consultants have a really bad reputation. You know, consultants are known in the Caribbean region for being very expensive and coming in doing very strategic or theoretical work and then handing you a 400 page binder, telling you what you should do.
Clare:
And the bill!
Sam:
And the bill. And I love what you just said there about your corporate life preparing you for this type of work, because that's honestly exactly how I feel. Because having the opportunity to do it for, you know, more than one business, it really did provide me with this framework in my own mind for what works and what doesn't work.
Sam:
And then I've been able to take that experience from my corporate life. And thankfully it was different industries, right? So it's not to say I've just done it, for example, with telcos, I've done it across industries. So, to then be able to take that experience and apply it to other businesses. And ideally, help other businesses of course, understand the real tangible values of a proper strategic experience management framework. I actually almost don't like to call myself a consultant in the Caribbean. I like to, you know, think of myself as a contractor, a freelancer almost, because again, of the reputation that consultants have. Because we are the exact opposite, you know, as I know you are.
Clare:
Yeah, yeah. But then now having founded a start-up and had to do everything, from the design, to the delivery and the implementation across every single aspect, whether that's product, service, marketing, email, sales. If I was ever to go back into the corporate world now, I think I would be such a different leader in the world. But I think that's what it's about, isn't it? It's about taking the experience that we gain, metabolising it, applying it, testing and learning, and just continuing that growth plan. And I know for where I'm at right now, I feel like every day is still a school day. I'm learning something new. Constantly.
Sam:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Clare:
And yeah we keep evolving, don't we? We keep going. But yeah, I suppose consulting/consultants in the CX industry globally, I think have, not a negative reputation, but there are so many people out there that are professing to...
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
...create value, when actually all they're creating is paper and because so many CX programs fail there is definitely, I think, a higher demand for skilled day rate contractors. Who actually go in, roll their sleeves up and design something or deliver something, or a part of a transformation program. And also just the way that businesses are approaching things differently. Nobody is looking for a CX transformation now, they're looking for "how do I navigate Customer Experience, but I'm going through digital transformation?", for example.
Sam:
Exactly.
Clare:
And the strategic driver of what the organisation is trying to do, isn't necessarily being driven from the angle it previously was. But, we're going to come on to talk about everything in terms of digital and the change technology is driving shortly. But before we move on to that, there must have been some barriers or challenges you had to overcome personally or professionally to get to where you are today. Is there anything that you could share with our listeners and watchers?
Sam:
Yeah, I mean, I think there are challenges daily, right? You know, you mentioned the challenges of a start-up. So personally right now and slash professionally, because when you have your own business, it's a little bit personal, a little bit professional...
Clare:
A bit of both.
Sam:
...with everything.
Clare:
The lines definitely blur!
Sam:
Yeah, absolutely. Every day is a struggle when you think about work-life balance, you know, and turning off for some period of the day. You and I speak about this a lot and being very self-aware of when you are reaching that burnout or overwhelm. So, that's definitely a challenge for me. And something that I didn't realise was a challenge and I'm now trying to be more aware of it, is micromanaging from a perfectionist perspective. So, you know, I'm working on letting go and having a little bit less hands in everything because, you know, as the saying goes, when you're juggling too many things, something is definitely going to drop at one point or the other. So those are my current challenges that I'm working on. And I think, in terms of...as you mentioned starting your own business, we had a lot of financial challenges in terms of how we started the business. So, you know, I remember when we were looking for a bank loan to get the business up and running, we had of course absolutely no salaries for quite a long time. We were denied all the bank loans we applied for, which I couldn't understand why we were denied it and we never ended up getting a bank loan. So that not having a salary for months on end was definitely a big challenge.
Clare:
Yeah, bootstrapping is hard.
Sam:
Yeah, and you hear all about it, right? You read the stories and you read the business books and they tell you that, "Oh, I didn't make any money for the first X-years." It's really hard to go through it, especially when you have a family to support. Or a roof above your head that you are responsible for paying for. So that was a big challenge in start-up. And as a contractor/consultant, that's always a challenge, right? Keeping that pipeline healthy, and working, this is one that is huge for me, working on the business, not just in the business.
Clare:
Yeah! And it's a mindset shift, isn't it? So, I think there are about four or five things I can relate to in what you said there. So, I think there's this connection between all three of the things that you shared there. So, this relationship that we have with burnout is also partly due to the fact that we're perfectionists. And it means that we manage every single detail because part of the reason we're successful is because we deliver such high quality, right?
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
Such a high standard, that means people come back and want to work with us more. But when you're running a business, you also have to run the business.
Sam:
Exactly!
Clare:
But for, I suppose, a CX practitioner, let's just call ourselves practitioners for today.
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
People who love rolling their sleeves up and actually doing the work, that's where our 'happy point' is. We love being in the workshops, we love facilitating, we love creating innovation, doing research, creating prototypes, user testing, finding things out. So finding that, I don't want to say balance, but having to run a business, and it takes you away from doing the things that you really love and enjoy doing. And that's draining, isn't it?
Sam:
Absolutely!
Clare:
I don't, I don't think I've been honest about this, particularly enjoy running a business. I love creating experiences for our members. I love doing our research and co-design, that's fine, brilliant! But the bigger we get, the more there is to think about and run as a business. So there's this intersection between learning to let go.
Clare:
So the detail is still always amazing, but it's not necessarily you overseeing everything, creating that pipeline of talent within the team that means you can step away and do things that maybe you don't really want to do. But also remembering I suppose, where your strengths are and ensuring that you protect enough of your time and headspace to still do the thing that you were there, that you loved, you know the reason that you did it in the first place.
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
Because it can become demoralising, I think, when you are working so hard and financial difficulties arrive. And if you are not suitably sustained with energy at that time, it can knock you like literally over. It's done it to me before, you hit a road bump and because you're so exhausted, that road bump feels like you've just walked straight into a wall.
Sam:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Clare:
And your resilience is down. But I don't have kids. And you do, you've got two, haven't you? And young as well. I can't imagine having to do all of this and having babies. I don't know...
Sam:
Well, you've seen them walk in many times. They won't today because they're at school.
Sam:
But yeah, the kids of course demand a different level of energy. But I think that, you know, if I didn't have kids, my energy would be going somewhere else too. So, I think you hit the nail on the head with the word balance. Right. And it never means 50/50, you know. I think people think balance means 50/50, but that's not possible. I think balance means, for me at least, balance means some days might be like this and other days might be like this. And then how do you start to sort of, you know, it's almost like a see-saw, a kid's see-saw. And when you meet in that middle, how do you optimise that moment and that middle moment? And you know, for me, I really try to put little routines in place. I'm a very structured person. So those little routines really help me. So some people think I'm insane, but like you, I know you do this too, but I wake up at 04:30 in the morning so that I can go to the gym.
Clare:
Oh, I get an extra half an hour in bed. I'm only 5:00 AM!
Sam:
Well, same thing, but you know what I mean. That for me is balance, for somebody else that's insane.
Clare:
That's crazy. Yeah. No, but I...so I can't remember where I picked this up. But I had a conversation with somebody recently, we were discussing this thing around "work-life balance" in air quotes. And they were saying, "Well it's not really, it shouldn't be about work-life balance, it's about life-work balance".
Sam:
Yeah!
Clare:
And I was like, "Oh my god. Yeah, I have got this totally the wrong way around!" I'm trying to fit my personal life in with the work I have to do, and not not other way around. And the last three years, really, I look back and now I'm like, "Oh my God, where is my life?" Like my what? My life has become my job. Yeah, so for me, like you, actually getting up early and having five hours in the day, which are for me to work out to meditate, to do whatever I want, that is my sanity.
Sam:
Exactly.
Clare:
But I also need to get a social life back and start dating again because I put all of that on hold. And that's not healthy. But when I let go of the routines and just did work, I thought I was losing my mind at one point. I'm not joking. I don't think... I felt like I was going to go insane. Because without that grounding, I think - maybe less so than balance for me, without having that time and that space, I'm just useless after a few weeks of that.
Sam:
Yeah, exactly.
Clare:
So being able to learn to put ourselves, not only first but before and above everything else, is definitely a challenge for me too. But I know when I'm doing it, which at the moment is sporadically. I know when I get to do this consistently, imagine what we could achieve! In our professional lives and our whole lives, not coming from a place of exhaustion.
Sam:
Exactly!
Clare:
I keep imagining the day will come when I figure that out!
Sam:
And I take those like "Aha!" moments. Actually, my son said to me last night, we were having, we were sitting out for dinner and he said, "What's wrong, Mom?" And I said, "I'm just tired kid". And he said, "Mom, you're always tired". And I was like, "Oh, there you go." To your point, it's like that "Ah-ha!". Okay, pump the brakes a little bit and make a little bit, not just more time for them, but more time so that you're not exhausted.
Clare:
Exhausted. Yeah.
Sam:
I felt so guilty.
Clare:
Well, don't feel guilty about it, but it is just true, isn't it? You cannot pour from an empty cup!
Sam:
Exactly.
Clare:
And something about you and me that is quite similar, is we can pour from very, very shallow cups. That we can have literally nothing but still be pouring! And no one would know that we've got hardly anything in our cup, because we can keep that abundance going for other people. Yeah, that can be our promise to each other. Accountability for 2023 this summer. Yeah. I think we'll have to keep checking in on each other on that.
Sponsor Message:
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Sam:
Yeah, absolutely.
Clare:
So, moving into the CX part of our conversation today, you wanted to talk about what's been all over the news of late, which is the impact of new technology, like Chat GPT, on Customer Experience. So, I thought we could just chew the breeze about what we're seeing, what kinds of content is out there that's creating waves, and maybe not so necessarily such positive ones. Because from my point of view, there definitely is a way that technology can support Customer Experience, but for me, a lot of the way it's been implemented or thought about from a mindset point of view, is actually disruptive to Customer Experience. So tell me, Sam, what are you seeing? What are you hearing and what are you making of it?
Sam:
Yeah, I think like you, I have the same gut reaction to it, right? Like, "Oh gosh, this is very disruptive to a seamless experience". And you know, as we chatted about briefly before, I want to thank you for always being so open with the information that you share. Especially on the community around, you know, how tech can impact CX or supplement/benefit CX. And it's actually really relevant now in our region because we are seeing quite a few companies implementing more contact center technologies. And as a result, laying off quite a few people in the region. And I know we're seeing that, we're seeing layoffs everywhere, right? And I think a lot of people are tying them together thinking they go hand-in-hand, the tech and the layoffs. And it was interesting because I was watching, in preparation for a webinar, I was looking at a couple different podcasts and interviews and webinars. And I saw Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, he was being very transparent and he said along the lines of that you know, Chat GPT and AI and machine learning...whatever call centre agents are doing right now...he actually said that whatever they're doing, that it can replace them.
Sam:
And yeah, he acknowledged that he thought there was going to be a lot of job layoffs and job loss because of it. And actually, I got excited because I said, "Well, the fact that he said whatever they're doing means he has no idea what call centre agents are doing." And I mean that with all the respect in the world, right? And I'll share my own personal example. I remember when I joined Digicel, it was around Christmas time, it was November. And of course, as you would imagine, Digicel's very busy at Christmas time. And I was like, you know what, I saw the agents struggling and drowning, both on the call centre side as well as in the store sites. And I was like, I worked in retail, like we all do, you know, I worked in retail when I was young and selling, and I was a bartender. So, I was like, "Let me go and help in the store, let me help in the call centre, I have a Master's, I can do this."
Sam:
I could not do what the call centre agents were doing. The level of system orchestration and multitasking, or multi-screening as they call it in call centres, in order to deliver an experience or a customised and really personalised experience, took literal orchestrating of different systems. And Clare, you know, my background, I mean, I wouldn't call myself overly techy, but I definitely know technology. I know what it is capable of. I worked in telecoms for nearly seven years. So, I'm very familiar with technology. But I can tell you that, immediately technology cannot just come in and replace what call centre agents are doing. And what I would love to see is more of a switch to think about, and I guess this is a challenge for business leaders, of course from an OpEx and CapEx perspective, but how we can use this type of technology to enhance or supplement the experiences that we're delivering and deliver.
Sam:
You know, we have been talking about personalised experiences for, I don't even know how long, but we've been talking about delivering personalised experiences forever. And the reality is some businesses have been doing it. I mean if I log in to Netflix, I'm going to see different recommendations based on what I've watched, based on what I've clicked, browse or watch the trailers. Amazon, right? You know, Amazon makes recommendations for me and I spend half my salary every month based on their personalised recommendation. So, businesses have been doing it, right? And I think that what worries me slash, you know, the optimist in me, excites me, is how do we use these technologies to make Customer Experience more intelligent and, rather than a cost centre, more of an intelligent centre? And really empower Customer Experience practitioners like ourselves, with data to deliver more personalised experiences and then, where applicable, measure the return of those more personalised experiences for the bottom line on our business.
Clare:
Yeah. There's a term that I coined in 2021, which was from a keynote that I did, called Augmented Humanity. And it was... the thrust of it was, basically there was a lot of fear around what technology is going to do in terms of taking people's jobs or taking over. Because there is inherently a new level of risk, I think, with conversational AI we're seeing it already, aren't we? Conversational AI can hallucinate, it can completely make stuff up that isn't true. OpenAI is called OpenAI because they were building a technology that's open source, that could be used by anybody. And it was a foundation rather than something that was taking investment to become corporate, but then it received a billion pounds of funding from Microsoft! And now it has become something that people are trying to harness for commercial reasons.
Clare:
Right? Which is understandable. But I don't think this is that much of a different conversation than when chatbots first arrived. Which was the business case for implementing expensive technology, is you can take people out of the equation. So, when businesses are looking at tech, even though a lot of the tech vendor organisations are marketing the improvement that can be made from Customer Experience, even if something can be conversational, if it's still built on a bad knowledge base or inaccurate data, or the same problems that exist today, it's still going to not create a great experience.
Sam:
Exactly.
Clare:
And I can see generative AI and conversational AI, you know, kind of chatbots are going to get better. That's good because probably most of the headcount already got taken out when they put a chatbot in the first place. But with Chat GPT or OpenAI, technology could make things better there.
Clare:
But, I'm thinking helping agents to write responses if there's a good knowledge base. To copy write or make notes, when they're in the contact centre, from those calls. You could make loads of efficiencies and actually make their jobs and lives easier, but it's not necessarily bringing that technology to the customer forefront, which is what everybody's immediately jumping to. But I also think, you know, you talked about a range of different technology applications there. I think we have to catch up as a CX discipline, to accept the reality that Customer Experience is being driven by technology and technology adoption. Customer Experience is being affected by digital transformation. And we can't just keep going, "We need to do things differently and focus on the Customer Experience" and lead a transformation customer-centric-ly by that way.
Clare:
We've got to help to ensure that whatever's being transformed through the implementation of technology, remains customer focused an in the customer or humans' best interest. Because if you think about where these programs and projects are led from, typically technology teams, typically based on business requirements and very little vision of what's the experience we want to deliver for the humans in the mix. And that's where we can help, right?
Sam:
Totally agree.
Clare:
If we can work to define the target experience our brand wants to offer our customers, and when any technology is implemented or designed, it needs to help to deliver that. We cannot control the ins and outs of the interactions in technology, and nor should we try to. But we can certainly help to craft a vision for it. So, I'm with you. And then the marketing aspect, sorry, I'm on a little bit of a monologue now...
Sam:
That's ok.
Clare:
I've been thinking about this stuff, but the front-end with personalisation is usually being done because it drives sales, right? Or it drives purchase, or it drives a button click, or something. That's all great. Again, how do you architect that vision for the experience that that technology can enable? Because we want the clicks, we want the purchases, we want the efficiencies, but not at the expense of the experience. And we can do that. We can create this future.
Sam:
Agreed. I totally agree.
Clare:
It's a very different skill set for CX professionals to be able to work with that. And it is a lot more about design than it's ever been about survey creation, voice of the customer...
Sam:
Yeah.
Clare:
... the more traditional routes. Sorry, I don't know how long I spoke for then, but I ran out of breath!
Sam:
That's okay! And something you said there made me, you know, really resonated with me, because again, people think of automation as removing the human element. But for me, when I think about personalised experiences, I'd rarely challenge any type of automation to deliver truly personalised experiences. And I think that where it really adds value, from a CX perspective for the business, is not just automating everything, right? Because of course, there's definite value in automating processes, a simple knowledge base, to your point, like if I need...
Clare:
To take people away from customers unnecessarily.
Sam:
Exactly. Exactly! So, personalised experiences for me are not the result of automation at all. It's quite the opposite. Rather they are the result of businesses actively choosing and understanding their customers’ wants, needs, and behaviours, and choosing what to automate and what not to. And you know, when we think about, you know, to go back to the call centre experience. I think I would love if I had a problem with something and I could quickly type it in, and an intelligent bot or whatnot, give me access to fixing my problem. But there are certain things that I actually want to speak to a human being for. And I don't think that's ever gonna change, right? So, how do we actively drive, to your point, that design work to help businesses understand, one, the experience that they're actually delivering? Because one thing I see a lot here, Clare, and I'm sure you have in your career too, but a big gap in perceptual alignment, right? So, businesses think they're delivering things a certain way, but when you go out and either, A, experience the experience yourself, or get feedback from customers, really dig into that feedback, there's a big gap in that perceptual alignment in terms of, "Are we delivering what we actually think we are?" So, how do we use, again to bring it back to technology, how do we use technology to enhance those moments, right?
Clare:
Yeah. I'm giggling away because on that presentation that I told you about from 2021, I found some stats. It was from the most recent global CX study. And it was the perception gap between how well businesses think digital transformation was going versus customers and there was a 30% gap, with the businesses thinking it was way better than the customers did.
Clare:
But yeah, I see it as a huge wide-open opportunity, but the discipline hasn't quite caught up yet. And technology is moving at such pace that it's not going to stop. There's no slowing down and nor should we try to. But I do agree with that point around, yeah, automation's great! Automating things that you don't need people to waste their time doing it. I know in WiCX, when we discovered Zapier, that could automate emails or messages based on what reaction or actions people were taking, this is a very basic level compared to big corporate organisations, but it saved us so much time. But it only takes one bug to completely mess up the system. It still requires the human to write and craft the messages and when a zap fails literally everything stops. So it's not infallible either.
Sam:
No.
Clare:
And what I'm figuring out is when you build in loads of automation and loads of digital, actually it's quite easy to lose sight of everything that's going on.
Sam:
Absolutely.
Clare:
Because it's all happening on its own! And when... We frequently go back and we look at our onboarding journey for example, or our communications, we'll find an email that's in an automation, but it was from like eight months ago and we'll be like, "Oh my God, that tone of voice is just so not us anymore!"
Sam:
Exactly. Exactly.
Clare:
Yeah. So, it's pretty big. So, clearly there is a difference between Customer Experience, managing customer experiences and implementing technologies to manage Customer Experience. Is there anything you'd like to kind of leave our listeners with around that point of view?
Sam:
Yeah, well I think that ties directly back to what we just spoke about around design work. I saw on LinkedIn the other day, I think you saw it too, somebody had shared, "Look at this customer journey map done all by AI". And I was really interested to see the work that was done. And of course when I clicked on it, I was like, "Oh, this is definitely not a customer journey map". It's a great start and, you know, it's a great foundation, or almost journey spine, but without the design work, without the Customer Experience oriented methodologies and tools, and data...
Clare:
Research!
Sam:
....data and research, for me, are the most overlooked and underutilised CX tools in our region. So, I always find myself, and you would know this, I always find myself trying to speak on Customer Experience data, experiential data, linking experiential data to operational and financial data. And again, I think that's where tech can really help us. I think that linkage of data, which can be very difficult to do manually, very time consuming and requires quite enhanced and advanced skill sets that not everybody has. And as you and I were talking about earlier, very time consuming. I love to see and learn from the CX-led tech that's doing that. So, OCX Cognition has a platform called Spectrum, and they are taking Customer Experience tools, methodologies, mindsets. Of course, it's run by Richard Owen, who's one of the creators of the net promoter score.
Samantha :
So a real CX background. He himself will tell you, you know, survey programs are failing, exactly as you just said. And how can we be more advanced, analytical and predictive with data? So, you know, they've built an engine that allows businesses to use Customer Experience data, linking to operational and financial data, and start to predict using models to predict customer behaviours and customer outcomes. So, that's the stuff that excites me, to see the evolution of tech, as you said, with a CX mindset rather than trying to force CX into a tech. So I think that, you know, the theme for today is definitely balanced for you and I.
Clare:
Yeah, it is!
Sam:
Yeah, but that's where I get excited and I start to want to learn more and read more. And, you know, in preparing for this call, I was looking up different statistics and different case studies. And I found a stat that 75% of businesses are struggling to deploy CX technologies in their business at this time. And I just thought, that was through a McKinsey article, and I thought, I remember when we were reading, and you spoke about this earlier too, how many CX programs are failing? So, you know, how do we...
Clare:
And digital transformations are failing...both failing, right?
Sam:
Everything is failing! How do we find the balance, right? And how do we use automation to, instead of replace human connection, shorten the route to human connection? So, if I was an agent or in, I guess, an ideal world, we use things like AI to shorten that route to valued human connection. So simple example, if I call a call center, obviously, you know, my mobile number coming in, you should know a little bit about me. So, I don't have to repeat basic information. You know, those are the kind of things I would love to see in tech and AI!
Clare:
Yeah, agent empowerment through technology.
Sam:
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly!
Clare:
Yeah. Oh, that was awesome. And I'm sure this will continue to evolve. It's a huge topic for us in the community. It is going to be a huge topic for us on things like LinkedIn Live panel debates coming up. So Sam, it'd be great to get you back and appear on one of those and kicking this around a bit more. But thanks so much for joining me today. You're awesome!
Sam:
Oh Clare, I love chatting with you. It always feels like catching up with an old friend, whatever we're talking about. Thank you for always having me and supporting me, and yeah, I would love to be part of the next panel. You know, I learned so much from the community. I really appreciate being part of it!
Clare:
Love! And thanks to everyone who listened or watched today as well. And we'll be back next time, but for now, see you soon. Bye.
Sam:
Bye!
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the episode, please drop us a like, subscribe and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world's first online community for women in Customer Experience, please check out www.womenincx.community/membership.
Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to one of our community members from London about Emotional Intelligence in Leadership. See you all soon!
