‘Does your CX/EX leave a bad taste in people’s mouths?’, with Sandra Thompson
Episode #701 show notes:
Clare:
It’s here! The 1st episode of the 7th series of the Inspiring Women in CX podcast!
A series usually dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in CX, this series we’ll also be putting some of our awesome allies in the hot seat too! No longer rehashing the same old conversations, in this series, you can expect us to challenge the status quo on CX topics, provocative discourse, and of course, plenty of healthy debate!
I’ll be your host, Clare Muscutt and in today’s episode, I’ll be talking to one of our more audacious community members from the UK.
An independent customer and employee experience consultant and the UK’s first Goleman Emotional Intelligence Coach, she blends EI with customer and employee experience to help her clients achieve better results. She believes that when we know how the brain works, we’re more likely to create stronger emotional connections between customers, employees, and colleagues too.
A TEDx speaker, contributing author, and trainer, let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest, CX sister, Sandra Thompson.
Clare:
Hi, Sandra.
Sandra:
Hi. How are you?
Clare:
I'm really good. How are you?
Sandra:
Do you know what? I'm smashing.
Clare:
That feels good to say it, doesn't it? We're good. We're good.
Sandra:
It's been an amazing week. And I started reflecting on the year and just thinking, wow, what an incredible journey. Again, honestly.
Clare:
Yeah. But welcome to the Women in CX podcast.
Sandra:
Thank you.
Clare:
And welcome to everybody who's listening along as well. So, on that note of reflection, I thought we could start maybe by sharing with the audience a little bit more about why you joined Women in CX and how it's going.
Sandra:
Do you know what? I just recall having conversations with you, excited conversations with you about this thing that you were doing, and it seemed so obvious, but also so necessary and the right time. I really have to stop in my tracks to remember that I work on my own. I work very often with males. I think I am a feminist, and I'm definitely out there for the underdog. And so when you presented the opportunity and you invited me to do a webinar on emotional intelligence, it was just like, I don't think you even finished the sentence. I was like, yes, I'll do it, I'll do it. So I remember being there in the early days and just thinking, this is going to be amazing.
Clare:
Yeah. And how do you feel it's gone? If that was your expectation.
Sandra:
I honestly don't know how you do it. You and your team and the energy, the innovation, the passion, the grit, the determination, the resilience, and loads of other words that won't come to me immediately. I don't know how you do it. The first conference, despite all of the things that could have set us back, train strikes and this and that and the other, and it was a massive success. And look at what just happened last October, the quality of the content that's available, the fact that you demonstrate. I suppose this is a bit kind of like, well, you'd hope so, really, but you listen to feedback and you respond to it. So I can't believe it's only been going for, what's it, nearly three years. It just feels like it's existed forever, which is a good thing.
Sandra:
And I think that friendships and opportunities and the relevance of the conversation, it's only when I think about some of the things that have happened in my career and to reframe them of. Actually, that was wrong and I survived it, but it was wrong at the time, as a woman in business and to hear other people overcome their challenges and still succeed. It's just incredible, Clare.
Clare:
What kind of challenges would you say were examples of that?
Sandra:
So I remember joining. I remember working in one particular role and a trustee of another organization reaching out to me and saying, we really would like you to come and join this other organization. And I dictated my terms and they seemed to snap me up, which was a bit like, okay, this seems a bit too good to be true, what's happening here? And I was the only woman on a middle-class, middle-aged male board,
Clare:
All white as well, probably?
Sandra:
Majority white. Majority white. There was one gentleman, I think, who had come from Sri Lanka, and if I play back now to the WiCX community, some of the language that was used, some of the allegations that were made, some of the challenges and barriers that were put in my way to do my job, they would be shocked that I tolerated that and I left in the end. But there were things like, so I was the Marketing Director and in charge of sales and there were all sorts of comments like, yeah, you'll be able to do such and such because you'll just chat them up. All this type of banter that you kind of smile, and there wasn't a full smile, but there was a kind of tolerant. You're an idiot.
Sandra:
But I'm just going to get on with doing my work because I am utterly brilliant and you can stick it because I'm going to show you. And I returned great numbers for them, but there was always that undertone of sexism and probably a bit of narcissistic behaviour, and I left and left them to it and went on to something much better for me. But I did tolerate that for about a year, a year too long. But again, it taught me a bunch of stuff around how to set out expectations at the start. So it's no big surprise when I challenge this one particular gentleman and say, it's not okay for you to speak to me that way. I am probably 15 to 17 years your junior, but I am very well-experienced. I'm a thoroughbred in comparison to what you are. Although I wouldn't say that bit.
Sandra:
And just give me a bit of respect, please. A trustee's brought me in to do a job. They've recognized that something needs to be shaken up here. Let's just get on with it for the sake of a business.
Clare:
Yeah, and I think that's a good point, isn't it? Things have changed in terms of how much women will tolerate that kind of behaviour. But it still is happening all over the place, isn't it? And we hear those stories all the time in the community. But now I think we are feeling more self-empowered to say, that's not okay and do something about it. So, yeah, I agree with you. Thank you for that little trip down memory lane.
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To find out more about Kantar's CX practice, please visit the sponsor links on the homepage of womenincx.community. Now back to the episode.
Clare:
So we were just talking about conference. He did the first conference with us. He came again the second conference.
Clare:
I was thinking about your reflections on the day, and particularly your reflections on the workshop that you run. I'd love you to tell the audience a little bit more about what was going on in there, in that room.
Sandra:
I get invited to school reunions and I avoid them like the plague. But when I went to the second conference, I was honestly and legitimately really excited for seeing a bunch of people who I either follow on LinkedIn, who I may have met in a number of years before. And the greeting with one another was genuine. It was real hugs and a genuine interest. You don't see that type of behaviour displayed at other gatherings of any profession. I haven't seen it. You see formal, professional exchanges. You don't see warmth and support.
Sandra:
So I think for me, I was just hugely excited to know that I would be seeing X, Y and Z people, and also to know that there'd be a bunch of new people who I'd never met, who I'd really want to talk to, to understand them a bit more. The agenda, again, was outstanding. The day passes by a bit too quickly. It's a bit like you've planned a massive party, and before you know it, everyone's going home. It's one of those for the workshop. Oh, dear. So, last year's workshop was the CX game, which I'm a facilitator of. It's not my product.
Sandra:
I'm a facilitator of it. And everyone is sitting around the table. They're in four teams, and it's basically just chaos because you're asking questions, people are sharing their knowledge. There's Play Doh, there's Lego, there's know, there's all sorts of stuff going on, and people are having beefy conversations with one another and exchanging ideas. But it's fun. So people are learning stuff without perhaps really realizing what's going on, and I just.
Clare:
Experiential.
Sandra:
Well, that's it. It's exactly that. And I think the last time I ran it, this is the first one, word has got round, and all of a sudden there were 30 people. There's only going to be twelve. There were like, I know, not 28 people. And I was just like, okay, let's just. Oh, yeah.
Clare:
Because we'd made sure that there were the right number of people, but then everyone had heard, like, the noise that was coming out of that room. And then some people just decided, I'm not going to go to my workshop. I'm going to go in that room instead.
Sandra:
Yes, I'm sorry to the other workshop leaders, but it was a really good laugh. But this year I wanted to try something different. So I went down the employee experience route. And you know what, Clare? I designed something within an inch of its life. And then a week before, I ripped it up and started again, because I just thought, this isn't funny enough. This isn't funny enough. So I ordered some disposable white coats to pretend that we were in a lab. And it became a series of five exercises that included some highly sensory is the best way to describe it experiences.
Sandra:
We had conversations about five different steps of the employee journey, and people took things back that they afterwards were messaging me on LinkedIn to say, I tried that with my team, and it really worked. Or someone said, could you give me another academic reference to this? Because I'm about to do this with my team. So it felt good to have a bit of a laugh. It felt great that people were using the stuff I was talking about. But, yeah, it was employee experience. So watch this space for next year. Who knows if I'm allowed to do one?
Clare:
Of course, you already booked. I was going to say, can you give one example of one of the activities that people have gone back and done with their team? I need to know this jelly bean one. Everyone was talking about jelly beans. Was it that one?
Sandra:
I'll come back to that in just a second. So there was one section where we talked about your future plan. So your next plan for six months to twelve months to 18 months. And the idea is that you work through a number of steps to come out with a plan of things you need to do to make progress. That's really the essence of the whole thing. But you start off with a scenario, which is imagine you're at a networking event, you bump into someone you admire, and you choose what you're going to tell them about what you're doing. So already you're splitting out those things you're proud of, those things you don't really want to talk about, and those things you avoid like the plague, which is a signal for those things you have good energy for, those things that take a lot of effort and things you just hate completely. And so what you've got basically is a template where you answer a series of questions and at the end of it, you've got something you can do, whether it's a small thing or a large one.
Sandra:
One thing to do every month to get you to where a good place is, where good energy is. And there are a couple of people who actually use that with them. They did it themselves and then they got their team to do it. And it seemed to bring about new conversations. It addressed some of the lack or the opportunity with individuals. So totally different insight to your normal one-to-one or your normal appraisal, because it's going deeper into. I wouldn't say it's going deeper into your psyche, but I would say that it's asking you difficult questions, but in quite a gentle way. And it's asking you really to hold the mirror up with no judgment.
Sandra:
You can do it yourself and you choose what you share on the point of the jelly beans. Oh, my gosh. So you got jelly beans and then you've got Beanboozled, which is basically, you get two beans of the same colour. One is very nasty and one is very tasty, but it's a bit like roulette. And so one of the exercises in the workshops that I do is to do, okay, now pick five and then eat them. Please go and get a glass of water and please get a napkin, because we have people going, disgusting, or, that's quite tasty. And the point of that is psychological safety. You don't know what you're going to get when you meet your colleagues or you're working with your boss, but it is absolutely an emotional reaction to whatever you're presented with.
Sandra:
So it's trying to make things more visceral, more emotionally responsive to your whole body. To make the point about how you show up has an impact on others. But it's hilarious because I've never eaten them. I'm like, oh, I hope it's all right.
Clare:
I know it's not going to be.
Sandra:
It's hilarious.
Clare:
This is Beanboozled.
Sandra:
Yeah, Beanboozled. So, you got dishwater or toothpaste or liver and onions, or you've got bogeys, or you've got sick. They call it barf. I mean, come on. I ran a workshop this week and I needed the participants to keep it at a high level. And I said, if you don't keep it to a high level, someone's going to get one of these beans, the barf bean, the barf bean. And they're like, okay, we won't do that. And they were kind of late coming back, so I was out there in the main lunch area shaking this particular box of these horrible beans, and they're like, all right, we come in and.
Clare:
What's Beanboozled got to do with customer experience? So you said about, personally, your emotional reactions to what you're presented with. What's that got to do with CX?
Sandra:
So, we have an expectation that sweets will be nice.
Clare:
Yeah.
Sandra:
And it might be nice, or it might be absolutely disgusting.
Clare:
And look the same on the outside.
Sandra:
That's exactly it. So, you take a leap of faith that you're going to eat this thing and it's going to be fine, and it turns out to be utterly repulsive. And so you want to get rid of it as quickly as you can, if you can, which is why you drink the water or you spit it out. And that's how significant bad customer experience and appalling employee experience is. You're never going to forget it, because I've got people who experienced this intervention six months ago and they're still messaging me. I cannot get that taste of liver and onions out of my mouth. It's there. It's a constant reminder, like, well, there we go, then.
Sandra:
Make sure your experiences are good.
Clare:
That's so funny. My brain was just thinking about examples of something a little bit similar where now I have an aversion for anything to do with customer query portals because I've had such a terrible experience with one supplier. It's actually like when you pay ground rent when you live on an estate that's managed, and the gardening and stuff, and it's just so horrific. And if I encounter any kind of front-end customer service that's like a query-raising portal, I'm thinking it's going to be that bad taste in my mouth straight away because it looks the same, but I haven't been burnt. Will it be the bogey?
Sandra:
Will it be bogey or the sick? Or will it be the dishwater? Who knows?
Sandra:
Stinky socks!
Clare:
Stinky socks. Oh, God.
Sandra:
I could be here all week.
Clare:
Oh, my God, they're that bad.
Sandra:
I was laughing the whole time. It's really very unprofessional.
Clare:
And you haven't eaten them yourself either.
Sandra:
Why would I set myself up, Clare? Goodness sake.
Clare:
Not going to Beanboozle yourself. So, I'd obviously seen you, like, talking a lot about Beanboozled and obviously heard the feedback. I didn't know that that was Beanboozled, but that's good to make that connection. Obviously, I saw a lot of people talking about your workshop on LinkedIn and the beans. But you've also been talking about the rider and the elephant. I saw some posts with that picture in the background. I think maybe you were doing a keynote speech somewhere. What's that about?
Sandra:
So, this is actually a theory. It's a metaphor that was written by a gentleman called Jonathan Haidt. He is an American psychologist, and he wrote a book called The Happiness Hypothesis. And he creates this metaphor of the elephant, six ton and the rider, 100 pounds or whatever they weigh. And he talks about how the unconscious, or less conscious mind is the elephant, and the conscious mind is the rider. And if people can visualize that as the brain, then they can understand why they make irrational emotional decisions. Because in order for you to move the elephant, it's going to go when it wants to. And the rider isn't really in control, because unless you are able to motivate the elephant, it's not going anywhere unless you get things out of the elephant's way.
Sandra:
The rider is going to struggle to get the elephant to make progress. It's the reason why when we write lists of pros and cons, and the cons list is as long as your arm, but we do that thing anyway, and then we post-rationalize it. That's the elephant in play. And so The Happiness Hypothesis is a phenomenal book. Jonathan Haidt and that visualization of the elephant and the Rider, I think, helps people understand that if they design something, in adverted commas, logical, unless it's elephant proof, it ain't going nowhere, mate. It's very powerful.
Clare:
That makes me think about my connection with my horse, Buster, who you know very well as a horse rider, and I've definitely kind of seen that metaphor in action. So, with the reality of riding a horse that has its own mind, that spooks at things and you can't always control it, they react faster than you can. I don't know, Buster. It's like stupid things, like a squirrel will absolutely petrify him, but you could walk past a huge lorry and he'll be fine. But being able to control my own anxiety when my horse is experiencing anxiety, I'm figuring out actually the way I'm feeling really affects him and having to be that rider of the horse, in this case.
Clare:
You have to be in control of your own emotions to do that. But also the reactionary nature of the horse. He doesn't know any better, does he? They're like flight or fright programmed. But honestly, I see so much of myself in him, his sudden reactions, and especially at the moment he only goes out every other day because the winter fields, the weather is really bad. They don't want to ruin the grazing and they closed them for two weeks recently. So, he's been really stressed, like standing inside his stable most of the day. I take him out a couple of times a day and then his reactions are even worse because he's not getting to go and be a normal horse and go and graze and things. And I'm like, oh my God, that is just like me if I've not been taking care of myself and doing the things that I know are good for me, like exercising or going for walks, being in nature and the same, my reactions go so much faster as well.
Clare:
But what's all that got to do with customer experience?
Sandra:
Well, it's a reminder, isn't it, that we are complicated, wonderful, incredible creatures and we're driven by the experiences we've had, the memories of the experience, the meaning we attach to stuff, and we've really got to consider that. I suppose my message really is, please think about the illogical and how we're wired because you're far more able to connect to people if you don't put them in a straitjacket. I mean, that's the bottom line, really. You've got to think about giving people choice, but not too much. And just be aware that we're incredible people. We've just got to be managed in a way that comes back to autonomy, purpose and you know, Daniel Pink talks about it. Think of those three things. Check out his book Drive, and you won't go wrong.
Clare:
Yeah, and that was one of the key messages from the Women in CX conference, wasn't it? That we're becoming the movement for human-centred business. And there's so much talk of technology, artificial intelligence, automation, but without that kind of solid human understanding and the desire to respond to human needs and problems, all of that stuff is never going to be as effective, is it?
Message from WiCX Founder & CEO, Clare:
Sorry to interrupt your listening, but I just wanted to take a break to tell you a little bit more about WiCX. We’re the world’s first online membership community for women in Customer Experience, our mission is clear, and that’s to unleash the power of women to lead the future of human-centred business.
Working in CX can feel lonely at times. We’re often singlehandedly trying to change the way that organisations think and behave about customers.
On our paid platform, discover a vibrant tribe of female professionals, find support from knowledgeable peers, learn best practices from experts and practitioners, and be inspired to up your game through leading-edge CX/EX thinking.
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I really hope I get to see you there soon!
Clare:
So, what do you think of the current state of CX? Like where we are right now? I know we talked about a lot of the themes at the conference, but what are your thoughts on it?
Sandra:
It feels like, I think next year, I think there could be far more emphasis on community than vendor. And what do I mean by that? Vendors, of course, still have a role to play because they enable CX. But something was mentioned to me last week which really stopped me in my tracks, and I hadn't thought of it before. There was a suggestion made last week when I was over in the States that vendors have described and articulated what customer experience is for the purposes of selling their technology and now is the time for people who have worked in this space to take the lead and to rearticulate what that thing is. And that really blew my mind, because if you think about it, it might potentially encourage organizations to stop thinking tech first. They'll be thinking about what CX is and how it is both human and technology. And it's also around, many of us are long in the tooth in this CX space, so we've.
Clare:
Well, as long in the tooth as we can be. It's not been around that long.
Sandra:
But there are people, the people that I met last week, especially, who've been around in this space for 20 odd years, they know what works and what doesn't. And of course, tech does have its space. But I think that it's time now, more important than ever, for the human to be first and the technology to support the human and not the other way around. I don't really know how else to articulate it, and I'm not sure if I've got my point across here, but I do think that I'm hoping it will be. This is my wish. It will happen next year, where different conversations will happen, and vendors perhaps might consider a different position for themselves. That's what I think I might be hoping for. I don't know if that is what will happen, but that's what I think I hope for.
Clare:
That's interesting. I think my spin on it would be that a lot of experiences become the outcome of technology decisions, and that's become more noticeable in outcome metrics. So, like the most recent UK CSI is saying it's going backwards. It's like 56% of people would still rather talk to a human than go through digital processes. Not because they don't want to use digital or digital couldn't be amazing, but what we're seeing is bad digital experiences replacing human contact, but not in a way that serves the needs of the people using them. So, like “Let’s channel switch, we want to reduce cost”. Therefore, here are all these solutions we can do to do that. But they haven't been designed to meet the needs or even queries, sometimes of customers or agents even, on the flip side.
Clare:
And I suppose it's no coincidence that CX tech is set to become a $38 billion industry in the next couple of years. And the majority of investment in CX is going into technology enablement rather than maybe necessarily like resources into research and design, and being able to guide the roadmaps for the technologies that are implemented. So, I guess that would be, I'm not too sure whether say like tech vendors or particularly tech vendors in measurement are going to be helping organizations to focus more on the action that comes from insight and data or the architecture of the solution, whether it's AI, better chatbots because of generative AI. But my one thing I've been talking about, well, probably for the last three or four years, and will continue to talk about is just that gap in the middle of understanding the needs of the user or the customer or the humans in this, the problems that they're trying to solve, being super clear about that, and delivering technology solutions to meet their needs, which will also deliver that business benefit that you're looking for, but in isolation, just going for the cost saving. It can be both. You can do both, understand the people, deliver something better, get an even greater return, but just that time and investment in human understanding, research ,and design, I think maximize any investment that's made in technology.
Sandra:
And you've hit the nail on the head. If I think about a timeline, I'm thinking that vendors have gone along and they've been selling this stuff, and that's all good, and it's made improvements, or it's created metrics that have sometimes improved, sometimes not necessarily created the transformation necessary. I'm hoping that, as you've just articulated, vendors will do the very thing that CX, when it's done well, is they will have the conversation with the CX pros to understand how the next phase of tech will fit with, rather than the organization fitting with the technology. It's how the organization will have its needs met through the technology. So, I suppose it's reversing the relationship and the agenda not being set by the tech, but by the community.
Clare:
But the interesting thing is, because obviously I work a lot with vendors. I'm very grateful that I get to work with them. But a lot of the clients in this mix aren't to do with customer experience. They're often like data analysts or technology teams. So, I don't think the CX people on the business side are necessarily close enough to helping to guide that process or that decision-making because of the main benefit of technology is data and analytics, right? So, a lot of the reason that companies are so keen and see return on that investment data is infinitely valuable, isn't it? So there's a clear business case for cost reduction and benefit of data, but we just need to get closer to those conversations. And again, that's my call to action, is helping your company with a target experience that if you're not involved in that conversation, at least the organization understands what we're trying to get to for customers and employees. And being able to question does that fit with that? Does that help us to get there? And that's absent in 99% of CX teams.
Clare:
Yeah. Anyway, I'll get off my little high horse. Yeah. So, what’s your prediction then? You think vendors are going to be more interested in community and responding to community?
Sandra:
Well, I think it's probably a wish list rather than a prediction.
Clare:
Okay. Do you have any predictions? Not necessarily on the vendor stuff, but any kind of future predictions? That time of year, isn't it?
Sandra:
It's that time of year. I do think that there will be further investigation into AI. It's a very hot topic for lots of organizations, so I think they'll try and find out how it can help because it's the shiny thing. And certainly, from conversations I've been having, the idea of empathy and what empathy is, is increasing slowly but surely. So, I think that could be an accurate prediction of empathy happening more, however that's manifest. Yeah, I think that's all I've got for now. I guess I'm so responsive to the things that I'm hearing that excite me. I'm just biased by picking out the things that I wish for rather than the things that could practically happen.
Clare:
Let's be honest, I'm trying to think. I've been asked by a couple of media partners like what my predictions are. Well, been thinking about it, but I think the one for me around AI is that I think the value is already being perceived to be greater on the agent side. So empowering agents with Generative AI than it is to try to bring generative AI directly to the customer and the responses in there.
Sandra:
Yeah.
Clare:
So, I think we're going to see a greater impact from generative AI that's positive in agent support for customer service rather than front-end interaction. And I suppose, yeah, my wish list a million times is that rather than technology or software being so sales-driven in terms of getting clients to buy it, that vendors would invest more in onboarding and customer success to ensure that they're aware of some of these factors like CX design or target experience, vision creation, that helps their clients to leverage the maximum value out of doing any of these things. And whether that's on the employee or the customer side, that they're going to get on board with the movement for human-centred business. I think that's more of the wish than it is the prediction anyway.
Sandra:
The audacious ambition.
Clare:
I know people listening can't see this.
Sandra:
There it is.
Clare:
I've got it written all over. Audacious as well is on there. The merchandise shop is now open. Authentic, inclusive, collaborative, audacious, authentic. That's who we are. So, with all that in mind, what do you think our listeners should be focusing on in the here and now then, in order to meet the challenges ahead?
Sandra:
Yeah, so I think something that came out from the conference, actually, the WiCX conference in October, is to stand firm. Is to stand firm in what they believe is the right solution for the organization and to have realistic expectations on how quickly people can come around to the right way of thinking about customer experience. I do think that there is more. I just believe that there will be more opportunity for customer experience people to influence when they gain more confidence. And the stuff that you're doing, especially in the CX space for women and also as the community grows, is to give people the confidence to do that. It really feels like the perfect storm for people to stand in that space and to keep banging the drum, tell the story in a different way, and use different techniques to get people just to understand what it is and what it can do. So, I think it's believing in yourself and having confidence and reaching out to others to keep that confidence topped up because it's a hard gig.
Clare:
Yeah, I agree with you. I think confidence in this, particularly for women, is a critical capability, would you say, or skill to build. Is confidence a skill? I'm not sure, but for me, it's coupled with probably not the right word. What would you say the right word for that is confidence?
Sandra:
I think it is a characteristic and I think it might be a skill. Actually…
Clare:
It's something that can change and grow. You can learn for sure and can be improved. But I think for me, that goes hand in hand with organizational understanding, environmental radar impact and influence. And I guess my wish for 2024 for CX professionals, people who do CX, is just to come back to reality and think more about how do we deliver value here and now. So, less focus on big long-term strategic transformation and more focus on what are the biggest problems that we can solve for our customers and our business and our employees now and deliver impact within the next twelve months, or even like shorter term than that, how do we go after and fix or add to innovation that's already going to be invested in within the business? So rather than trying to take on a business case for CX on its own, in isolation. We're just going, how can we apply what we do to projects that are already funded to ensure that there's a bigger impact? And how do we ensure that the projects that the business is going after are ones that actually solve or create more value for the humans within the organization?
Sandra:
So just to build on that, because actually, this is something I've been talking about for probably a couple of years now, but it we went out of my mind when you asked me the question. Sorry, no, you just popped out the financial literacy acumen, the business acumen of understanding profit and loss balance sheet, how money works in the organization. Now, I think it's an important thing. I don't know how many customer experience people, how many people who work in this space have conversations with their financial department or their financial director or whoever it might be, but when they get into a new role, or even if they are talking about the approved budgets, it's getting that lexicon, getting that language, being able to start speaking in that language. So it is, to your point, how does the skill that I've got, and my team has got, how can we help to achieve the business strategy? And let's pick off some things that will be, don't like the word quick wins, but will give immediate kudos to CX. So, it's going where the issues are and where things that are important to the board, if you can.
Clare:
Yeah. So, to build on that, for me, I think CX metrics are part of the problem. So, CX teams focusing on things like satisfaction, NPS sometimes, that being the key metric that they're getting measured or bonus against, and the organization has been bonused against, rather than understanding, actually, there's a suite of metrics, and those CX ones are often just an outcome metric. So, when we're working on these opportunities, how do we ensure that we're measuring impact not just on customer, but on the financial metrics as well? Operational efficiency, that kind of thing. But the good news is, Sandra, I know that we announced it at the conference, but we are building the WiCX Practical Magic courses for our community in 2024, and it's basically got three modules to it with sub-modules within them. One is absolutely about me and how to build confidence and resilience as an individual.
Clare:
One is about what are the future fundamentals of customer experience. So, not trying to replace what exists already, because there are loads of courses on CX, but what are the future capabilities we need to understand? And then thirdly, is this, how do I navigate the organization to implement that commercial awareness, that business acumen, that ability to engage and influence stakeholders because they're the bits that are missing, right? Not the CX course skills of how to do a journey map. Like, everybody who's been in CX for a while has those skills, but actually, how do we do the parts around it that mean we're going to be successful? And also in 2024, I'm going to be launching, finally….
Sandra:
Drum roll.
Clare:
Yeah. Women in CX Certified CX Designer course. So, I'm going to be teaching women my methodology and enabling them to get certified on how to apply themselves in customer experience design in 2024, too.
Sandra:
There it is, ladies and gentlemen.
Clare:
Sign yourself up. A shameless little plug for Women in CX there. But it is our podcast.
Sandra:
No, it's good and brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant.
Clare:
So, I've only got two questions left. And I suppose in this conversation, we've talked a lot about predictions for 2024. What's on the horizon for Sandra Thompson? What are your predictions for yourself in 2024? What are you going to be up to?
Sandra:
So, more employee experience, more highly emotive sensory training. I'm loving that. And when I get so much out of it, and it seems that participants do as well, and I'm working on something that probably is going to take me a year to do, but it's going to be a book in the employee experience space, but with a twist that I can't reveal yet, but it's bringing all of the things that I'm interested in together with a bunch of stuff that I know is effective in employee experience. So, that's in my spare time, Clare. I'm going to be writing a book.
Clare:
Yeah.
Sandra:
I've been talking about it for years and I've never got around to it. I even spoke to Matt about it, Matt Watkinson. And he's like, right, great. Tell me when you get to this bit. And I'm like, oh, I've changed the idea now to something else, but now I think I'm settled on employee experience with a twist.
Clare:
Yeah. But knowing Matt, I'm sure he would have said start with structure, Sandra.
Sandra:
That's right. He absolutely did.
Clare:
Yeah. So excited. Having written a book myself and never published it, I know how much work it is, especially during your spare time, but best of luck with that. Sure. It's going to be incredible. And, yeah, final question. What one piece of advice or a top takeaway would you like to leave the Women in CX audience with today?
Sandra:
I think that. Oh, Crikey. So, I'm actually going to put my emotional intelligence hat back on for a second, and I'm going to invite you to really take a moment every day, if you can, just to be still. Because in the last six months, I have consciously escaped and been still with no distractions whatsoever. And I come back to myself and that's when I realize I can make better decisions. And I know it's really obvious and I know people talk about it a lot, but just please, just put even half an hour in your diary once a week just to be quiet, to come back to yourself, because it really does help you think clearly. It really helps you to be grounded, and it really does help you to recharge. If that works for you, then just give it a go.
Sandra:
If it doesn't work for you because you end up filling your brain with all sorts of other stuff, don't do it anymore. But please give that a go.
Clare:
And practically, how would we do that?
Sandra:
Practically, you turn everything off and you'd probably go for a walk. You'd probably go for a walk. Get away from your desk. A mindful walk. Get away from your desk. Leave your phone, if you dare, at your house or in your office, and just breathe deeply.
Clare:
Yeah, and I can second that. I keep leaving my phone at home when I go to see Buster, so I just get to enjoy him and go out and be in nature with him.
Sandra:
You're more present.
Clare:
It just feels like a total rest and not having notifications, even if it's just for a day of the week, switching everything off, it feels like a week's holiday by just not being reactive to digital especially.
Sandra:
That's it. And I think our nervous systems have taken enough of a battering. If you can make that a routine, then you make it a habit, then I really do think that you will feel like you are getting some clarity and you're making that choice to do it.
Clare:
Yeah. But half an hour walk in nature with your phone at home sounds like a perfect piece of advice for our audience. So, I’d just like to thank you for being on the Inspiring Women in CX podcast for this second time.
Sandra:
Thank you.
Clare:
Thank you for all you bring to the community, and your workshops every year at the conference. I can't wait for 2024 and what you're going to come up with for that one. And I’d just like to thank everybody who's listened or watched along wherever you are today.
Sandra:
And, yeah, thank you.
Clare:
2024 is going to be exciting! All right, thanks, everybody. See you next time.
Sandra:
Thanks, Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Inspiring Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt.
If you enjoyed this episode and you don’t already, please, please, please do drop us a like and subscribe to our channel – the bigger the following, the bigger the impact we can create on our mission to amplify the voices of women working in CX and technology!
Well, that’s it for now! Join us again next time when I’ll be talking to the one and only Diane Magers about why CX today is failing and what we need to do about it. See you all real soon!
